Something i've been thinking about for a bit.
And thanks to Kilsin with his latest post about the night time survival it reminded me ah!
Wouldn't it be amazing if there would be a good reality feel to the game and yet staying a game? Here's some examples I was thinking about.
1. Shop keepers closes shop at a certain time of the day. I never liked that a shopkeeper just stood in one spot for the existance of the game. They need to sleep ya know!
2. Give ways to barter with shop keeper instead of having a set price. But make it interesting if you uses a skill like barter but your charisma is low ok you might get him to buy your stuff at a higher price. If you do it too often with the same shop the npc's might decide to throw a issy fit and not talk to you for a bit.
3. Night time in the wild should be just like that the wild and if you light up a fire. It would be at your own risk. Better have a strong party cuz anything could happen, i'd really like to see cool encounters at night time. Thanks for that idea Kilsin hehe
4. Aging? Wouldn't be cool that you could actually age your character and create a heritage? Make it an option or just on specific server. But the whole aspect would be base on you create a character you give him or her an identity. You spend time adventuring creating your story and lore. And at one point instead of retiring a character to start a new character. You start the next character being your kids or your grand kids. Talking about that I'd guess you would have to create the possibility of coupling with an npc hehe.
5. Time and seasons not sure how the weather patterns are established but wouldn't it be cool that some area would see spring. Summer. Autumn and winter?
Anyhoo just some general ideas I'd love to see. What would you like to see to bring more reality in the game.
You have some good ideas Beez, here is something you may also like to read from another thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1796/the-inner-consistency-of-reality :)
Having played multiplayer games with day/night cycles for NPC's whereby you can't purchase consumables for combat because they're sleeping and you can't wake them? Not fun.
I'm all for having two different NPC's having one there to sell at night, and one to sell during the day, sure, but I think it's more efficient just to have NPC's that never sleep. I don't care if they never sleep. I just care if I can buy what I need to get back to my fun activities. Now, if you want them to charge 5% MORE because I just woke them up? Sure. But don't prevent me from getting back to core gameplay.
Kilsin said:You have some good ideas Beez, here is something you may also like to read from another thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1796/the-inner-consistency-of-reality :)
Thanks for the wonderful read. Tolkien was one of the best!
Thanks for the comment☺
And to add to some of the other posters for the vendor at night. Maybe not have the same one or maybe have less. For example taverns will be establishment that would be open and in a way would force players arriving in the city or town or homestead to go to the tavern to do their business this would help with the establishments reason to exist ☺
vjek said:Having played multiplayer games with day/night cycles for NPC's whereby you can't purchase consumables for combat because they're sleeping and you can't wake them? Not fun.
I'm all for having two different NPC's having one there to sell at night, and one to sell during the day, sure, but I think it's more efficient just to have NPC's that never sleep. I don't care if they never sleep. I just care if I can buy what I need to get back to my fun activities. Now, if you want them to charge 5% MORE because I just woke them up? Sure. But don't prevent me from getting back to core gameplay.
True a 9-5 merchant would be annoying, but say a 6am-3pm merchant and a secondary 3pm-12am and close 12am - 6am.
Typical gameday is what 72 mins in EQ1, thats 3 min per game hours so he would be close 18 mins and open 54, and thats not to say you couldn't have a blackmarket vendor somewhere that is open later hours, but at a higher price.
it would add some immersion int he sense that a town shuts down and goes to bed at night, things get quiet.
And out in the wild, things should be more dangerous at night. Throughout history, mankind was afraid of the dark and it's inhabitants. Less bears, snakes, orcs, humanoids, and more felines, undead, and other nighttime creatures.
Retsof said:Some games feel like it's always night-time. For me, that game is EQ2. I enjoy cycles, but I hope this game has at least a 2-1 ratio. If daytime is 30 minutes long, I hope night is at most 15 minutes.
I think that would depend on if day and night offer different opportunities or not. If there were things that could only be done at a certain time of day, then I think they should be equal in length. If it is purely cosmetic, then there it no point in making night as long as day. Personally I want different things to be active, alive or even doable at different times. Different mobs, different abilities, etc. I think that would be fun.
Fulton said:
True a 9-5 merchant would be annoying, but say a 6am-3pm merchant and a secondary 3pm-12am and close 12am - 6am.
Typical gameday is what 72 mins in EQ1, thats 3 min per game hours so he would be close 18 mins and open 54, and thats not to say you couldn't have a blackmarket vendor somewhere that is open later hours, but at a higher price.
it would add some immersion int he sense that a town shuts down and goes to bed at night, things get quiet.
