Forums » The Wizard

Chain Spells

    • 22 posts
    January 10, 2017 5:45 AM PST

    Hi folks,

     

    I have played EQ and Vanguard and what I liked about Vangaurd is they introduced chain spells.  If anyone doesnt know, you have a primary spell, and either you do a combination of spells to active another spell or its becomes available ramdomly after casting a primary spell.  What are peoples thoughts about chain spells?

    • 4534 posts
    January 10, 2017 6:23 AM PST

    In the last stream, VR said they are exploring the idea of "sympathetic abilities," or abilities that are affected by one another as inspired by Vanguard. The important thing to remember is they don't want combat to be too combo-heavy because that would keep players' eyes ontheir hotbars instead of where the real action is. But a few triggered abilities here and there may be fine. Either way, they said it's too early in the refinement of the combat system to really be able to tell for sure.

    For whatever my opinion is worth, I think sympathetic abilities are pretty interesting and add an extra dimension of strategy to combat... especially if the abilities are dependent on being triggered by another class's ability. (I think they also mentioned that being a possibility as it encourages teamwork between groups.)

    • 509 posts
    January 10, 2017 8:50 AM PST

    I really like the idea of abilities chaining off of combat events. If you riposte then a specific skill might get buffed. Make it so that that skill does not require a riposte to be used, but it is buffed or changes slightly when you riposte. Do not put flashy borders on the icons. Do not put an indicator as to the fact the ability has been buffed. Instead make it so that if you riposte there is a clear animation for it that can be easily recognized by all in the group. This will shift the visual queue from the hot bar to the character. Now you need to watch the combat action on the screen very closly to get the most out of your skills. Having combos and such are fine as long as you use visual character animations or spell effects as the queue and not flashy UI elements.

    So as a Wizard, you might have a spell that causes extra damage when the target is on fire. You have another spell that causes direct damage and then has a chanc eto cause a burning status effect. When you use the second spell, it causes the target model's skin to blacken with what might look like small flames coming from the wound. This would be the grphical queue for you to use the first spell because it is now buffed. That same spell could be used at any time, but will be less effective if the target is not on fire. When playing this character I would be focusing on my target waiting to see the visual queue on the model rather than a UI element. I think this would be a fairly easy way to allow for more complex and involved combat while keeping the eye on the combat action.

    • 22 posts
    January 10, 2017 9:59 AM PST

    I like the chain spell idea, like when you get a critical off a damage spell you have like a 2 second change to cast an instance Concussion chain spell (IE hate reduction spell).  The catch is that you have to noticed the character animation and react to it.  I like chain spells where its action for the specific character which cause the chain to activate.  I am not really a fan of having chain spells occur from other members in your group, since this might cause certain classes less opportunity to find a group because they dont cause valuable chain spell opportunities.

    • 2010 posts
    January 10, 2017 10:46 AM PST

    kellindil said:

    Do not put an indicator as to the fact the ability has been buffed. Instead make it so that if you riposte there is a clear animation for it that can be easily recognized by all in the group. This will shift the visual queue from the hot bar to the character. Now you need to watch the combat action on the screen very closly to get the most out of your skills. Having combos and such are fine as long as you use visual character animations or spell effects as the queue and not flashy UI elements.

    I like this in theory.  Animations to make you watch the combat instead of a hotkey sounds good. I do wonder if it would work well in reality? 

    On raids with a lot of people I can only imagine the mess of special combat animations going off at once.  I usually turn off particle effects because it is such a giant explosion of colors that it makes it difficult to see.  With this idea I'm concerned I would have to have effects turned on and I would have to stare at it and try to pick out one specific effect in all of the explosions.  Heck, a lot of times I prefer to look at the ground on large raids in order to minimize lag.

    I like the idea in theory...but the implementation is what concerns me.


