I've played a ton of MMOs starting with EQ1 back in the day. One unlikely game, runescape classic, back in about 2005 had me so addicted because of one simple element... It would take someone years to get the max level. I'm not saying it has to be that hard, but back when that game came out if you were like 60 something mining... people would be like WOW holy hell. and there were still 39 more levels to go after that. And it had one of the most awesome economies i've ever seen back then. Everything was crafted or had a ridciuously low drop rate, and a lot of it couldn't be dropped. Rune 2 handers never came out until someone finally reached the smithing level to make them. People who were mining would actually mine for HOURS and HOURS just to get enough gold to buy a single item. Not really sure what im getting at, but I would love to have that same sort of accomplishment factor knowing I actually had to put work in, and everything I was doing could be sold to someone because it was useful stuff. Everyone mined coal to level up, and everyone needed coal. It honestly was a very fun game until it spiraled downhill with its crappy membership and reengineering everything.
I am all for this to some extent. Years to max out levels or tradeskills I'm not too keen on, but it should be tough. I would also love to see dropped magical items to be VERY rare and would rather crafted items be the most common way to get gear. There should be dropped items for sure, but they should be slightly less powerful than crafted alternatives or be very rare drops from tough named bosses. The best epic loot would only drop from huge raid bosses like dragons and gods, and even then only a few select pieces. Give me a real reason to spend hours gaining skill in crafting. I might actually do crafting in the case.
If crafted gear is to ever be on par with dropped items, crafting materials need to be as challenging to obtain as their dropped counterparts. This means nodes in dangerous places or found on harder mobs.
Just don't think it's a good idea to reward player with equal crafting alternatives because they simply spent time running around hitting nodes and skilling up crafting on their own. If crafting is to really matter in a game that revolves around PvE progression, that paradigm has to die.
Dullahan said:If crafted gear is to ever be on par with dropped items, crafting materials need to be as challenging to obtain as their dropped counterparts. This means nodes in dangerous places or found on harder mobs.
Just don't think it's a good idea to reward player with equal crafting alternatives because they simply spent time running around hitting nodes and skilling up crafting on their own. If crafting is to really matter in a game that revolves around PvE progression, that paradigm has to die.
So, you're saying that someone who spends 100 RL hours getting their crafting skill maxed shouldn't reap the same level of reward that someone who spends the same amount of time grinding kills, just because the componants are readily available? Why? If I just run around hitting nodes for a week or two and sit mindlessly grinding skill I should be able to get the same benefits as those who choose to instead go mindlessly grind kills on npcs to get a drop. The difference being that that crafter could then sell their items to others, helping to create a better, more competitive economy. Crafting in most MMOs is used as nothing more than a side hobby to do when you can find anything else to do. Crafting is done for the sake of crafting and nothing more. Crafting MUST be relavent, else why even include it to begin with. You seem to think that crafting is easier for some reason. Crafting is much harder because it is much more tedious and you also have to find materials some quite rare.
kellindil said:Dullahan said:If crafted gear is to ever be on par with dropped items, crafting materials need to be as challenging to obtain as their dropped counterparts. This means nodes in dangerous places or found on harder mobs.
Just don't think it's a good idea to reward player with equal crafting alternatives because they simply spent time running around hitting nodes and skilling up crafting on their own. If crafting is to really matter in a game that revolves around PvE progression, that paradigm has to die.
So, you're saying that someone who spends 100 RL hours getting their crafting skill maxed shouldn't reap the same level of reward that someone who spends the same amount of time grinding kills, just because the componants are readily available? Why? If I just run around hitting nodes for a week or two and sit mindlessly grinding skill I should be able to get the same benefits as those who choose to instead go mindlessly grind kills on npcs to get a drop. The difference being that that crafter could then sell their items to others, helping to create a better, more competitive economy. Crafting in most MMOs is used as nothing more than a side hobby to do when you can find anything else to do. Crafting is done for the sake of crafting and nothing more. Crafting MUST be relavent, else why even include it to begin with. You seem to think that crafting is easier for some reason. Crafting is much harder because it is much more tedious and you also have to find materials some quite rare.