And out in the wild, things should be more dangerous at night. Throughout history, mankind was afraid of the dark and it's inhabitants. Less bears, snakes, orcs, humanoids, and more felines, undead, and other nighttime creatures.
Shutting all the merchants down at night would be bad.
Shutting all the merchants down at night but giving you an option to sell to a shady figure in the corner for less money would be awesome.
It gives the player choice. Do i sell to this guy for less money but then I can go about my business or wait for the regular merchants and get a better price. Choice or even the perception of choice is very important.
* Shop keeper reality: Profit should drive the merchant's actions, if they see that I have some items they think they could make a tidy profit on that should trigger a reaction and in some cases override faction based discrimination. A merchant says, "Don't you skar scum have your own merchants?! ... wait is that a blue diamond? ..." Also, I need to be able to buy what other adventurers sell to a merchant.
* Night time reality: Different noises, different mobs, support classes with night vision buffs. Eyeshine, seeing 2 eyes staring back at you from the darkness is scary. A few maybes - spells that only function at night, cave entrances only visible/accesible by moonlight, and different fishing results at night.
Are there two suns? Two moons? Or just one of each? Would that matter?
Village (social) and animal activity should reflect the time of day (i.e. Skyrim).
Rainstorms that actually roll in and roll out. Real fog mechanics. Sandstorms and blizzards. Hot baking sun. Morning dew. Flocks of birds across the sky.
EDIT: Also, I always thought the diurnal changes in games came much too rapidly. I think it'd be okay to extend the time of dusk and dawn a little more than what is typical.
Interesting and compelling discussion/topics
Some of this stuff is dear to my heart.
In what world with no electricity would there be a shopkeeper working til midnight? /grin
This thread brings up MUCH that I've addressed and wanted to address.
Endless levels. Gear with no physical laws to be ruled by.
I spoke of a "real" fantasy world.
The one reply that sticks in my mind is someone who doesn't want a realistic world. They want endless levels (although probably over much time I'll give them credit for) and ever-evolving gear.
They see this as a reward for their efforts.
I see it as dilluting everyone else's efforts.
Just read a thread about Epics.
Great ideas. Some want them to finally be useless. Not right away, but eventually. To make room for more uber stuff that never stops coming into the game.
I'm "old fashioned" in much of my thinking, both in this game and concerning most of real life. And I may truly be alone in my thoughts about MMOs. I'm prepared for that possibility. I'm also prepared to play a game I could see being better if it were different. After all, you can't make money on a game if I'm the only guy that likes it! lol I get that... :)
But... if we built games or say... movies with the perspective and play style of many gamers... imagine Tashar... a level 89 Paladin or SK coming out onto the field of battle at Minas Tirith... running into the fray with his sword drawn... swinging it widely from left to right... enemies flying hundreds of feet... or... several enemies falling with each pass of his 2 hander... NOBODY ever hitting him. The rest of the field is manned by level 20 warriors and rangers. His weapon and gear has rendered him a GOD by all reckoning...
LOL!!!
This is EXACTLY what Everquest has become.
I understand there must be reward for investment. People play to progress. To attain. To advance.
I don't know how to fix my dilemma. I don't. I admit that. I mean I do, but.. the game would be very slow paced for most. And building the game might become an insurmountable quest for the devs and programmers. I don't know.
I just know I see this never ending quest for the next greatest piece of gear as being much like a gerbil on a wheel in a cage. He NEVER WINS. He NEVER gets to the end.
Where is the accomplishment in this game style?
I'll go back to the Epic. Why call something EPIC if it's going to be eclipsed in the VERY NEXT expac? Why do this? Is there no other way to advance a toon or evolve a game?
I'm asking while I'm criticizing. I've been saying this was a lack of imagination for many years in regards to Everquest. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is no other way?
In this believable world Tolkien asks for, a lvl 10 Paladin in Everquest would be... like 3 years old. Maybe 2. This is a problem for more reasons that we can list. And then... you'd STILL have to stop upping the level cap by 100 or 110 or so. Or else in a year or 2 the 2 year old becomes a 6 month old and the lvl 35 SK is now 2 years old. And on and on and on.... Toons are effectively GODS now. No... they SOLO GODS. They have evolved to an UNBELIEVABLE state. Now we're playing a comic book. Super man maybe. I LOVE the Superman story and movies, but there's NOTHING about Superman that is immersive. Nothing. How can you find immersion with that environment?