    This post was edited by philo at January 10, 2017 11:07 AM PST
    • 4534 posts
    January 10, 2017 10:54 AM PST

    philo said:

    kellindil said:

    Do not put an indicator as to the fact the ability has been buffed. Instead make it so that if you riposte there is a clear animation for it that can be easily recognized by all in the group. This will shift the visual queue from the hot bar to the character. Now you need to watch the combat action on the screen very closly to get the most out of your skills. Having combos and such are fine as long as you use visual character animations or spell effects as the queue and not flashy UI elements.

    I like this in theory.  Animations to make you watch the combat instead of a hotkey sounds good. I do wonder if it would work well in reality? 

    On raids with a lot of people I can only imagine the mess of special combat animations going off at once.  I usually turn off partical effects because it is such a giant explosion of colors that it makes it difficult to see.  With this idea I'm concerned I would have to have effects turned on and I would have to stare at it and try to pick out one specific effect in all of the explosions.  Heck, a lot of times I prefer to look at the ground on large raids in order to minimize lag.

    I like the idea in theory...but the implementation is what concerns me.

    I think it's a good enough idea to investigate further. I seem to remember VR saying they were going to try to keep particle effects minimal so that you can see what is going better rather than just watching fireworks. But still, even if there's just 4 people piled on top of one another, it would be difficult to tell who is who. I doubt there's any reasonable riposte animation that would be so identifiable. And also, what do you do about 1st vs. 3rd person view? I'm intrigued though. 

    • 509 posts
    January 10, 2017 11:04 AM PST

    The way I see it, is that the interdependance would come from grouping itself. Instead of getting a bonus when a specific class casts a spell. It would be your spell gets a bonus when the target is under this effect, regardless of who caused the effect.

    The trick is to spread out these abilities, not making any one class the linch pin to anothers success, but in some cases making it a bit easier to buff their damage. A Druid as a support role might have abilities that will grant a burning status, a poisoned status, etc. The Ranger being a hybrid between a Warrior and Druid, might have the same abilities only slightly weaker versions (the damage compnent is weaker, the debuff is the same regardless). An Enchanter has stun abilities and weaken spells that would maybe cause effects like fumble so that melee might riposte or parry more for a short duration against the target. The same would go for the Cleric possibly. There is enough wiggle room to give multiple classes the same abilties without muddying the water. 

    A Wizard might have status effects like burning, freezing, and stun. All focusing around the more elemental nature of the Wizard (assuming thats how the class plays). The Wizard being a DPS, the debuffs are a % chance on happening.

    A Druid might also have burning and freezing, but not stun. Instead they might get disease. The Druid being a support class / priest class these special status might be longer lasting results of DoTs.

    A Ranger, as a support class, might get someof the same abilties as the druid. Say disease and poison as the Ranger shares the Druid nature attuned aspect, but is more practical. He knows more about poisons and diseases and much less about controlling the environment. But the Ranger might have melee oriented abilities that cause a stun or some other disorient status

    A Priest might get stun, enfeeblement, and a special ability that is effective against undead called decay (just making things up here) that would cause a weaken affect specifically for undead as their strength is magicaly not natural and the only way they would get "weaker" is for their physical body to begin to become less structurally sound. Same as above with the Druid as a priest class the status lasts longer than if the DPS class had triggered it themselves.

    An Enchanter might get stun, enfeeblment, and a special status effect against summoned or enchanted creatures (golems, constructs, etc). 

    A Rogue as a pure DPS might have abilities that have a small % chance to cause enfeeblement which may allow their special ability that can trigger off a riposte happen because a weaker opponent is easier to counter. They also have an ability that allows them to apply poison to their weapons, these poisons might become more effective if the target is diseased debuffed as their immune system is compromised, thus allowing for the Rogue's poison damage to be increased.

    Some abilities will overlap. No one class would cause the bet group make up. The system would just need to be carefully designed. Some classes will have more synergies with some classes than others, but there should not come a time when a Wizard is only useful in a group if they have a Druid. With enough for thought and careful design a system such as this could work. Allowing group triggered status effects that can cause reactive combos for other group members.