I agree that crafting should be relevant, I also think it shouldn't be a way to circumvent normal group based advancement in a PvE-centric game. It also don't think it has to be purely a test of endurance. Simply put, crafting materials should yield items on par with the items gained by a similar force. If you want an epic crafted item, the materials come from an epic mob or in an environment with an epic level of danger. If you want to craft a rare but powerful item, the materials should be of a similar level of rarity to dropped items of the same tier.
It's not that crafting shouldn't require time and dedication, only that it shouldn't be a means of solo progression, regardless of the time you put forth. In a social, group-centric mmo, grouping and the danger associated with it, should be involved in both acquiring the materials and creating the item.
This probably belongs in the Crafting forum, but anyway... I think it would be cool if some ingredients are very rare in some parts of the world, while they may be relatively common in other parts. For example, there may be a particular type of mushroom that is basically nonexistant in and around the area where the Gnomes live, while they may be quite plentiful where the Ogres live. It would be so cool if the market for such items fluctuates and varies across the world. That mushroom would be relatively cheap in the Ogre economy, while a Gnome may have to pay a lot to get that same mushroom because someone at some point would have had to make the dangerous journey across the world. The same principle could be applied to the skill required to harvest a certain material, if reaching such high skill level takes a serious amount of dedication. That is basically how the global economy works in the real world and I think it would be awesome if a lot of those same concepts were in Pantheon.
If the vast majority of the gear I use for years is crafted, I'll end up going to another game.
Fighting monsters. Getting loot. This is a main draw for me.
Paying random people to make me a sword, so I can go kill things to get more money to pay them to make me a slight better sword: boring.
--Gray
gray808 said:If the vast majority of the gear I use for years is crafted, I'll end up going to another game.
Fighting monsters. Getting loot. This is a main draw for me.
Paying random people to make me a sword, so I can go kill things to get more money to pay them to make me a slight better sword: boring.
--Gray
I'm pretty sure VR recognizes the importance of not having best-in-slot gear and will therefore not let this happen.
I can think of two reasonable ways for crafted gear to work:
1. Crafted gear is best in some, but not all, situations. That means that it may not be what you have equipped 24/7, but if you're gonna spend a significant amount of time in a zone with lots of undead, for example, it would be very advantageous to have an anti-undead blunt weapon that can only be acquired through crafting. We know that the devs want you to thoughtfully prepare for your upcoming battles and customize your kit appopriately. This probably means we'll be swapping out gear relatively often. Crafted gear will just be a part of this diverse arsenal. I think this approach is preferred and most likely.
2. Crafted gear is primarily useful for twinking your alts. In other words, a particular crafted sword may be pretty much the best thing you can use at level 10 within reason, but by the time you have the skill and ingredients to craft it, you will be far beyond level 10 and it will not be particularly useful for the character that made it - just your alts and/or lower level friends. Or sell for profit.
Dullahan said:If crafted gear is to ever be on par with dropped items, crafting materials need to be as challenging to obtain as their dropped counterparts. This means nodes in dangerous places or found on harder mobs.
Just don't think it's a good idea to reward player with equal crafting alternatives because they simply spent time running around hitting nodes and skilling up crafting on their own. If crafting is to really matter in a game that revolves around PvE progression, that paradigm has to die.
I hav to agree with this, and even than i would still think dropped gear should be still better especially if we are talking about end game dungeon's on a long dungeon crawling effort to get there. But back tot he point, even if they are somewhat on par the materials have to spread out vastly so you can't make it simply by farming 3 different location's on a low drop rate, eventually it will become easy simply by determination, i say to make some of these item's you'll need something that has to be earned either by a quest, or named creature that drops one of the parts required so it can become on par with the dropped items simply becuase you went through a lot to acquire it. But, if you simply just went to 2 different towns and got all the materials you needed and created an item and it is on par with the lvled gear out there than everyone will just be tradeskilling to get there gear and not camping locations and just stick themselves inside of towns and not realize there a wholewide world out there.