Am I the only one that feels this way? If so, so be it. I'm a big boy. I can love Pantheon even so. I'm still playing the game I'm describing in some of the comments above. I won't die and I won't reject Pantheon because it doesn't suit MY demands. Although I suspect many here would if MY concerns were taken seriously by the devs... lol
But, man! Do I wish there was an alternative. A high fantasy world with laws of physics lol
I'm rehashing old stuff I suppose. Stuff I've talked about before. But reading the posts here it just brings these things back to mind.
At times... it sounds like some of you just want EQ all over again but with better graphics and a somewhat slowed down timeline.
What if we FIXED the problems instead of just holding them off?
Is that possible? I don't know. I'm not a game designer. I concede that there may not be a fix for these conundrums.
Perhaps I hoping for the impossible.... /sigh
I'm not attacking those who disagree with me. I'm just hoping for a different "reality." For a better "reality." :)
And hoping we don't see Everquest all over again.
And PLEASE don't think that I'm wanting to take away from other players' investment. Not at all! I know others play way more than I do and I agree their time and efforts should be rewarded. Absolutely!
And sorry for beating a dead horse lol
I want world mechanics, day and night, seasons, weather that means something to the game. As pantheon has already said, spells will be enhanced by areas and weather conditions, so lightning in a storm being more potent than lightning on a calm sunny day. Lush!
I understand Qendiil's concern about everyone ending up like a god on an ant nest. I would rather expansions were concentrated on environments, world effects, story lines, expanding character immersion, and new environment exploration opportunities, making the world feel more real. Just increasing the max level on each release and, making spells ever more potent and providing people with god like equipment just ends up with characters that are near invincible in a world that feels disjointed.
I find it much more fun, moving through a new land and feeling vulnerable rather than being able to run through a zone and kill everything in sight without worry. Its ends up being a gold farming exercise.
So give me weather that hampers me. Give me dangerous day and night cycles. Give me new lands to explore but keep existing lands having that uneasy feeling when travelling though. Give me a land where fighting means more than gold accumulation. Give me a place where it is hard to survive and never gets easy. Keep gods and player just that.
Give me a world that feels real in a fantastic way. A world that is always dangerous. A living breathing place where everyzone has purpose and consequence. Allow a players skills to decide how well they progress in the world, not solely their equipment.
In response to the OP
1. I really don't like the idea of shops being closed.
I agree that it adds a degree of realism, but lets face it, once you are actually playing you are hitting the merchant as a drive by to do something else in most cases. I see myself having my bags full, in a group and finding a minute to run to the merchanct during down time....just to find it closed, and then either having to destroy items or having my group ticked off because I have to wait around, even if it is only on a 15 minute cycle.
But I do think there are other things that can be done in the way of ambiance, different "night time, sleep/irretable" NPC interactions. With that being said, its really not hard in the world of Unity to switch out to another NPC at night. I think its more of an issue when it comes to additional time to basically duplicate all world NPCs around the world for day/night changes for not an awful lot of bang for the buck.
2. I really like having several different was to barter or influence price of goods sold or bought, how that is worked out could be interesting.
I think the easiest way in my oppinion to have a direct effect on price of goods, would be faction. Maybe im just EQ1 at heart, but I would love faction to be a system that influences everything. In the case of merchants in general (I'm making that distinction because I think faction in general could be a topic of its own), faction should not be manditory or even a big enough factor that every player feels they MUST work faction (face it, some just hate working with faction in this type scenario). But, I think if a player wants to take the time to work it, they will see a minor to fairly decent influence to what the can buy and sell goods at.
3. I would definitely like to see some nighttime related changes.
The woods should be full of more preditors and you should have a larger "aggro range" to said preditors during the night when they are actively hunting.
Beyond the typical night/day changes to typical creatures in an area. I would absolutely love to see some type of throwback to Kithicor Forest from EQ1. Kithicor was a zone positioned relatively between two starting cities and three lower level leveling areas, so it was traveled continuously. During the day the forest was full to typical woodland creatures around level 10ish, but at night based on the lore of the game the zone turned into area full of undead creatures that ranged from 20-40+. Sucked the first time you got nailed the first time you ran through at night, not knowing what it was all about, but after that it always added a layer of danger which was pretty cool.
4. Not sure how I feel about aging.
I played EQ for a good eight years and really would not like to have my characters wither away or be forced to start a new character. I plan to play my Pantheon characters for years and years.