    I'm not advocating this elaborate a system in the game. This might make the game become more or a button mashing actiony combat style which I don't think anyone is really looking for here. My point is that, if carefully designed and well thoughtout a group wide interdependant combat triggering system could work. You just need to find a way to make the effect/skill combos generic enough that the status effect could come from almost any class in the group. 

     

    • 509 posts
    January 10, 2017 11:12 AM PST

    philo said:

    I like this in theory.  Animations to make you watch the combat instead of a hotkey sounds good. I do wonder if it would work well in reality? 

    On raids with a lot of people I can only imagine the mess of special combat animations going off at once.  I usually turn off partical effects because it is such a giant explosion of colors that it makes it difficult to see.  With this idea I'm concerned I would have to have effects turned on and I would have to stare at it and try to pick out one specific effect in all of the explosions.  Heck, a lot of times I prefer to look at the ground on large raids in order to minimize lag.

    I like the idea in theory...but the implementation is what concerns me.

    In DAoC, the combat was like this. This is where I got the idea from honestly. Many classes had abilities that could be used after having parried or some such. Originally there was no indicator the ability was usable. You would just watch for your character to parry, then react. Later on they did add a slight glow around the icon but even then I never looked at the hot bar. I always watched the animation queues.

    • 2010 posts
    January 10, 2017 11:18 AM PST

    That was a lot of good examples.  Do you have any thoughts on ways it might be implemented better than watching combat animations?

    Bazgrim and I are on the same page when he said:                                                                                                                                                                                                                       "even if there's just 4 people piled on top of one another, it would be difficult to tell who is who. I doubt there's any reasonable riposte animation that would be so identifiable. And also, what do you do about 1st vs. 3rd person view? I'm intrigued though. "

    It seems like there could be a better way for the player who needs to react to get that information more clearly?

    Edit..it looks like you already addressed this:)


    This post was edited by philo at January 10, 2017 11:19 AM PST
    • 509 posts
    January 10, 2017 11:18 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    philo said:

    kellindil said:

    Do not put an indicator as to the fact the ability has been buffed. Instead make it so that if you riposte there is a clear animation for it that can be easily recognized by all in the group. This will shift the visual queue from the hot bar to the character. Now you need to watch the combat action on the screen very closly to get the most out of your skills. Having combos and such are fine as long as you use visual character animations or spell effects as the queue and not flashy UI elements.

    I like this in theory.  Animations to make you watch the combat instead of a hotkey sounds good. I do wonder if it would work well in reality? 

    On raids with a lot of people I can only imagine the mess of special combat animations going off at once.  I usually turn off partical effects because it is such a giant explosion of colors that it makes it difficult to see.  With this idea I'm concerned I would have to have effects turned on and I would have to stare at it and try to pick out one specific effect in all of the explosions.  Heck, a lot of times I prefer to look at the ground on large raids in order to minimize lag.

    I like the idea in theory...but the implementation is what concerns me.

    I think it's a good enough idea to investigate further. I seem to remember VR saying they were going to try to keep particle effects minimal so that you can see what is going better rather than just watching fireworks. But still, even if there's just 4 people piled on top of one another, it would be difficult to tell who is who. I doubt there's any reasonable riposte animation that would be so identifiable. And also, what do you do about 1st vs. 3rd person view? I'm intrigued though. 

     

    The First vs Third person view is easily solved. If you parry, you bring the weapon up to block, then push away the attacker's weapon. This would cause a (assumingly) metal clash, an the weapons would interlock in the camera view. This would be your queue. Now for a status effect like burning, look for the scrotched skin.

    And these visual queues do not have to be huge flashy bursts of light. If someone is stunned you see a small halo of stars around the head for a few seconds. If someone dodges they jump to one side. If they are burning, or maybe smoldering would be better, then their skin might turn a blackish red color. Thats one partical effect (stars) one character animation (dodge) and a texture change (smoldering). I don't think that would be too much going on to see the action on the screen.

