Is there any discussion or information regarding any strategy features for combat?
For example FF11 online had a skill combo system where certain skills would play off each other and if done with coordination the group could score some high damage combos.
Another nice feature of combat in FF11 online was the XP bonuses for chaining kills.
These types of features decrease the monotony of grinding and would love to see both of these features in Pantheon.
Short answer is yes for coop combos and no for XP bonuses as far as I know.
Just keep in mind apparently EQ2 and VG and I think LotRO had forms of group combos as well. So what form these will take and how much coordination it would require is still in question. There have been a few discussions about it, and ultimately it seems some people were worried that XIs way was a bit to rigid (and therefore not welcome) in terms of timing and potential for "required" tactics.
Amsai said:Short answer is yes for coop combos and no for XP bonuses as far as I know.
Just keep in mind apparently EQ2 and VG and I think LotRO had forms of group combos as well. So what form these will take and how much coordination it would require is still in question. There have been a few discussions about it, and ultimately it seems some people were worried that XIs way was a bit to rigid (and therefore not welcome) in terms of timing and potential for "required" tactics.
Yea ive seen this type of thing implimented in various ways. In games where its done poorly, the players typically dont use it much as it was too clunky and the advantage wasnt worth the effort. The system in EQ2 had some really good advantages if i remember right. It was definately frustrating to get in a PUG and find no one using it.
I get why some like combo point systems, but honestly I really don't. I played EQ2 for a good couple years before moving on and never did like the system. To me it just feels like another artifical confine of the game forcing me to play a certain way. Yes I get that it's optional to do the combos, but when your trying to level efficiently, it's really not an option, you must use the combos. It drove me nuts in groups and we were all racing to mash whatever button was lit up, or worse you missed a rotation and then everyone started complaining.
I'm not saying it's a game breaker for me, I will happily still play Pantheon, but I just find combo point systems (At least how it was done in EQ2) nothing more then an annoyance.
With that being said, and as much as I hate to admit it, I do like how early WoW had certain combo point finishing attacks. None of it was dependent on anone else, no flashy "Click Me, Click Me!!" type indicater (disclaimer, I realize literally everything in WoW is a flashy do whatever indicater, but it didn't use to be). Also they did things with combos for building up to do a stun of whatever else, but more importantly in my opinion, there were NO (Mash this, then this, then that) annoyances that were in EQ2. I guess, at least in the case of EQ2, that type of combo system is riddled with guides to play the way someone else wants you to. I want to play my way, no training wheels.
Amsai said: Well it could just be implemented with certain classes. Some classes don't have enough going on to even be busy enough to feel rushed. I do see where you are coming from though. The otherside of that argument is I don't want to be forced into "rotations" either. That's forcing me to play a certain way as well. But at least with a good group combo system it could be a bit more randomized.
I get and respect your end of the arguement.......buuut, isnt the combo system still just a rotation? I do get that there is a potential for more randomness, but really its not going to work that way. It is going to boil down to ability set 1, activates ability set 2 combo, which then activate ability set 3 combo....because at the end of the day they have to make a system that works for all classes, if you make it a group combo system.
Part of what drives me nuts with these kinds of systems is that I constantly have to be completely paying attention to what everyone else is doing. I'm not saying I want to AFK play, but I do like to spend a fare amount of time just getting into what I am doing, zoning out, mindlessly smash faces or even chat with people while I play. If I have flashy buttons constaintly, I get removed from whatever else I might want to do to pass the time. Some of this even lends itself to a break in immersion for myself, just watching my fellow group mates sword hack into the head of an Orc is enough for me, I don't personally need to interact with his skill othen then to also jam my dagger into said Orcs body.
Amsai said: The phrase that I like to use is that I want situations and not rotations. Surely we can get that done somehow.
Completely agree with you in that regard.
Ultimately I don't know how you could completely remove rotations, at the end of the day we only get so many abilities and logically some will work best in a specific order of mashing. /shrug
Now something I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of goes with the combo idea, would be animation queus or some type of context that will let you know a mob is now more vulnerable.
For example based on the mobs animation it may be obvious that it had been stunned, thus allowing the party's Rogue to land a well placed backstabbing for massive damage. Or a mob is disarmed briefly allowing the Warrior an opportunity to do an otherwise foolish two handed strike dealing a finishing blow. These are somewhat of a combo system, but more subtle.
I like how ArcheAge does combo systems. Instead of doing it like, use ability 1, and you combo with ability 2, it actually combos off of conditions. Some examples:
There are many ways to cause burning, or chill, or stunning, so it doesn't combo off of specific abilities. Any ability that stuns allows Bull Rush to combo for a knock down, and anyone can combo with it.
The thing I don't like about ArcheAge's system is it basically puts you in a rotation to get the maximum number of combos.
One way to prevent "rotations" from being set where you always do ability A to give a status and follow up with ability B to combo it, is have a lot of statuses only occur on critical hits. For example, a warrior could shield bash for damage and maybe stagger an opponent (causing them to be slow maybe), but if it crits it does more damage and stuns the opponent instead. Then someone could combo off of the stun with another ability.
Riply said:Now something I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of goes with the combo idea, would be animation queus or some type of context that will let you know a mob is now more vulnerable.
For example based on the mobs animation it may be obvious that it had been stunned, thus allowing the party's Rogue to land a well placed backstabbing for massive damage. Or a mob is disarmed briefly allowing the Warrior an opportunity to do an otherwise foolish two handed strike dealing a finishing blow. These are somewhat of a combo system, but more subtle.
I actually like this idea better than forced "blinky click me now" rotations like EQ2. Ive always liked the idea of a more context sensitive combat system based on visible queues or mob animations / actions, rather than watching for a debuff icon or a hotbar timer to know when to respond / act.