5. Seasons would be very cool.
Of course you would have to build all of your living Assets with that in mind, but there are already some pretty solid Unity tools for accomplishing this and those are off the Asset store so I have to imagine the dev team could do all that much better.
I really don't see the problem with shops being open 24 hours a day. Back in real midieval times, they closed at night because everyone else went to bed at night. There was no business to be obtained at night. But in a world of high fantasy, adventurers have to come through at all times of day and night and therefore shops wouldn't want to lose a chance for money because they felt they had to get some sleep. Plus anyone else the adventurers had to deal with at night would also be potential customers. They'd hire an apprentice or someone else to work the shop.
kelenin said:I really don't see the problem with shops being open 24 hours a day. Back in real midieval times, they closed at night because everyone else went to bed at night. There was no business to be obtained at night. But in a world of high fantasy, adventurers have to come through at all times of day and night and therefore shops wouldn't want to lose a chance for money because they felt they had to get some sleep. Plus anyone else the adventurers had to deal with at night would also be potential customers. They'd hire an apprentice or someone else to work the shop.
They wouldn't? Really? Been through a small town lately? ;)
I will play the game no matter how it looks on release. I do see a lot of people who want 7-Eleven convenience. I'll play the game either way :)
(IMO) Reality aids immersion, as long as it doesn't (i) costs disproportionate DEV time (ii) adds little but chores.
1. Shops close at night except Inn/Bar/Brothels. Sell junk there for less. Buy room/beer/entertainment.
Cities will always have *somewhere* open at night, even if it is shady or in the 'foreign' area.
TRY to get out of the rush-rush mentality... 'Fight-Sell-Fight-Sell'.
2. Bartering might be interesting! Faction + skill vs Merchant's appraisal.
3. Nighttime is massievly underused - make it spooky/dangerous/DARK!
4. Like Ripley, I worry slightly about aging my character. I can see how this might roll into the progeny system, though.
Would everyone start playing elves? Does this penalize humans? hmmmm...
5. Seasons are a must! They should affect nearly everything:
weather, movement rates, resists, food/water,
available resource nodes (less crops in winter), some herbs *only* in winter etc
Animal/mob patterns : Winter is when Kobolds stay at home, unless starving etc
Re: LEVEL CONCERNS (@ Qendiil et al)
This is one of those 'critical' areas. The development team are (I am sure) looking at where the game will be in 5+ years. How will they manage future expansions as the population creeps ever closer to the 'end-game' level?
Some of this is to do with pace of levelling.
Much is about levels of challenge.
Even more is about changing attitudes of the mainstream player away from 'rush to the end'
They will need to pick a level band for types of beings in the universe:
Gods (400-500), Demi-Gods (250-350), Powerful 'non-mortals' (100-200) and 'players' (50-75).
Now you have a framework. For players you therefore need to have an inverse exponential law for power. Consider a skill (Sword, say) for a Warrior. As his level increases, so does his sword skill. But the ammount he gets from each purchae of sword skill slows down as he gets more and more skilled.
Sword skill (10) - effective power = 50
Sword skill (20) - effective power = 50 + 40 = 90
Sword skill (30) - effective power = 90 + 30 = 120
Sword skill (40) - effective power = 120 + 20 = 140
Sword skill (50) - effective power = 140 + 10 = 150
Sword skill (60) - effective power = 150 + 5 etc
Thus each progressive level adds only a smaller ammount (until a certain minimum add). This would mean that you would never be so overpowered that you could casually ignore any player even 10 levels below you (though other skills/abilities/gear might make it all but certain in outcome) based solely on your skill at sword.
This, again, ties in to challenge!
I can see the concern with shops closing at night. It would be somewhat frustrating to have limited play time and find that the avenues available to you in the time you do have on a given night are limited. However I agree that the feeling of a living breathing world requires that there be adjustments for current conditions. This would include day/night cycles, weather, or even political climate changes. The local herbalist vendor isnt going to have an abundance of spring flowers for potions or poisons during extended snowy seasons. Or at least not at the same spring-time prices.
For the issue of shops closing, I'd look at it like any other modern market. Sure, during the day with the vast majority of shoppers out spending their coin there are dozens of shops with most everything under the sun available, and options of sources as well. But at night when there are only a few stragglers out the choices are far more limited. If you want to buy a supply of leathers for your tradecraft you might have to deal with the equivalent of the 24x7 Walmart, with lower prices and comparably lower quality. You can't go get a choice steak dinner at 2am. You get Denny's instead.