    • 2010 posts
    January 10, 2017 11:25 AM PST

    It reminds me of the burglar group abilities in lotro.  Though that wasn't based off of combat animations...and it involved multiple group members that all had to react and work together to provide the best outcome.

    Thinking about how that ^ worked, there might be potential for an even more advanced combat triggering system with multiple reactions in a chain.

     

    Edit:  Not that this is necessarily a bad thing...but thinking how I play, I wouldn't want to miss a combat trigger.  I would probably make a chat window just for combat...or preferably, just for combat triggers specifically, and end up staring at the combat chat window instead of the combat itself.


    This post was edited by philo at January 10, 2017 11:32 AM PST
    • 509 posts
    January 10, 2017 11:30 AM PST

    I cannot really think of a good way other than animations or maybe audio queues for the melee type, but honestly thats fairly few. Stun would be a very small sublte partical effect. Parry is easy, you character just blocks with the weapon. Dodge your character would jump to the side. Riposte might be the character do a sort of parry animation, but then attack with the off hand weapon? These could even be class specific. A Monk might riposte by kicking the weapon away then following it up with another kick.

    I'm sure if VR decided to add this sort of system in they have the creative talent to make the animations work. They just need to be unique or obvious enough to see if you are bunched up around people.

    I think also the issue of "4 people stacked ontop of each other" wouldn't be an issue. People would spread out naturally so that they can see their animation qeues. Thats exactly what we did in DAoC. Though many of the abilities for several classes were also positional so we were constantly shifting position depending on what was happening.

    I really think that something like this could really spice up combat and build even more on the interdependance aspect.

    • 509 posts
    January 10, 2017 11:36 AM PST

    philo said:

    It reminds me of the burglar group abilities in lotro.  Though that wasn't based off of combat animations...and it involved multiple group members that all had to react and work together to provide the best outcome.

    Thinking about how that ^ worked, there might be potential for an even more advanced combat triggering system with multiple reactions in a chain.

    Yea but that relied on UI elements that you had to watch for and is almost as bad as flashy hot bar buttons. Maybe the target could be animated in such a way that it would trigger the group combat queues. If someone is riposted their weapon would swing wide, leaving them open. It should be as simple as animating a slight shift of stance and the weapon arm going wide outside then reutrning to a normal position. That would be a very good queue that the target had just been riposted by someone. 

    Between sublte partical effects, small shifts in texture, audio queues and visual animation queues I believe there would be enough to support this type of system without the need of flashy UI elements.

    • 2010 posts
    January 10, 2017 11:39 AM PST

    I edited my above post to include this...but posts are coming quick here so I'll point it out.  I'm not sure if this kind of thing is a concern or not?

    Not that this is necessarily a bad thing...but thinking how I play, I wouldn't want to miss a combat trigger.  I would probably make a chat window just for combat...or preferably, just for combat triggers specifically, and end up staring at the combat chat window instead of the combat itself.

    Maybe I'm a masochist?


    This post was edited by philo at January 10, 2017 11:43 AM PST
    • 22 posts
    January 10, 2017 12:15 PM PST

    The major hiccup to this all is Raiding, where sometimes folks are force to bunch up on each other to hide from a frontal blast or what have you.  Also, in a raid situation sound and animation becomes a real problem, especially if the raid limits are high.  In a 6 man group, I think all of your suggestions work Philo, its just in a raid where some of those ideas start to not work as well, espeically based on folks strength of computer where some folks only option to play without lagging out is to look directly at the ground.

    • 2010 posts
    January 10, 2017 12:25 PM PST

    Jonstorm said:

    The major hiccup to this all is Raiding, where sometimes folks are force to bunch up on each other to hide from a frontal blast or what have you.  Also, in a raid situation sound and animation becomes a real problem, especially if the raid limits are high.  In a 6 man group, I think all of your suggestions work Philo, its just in a raid where some of those ideas start to not work as well, espeically based on folks strength of computer where some folks only option to play without lagging out is to look directly at the ground.