Related to context sensitive, I miss the days of EQ1 where you could hunt down mobs with visible weapons in their hands to loot that weapon. It would be nice to see it go a step further to be able to see and loot all items or gear equiped on the mobs. Armor, Weapons, jewelry, etc.
jeklinger99 said:Related to context sensitive, I miss the days of EQ1 where you could hunt down mobs with visible weapons in their hands to loot that weapon. It would be nice to see it go a step further to be able to see and loot all items or gear equiped on the mobs. Armor, Weapons, jewelry, etc.
OMG YES!!! This is something I really miss about EQ1.
Riply said:I get why some like combo point systems, but honestly I really don't. I played EQ2 for a good couple years before moving on and never did like the system. To me it just feels like another artifical confine of the game forcing me to play a certain way. Yes I get that it's optional to do the combos, but when your trying to level efficiently, it's really not an option, you must use the combos. It drove me nuts in groups and we were all racing to mash whatever button was lit up, or worse you missed a rotation and then everyone started complaining.
I'm not saying it's a game breaker for me, I will happily still play Pantheon, but I just find combo point systems (At least how it was done in EQ2) nothing more then an annoyance.
With that being said, and as much as I hate to admit it, I do like how early WoW had certain combo point finishing attacks. None of it was dependent on anone else, no flashy "Click Me, Click Me!!" type indicater (disclaimer, I realize literally everything in WoW is a flashy do whatever indicater, but it didn't use to be). Also they did things with combos for building up to do a stun of whatever else, but more importantly in my opinion, there were NO (Mash this, then this, then that) annoyances that were in EQ2. I guess, at least in the case of EQ2, that type of combo system is riddled with guides to play the way someone else wants you to. I want to play my way, no training wheels.
Agree. If combos are in, then...okay. Hope they are not.
@ Riply and Kelenin
Yea I like those ideas too, just anything to make combat interesting and involved. More thoughtful and tactical and not just autopilot.
That being said I do want to make clear that some classes should be that way. One thing I liked about XI was that different classes had different levels of difficulty/involvement. Some classes you could rock it and be poor. Others were badass but expensive to maintain. Some were more autopilot and easy to master, and others were highly technical and difficult to master. So for folks that want an easier class to play I think thats fine. But for me I like involved classes. Thats not me saying I want an action mmo, but when I was playing Ninja tank in XI it was 100% at 100% of the time, with timing and attention being critical.
So I guess the way I look at it as long as its not to the point where there is never any time to chat, then I want layers of complexity in everything from gear and progression to combat and exploration. That may or may not include interclass combos, but as long as I have that depth of play then thats good enough.
I really like the idea of a more passive system that doesn't have some UI element pop up like EQ2. Certain spells should work in conjunction with others, and it should be the player's job to both recognize and coordinate with others. Like not casting slow on a high MR mob until the tash has landed. That's a simple example, but I hope for many more.
Dullahan said:I really like the idea of a more passive system that doesn't have some UI element pop up like EQ2. Certain spells should work in conjunction with others, and it should be the player's job to both recognize and coordinate with others. Like not casting slow on a high MR mob until the tash has landed. That's a simple example, but I hope for many more.
As a UI/information minimalist, I strongly agree. Though for me its less an immersion thing and more a clutter and "let me figure it out" thing.
The combat system I really liked was in DAoC. It had skill chaining on a personal level instead of group wide chains. This was such a fun thing. As a Nightblade I would crit strike from the front (GASP! from the front and not behind?!?!?) which would allow me to do a second chained skill that would stun, and then a third that would do damage and cause a bleed. I would then slide around to the side of the target and use a flanking piercing skill for moderate damage with a followup that would refresh the bleed. I would then slide around behind and use a spam-ish combat chain from the duel wield skill line that did nice high damage and had an attack speed buff. If the fight was long enough I would slide to the side every so often to refresh the bleed. Combat was so fun! I was always moving around chaining skills. Everyone else was doing the same, but independantly. It looked and felt like a real battle. In pvp this was even more fun because you and your target were constantly jockying for position to get off that skill chain. It was a blast. Even solo fighting, if you had skill, you could land a stun and slide behind or to the side of the mob to begin a chain before the mob would come out of the stun and turn.
I would LOVE to see a skill system like this in game.
One of common pitfalls is that combos without UI are unclear and rely on reading the mind of the developer... while combos with UI elements start depending on the UI to the point where players start playing the UI instead of playing the game.
If you can't do them well, don't do them at all, and add them in an expansion when you can do them properly.
If you put combos in from the start, then make a good balance - it should be reasonably clear what to do, and yet it should not devolve to watching the UI icons and clicking them when they pop up.
Also, combos should be generic, based on categories of spells/skills, not triggered only on specific spells - for example, if you make that stun after freeze has a chance to do extra damage (shatter), then any stun-based skill after any ice-based skill should work. Not just one specific skill after another specific skill.
The current state of the target should be visible on the target, not in the UI, or at least not only in the UI.
I sincerely hope they do not implement a combo system. Having abilities that might trigger on a running mob, stunned mob, low-health, etc. would be as far as I would tolerate this system.
There are plenty of ways for you to theorize what type of combo systems would and would not work but I sincerely hope there is no iteration of 'cast spell X within 2 seconds of spell Y'. This creates a 'twitch' gaming style that the devlopers have said they want to avoid and like previous players mentioned, it pidgeon holes you into specific styles of play. Please for the love of god do not do anything like this. To me, it also seems a bit lazy and stifles creativity. If you want gameplay to be as emergent as possible then please skip this.