    I agree...but they were killindils suggestions.  Like I mentioned above.  I think I would probably end up staring at the combat window, even in 1 group situations, in order to better see the combat triggers.

    The idea of chaining spells and combat triggers is one I enjoy as far as the gameplay.  I'm unsure about the best way to implement them. I don't have an issue with your hotkey lighting up but I guess that is a thing that some people don't like.

    • 75 posts
    January 10, 2017 5:18 PM PST

    Well, if you want this to be a grouping MMO, make it work like LOTRO's fellowship manuevers. That truly opens this up as a full-fledged system:

    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Fellowship_Manoeuvre

    Note that I am mainly referring to the cross-player integration of multiple ways to initiate/cause sequences and funneling that into a common handling system (you affect each other depending on what sequence you perform) and breadth of triggering and combination chains possible, more than the particular way LOTRO did it all. But having a visual wheel or similar (with keymapping possible for wheel positions) to aid in selecting what to perform is important for timing, keymapping and such sake. Purely visual recogntion of a animation, or purely twitch reaction to it would be counter to the supposed goal of playing by keyboard and not twitch.

     

    In LOTRO, every visual element involved in manuevers was keymappable - the choice of which color to perform, retarget if not targeted alreadt, etc. You could play it 100% mouse or 100% keyboard.


    This post was edited by redgiant at January 10, 2017 5:28 PM PST
    • 1165 posts
    January 10, 2017 6:29 PM PST

    I like the idea of these chains, but it seems like a situation where I'd end up just watching the hotbar again and waiting for things to be available.  Even if you have these animations, I feel like watching the hotbar would be more efficient.  I like the idea of the synergies from the Living Codex, but I hope they aren't set up so I need to be riveted to the hotbar, or to the character of the other class, so I don't miss the little animations.  I want to spend less time looking at the hotbar, not more.

     

    redgiant said:
    Well, if you want this to be a grouping MMO, make it work like LOTRO's fellowship manuevers. That truly opens this up as a full-fledged system:
    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Fellowship_Manoeuvre
    Note
    that I am mainly referring to the cross-player integration of multiple ways to initiate/cause sequences and funneling that into a common handling system (you affect each other depending on what sequence you perform) and breadth of triggering and combination chains possible, more than the particular way LOTRO did it all. But having a visual wheel or similar (with keymapping possible for wheel positions) to aid in selecting what to perform is important for timing, keymapping and such sake. Purely visual recogntion of a animation, or purely twitch reaction to it would be counter to the supposed goal of playing by keyboard and not twitch.
     
    In LOTRO, every visual element involved in manuevers was keymappable - the choice of which color to perform, retarget if not targeted alreadt, etc. You could play it 100% mouse or 100% keyboard.

     

    I followed that link, and this system does seem neat.  I guess they just need to find a way to implement things like this without forcing you to stare at your hotbar, but also without having big UI bits popping up all over the place.  Now that I think about it, some game I played in the past few years used animations like the ones mentioned above...maybe Archeage or SWTOR.  There was one where the mob/character runs back and forth burning and another where the mob/character is sick and vomits.  They were pretty obvious and hard to miss, but at that point you might be better off with the UI bits like in that LOTRO system.

     

    EDIT:  Replied to redgiant and expanded original reply.


    This post was edited by Shucklighter at January 10, 2017 6:41 PM PST
    • 1776 posts
    January 12, 2017 8:40 AM PST

    philo said: ...

    I like the idea in theory...but the implementation is what concerns me.

    Agreed on implementation concerns.  To keep the load down regarding overlays, ground glyphs, or similar, I would propose something like...

    Amplification, Sympathetic effects, or exploitation of status effects.

    The highlights are:  When you are playing your role, you're rewarded.  The more you play your role, the more you're rewarded.  The idea is that you can overwrite or replace someone elses status effect, with extra detrimental effects on the target.  Also, you can amplify, cause a sympathetic effect or exploit existing status icons, both yours and that of another class.

    A simple example would be something like.. if your class can snare, but your snare has a higher percentage.  You see the snare on the target, you cast yours, now as a bonus, at the moment of being overwritten, the target it stunned for 1 second, or interrupted if spellcasting, or is rooted, muted, or paralyzed momentarily.  However, if you have the 'best' snare, that can only happen once per fight, or until yours wears off.

    Similarly for root.  If you have a root, and someone else has a better root, you place yours on (communication with your team) first, the other class puts theirs on, and this creates an aoe root effect.

    You could tie in the magnitude of these effects to the environment, such that if you wanted larger plant-related effects, the druid can create a rainy environment.  If you want greater fire related effects, perhaps you want it sunny or scorching, cold amplification would be blizzard or freezing.

    So, this accomplishes a few things, but requires a few things.  It creates teamwork, and strictly by using your skills or casting your spells, you're rewarded, and moreso if you communicate and arrange an order for things.  It also makes others keenly aware of everyone elses skills and abilities, so they can work together with strategy and knowledge.

    Other classes may be able to refresh or remove and re-apply status effects, either with shorter duration but greater magnitude, or combine them in some way with their own, or change their resist check, or similar.

    The only additional sort of caveat is that if you have resistances/immunities and weaknesses to damage types (both magic and melee) you need to be able to discern these resistances either before combat without aggro, or during combat extremely quickly so you can inform the team what to use.  This is only required if these types of resistances and weaknesses vary greatly within a species, race, or target type.  If it's well known that all undead have a weakness to fire, that's fine, but if you find undead that are fire immune or fire resistant, you need to be able to determine what they're susceptible to. 

    Personally, I think Wizards (and magicians & enchanters) have a role to play there, being typically associated with Intelligence, Arcane, and Scholarly subjects.  It also adds a dimension of horizontal progression if, after fighting creatures for a certain amount of time, you gain "Weakness Insight" or "Assessment" as an ability for those creature types, or after collecting related tomes or research on the subject via quests or loot.

    The downside for Wizards is that historically, we don't offer much in the way of status effects.  However, Simply by using spells damage of a certain type, it could create a status effect of that type on the target.  Ice damage = a freezing effect, fire = burning, lightning = electrocuted, etc.

    There has also been discussion of Rogues or other classes being able to detrimentally "rip" status effects off a creature, with expontentially increasing damage for each removed effect.  The idea is a sort of "coup de grace" if a mob is below a certain amount of health and loaded up with 10+ status effects, each one "ripped" could remove either a percentage or static value, and if successful, the creature dies instantly.  However, if they do not die, the Rogue gets all that aggro. :)

    I'm also a fan of co-ordination attacks or group spells having a significantly reduced mana cost, for casters, or returning mana as a beneficial effect.

    • 52 posts
    January 27, 2017 4:15 AM PST

    I'm all about unique class mechanics.

    For the wizard, if he's anything like an elemental sorcerer, I'd see some sort of attunement mechanic.

    I  don't like the idea of speccing into a certain element, since the wizard would be a master of the elementS.

    I also think that strict chain spells don't suit a wizard mechanically.

    What I have thought of is something like attunement. If you cast frost skills subsequently, they will get stronger, but you also gain a risk of losing control of it and, in the frost case, just end being frozen yourself for a couple of seconds, or put yourself on fire, or release a friendly fire tornado or something like that. To avoid that, you can just stop to cast for a while or cast a (certain) spell from the opposing element to regain balance / control a little.

    Wizards are all about controlling the elements, so you as a player should be somewhat forced to do so

     

     

     

     


    This post was edited by sebbulba at January 30, 2017 4:05 AM PST