Throughout our own history we have witnessed the often devestating biological effects of mixing previously isolated human populations. For example, during the Columbian Exchange, the "Old World" and the "New World" both suffered each others' diseases as the hemispheres collided where native North Americans fatally dealt with bubonic plague, chicken pox, leprosy, and yellow feaver while Euroasia became infected with syphilis, bejel, and Chagas. Now, imagine what would happen if we threw 9 independently evolved species all in one planet!
Welcome to Terminus: Rise of the Diseases!
Terminus is a melting pot of diseases and every virologists' wet dream. The inevitable disease exchange between the races has some really fun in-game consequences and I'd like to share a couple ideas with you all. Some of you might have experienced my other grandiose theorycrafting posts - bare with me please, this one is a doozie :D.
New Spell Type - Zoonotic Disease
In the case of Terminus, we are dealing with independent species bringing their own viruses to Terminus and unleashing them on the world, leaving them to adapt at their own will. Eventually one viral mutation will lead a virus to adapt to the biological context of a new specie through a process called Cross-species transmission (CST). In our experiences on Earth, zoonotic diseases are particularly devistating (HIV-AIDS, SARS, Ebola, Swine flu, rabies, and Bird flu).
I propose there be a new spell type - Zoonotic Disease. If every race could infect each other race with just 1 zoonotic disease, we would have a total of 81 new diseases, 9 for each race. These spells would be passively cast through a new mechanism - contageous (see below). The cool thing about these diseases would be their dynamic impact. Just like in real life, an untreated disease of this nature ramps its intensity gradually, eventually leading the host to deaths door. In Pantheon, if a character becomes infected with a zoonotic disease it would be a slowly ramping debuff that could not be simply cured with a standard 'cure disease' spell.
New Spell Lines - Immunization
Players need a way to some how deal with these specialized diseases which invites the opportunity to create a new utility spell. I propose that Clerics, or a new class (see below), gain access to zoonotic disease-specific immunization spell lines. If a group composed of Humans, Elves, and Dwarves are going to travel to battle some Ogres, it is very likely they will catch a zoonotic disease. Prior to their exit, they would be wise to seek out a local Cleric and pay them to cast a long duration immunization spell specifically to avoid becoming infected with whatever disgusting Ogre diseases are growing inbetween their toes. These spells would last weeks so the frequency of immunization wouldn't become a time burden for players. If the group didn't have a Cleric which was able to cast this immunity, thats fine. Recall that these diseases are slow acting. After initial infection, the debuffs would be very minor and hardly noticeable. However, If you haven't gotten treatment after 2 weeks of your Ogre encounter, you'd probably have to address your illness before continuing your journeys or suffer the consequences.
New Mechanism - Contageous
I propose that, for the zoonotic diseases, a new mechanism of infection be introduced. The zoonotic diseases would be passively cast spells from one host to another via proximity and exposure time - possibly taking advantage of the 'atmosphere' mechanic. The susceptibility of diseases would be determined by the combination of a character's innate racial resistance, equipment, and immunization status. This could lead to some really interesting disease dynamics where whole cities could be infected leading to the emergence of epidemics and pandemics. This process includes both player-player and player-NPC infection.
New Passive Ability - Adaptive Immunity
Each race would have already adapted resistances to their own diseases. Similarly, given enough time of being infected with a zoonotic disease, a character has the ability to gain adaptive immunity towards that disease, no longer requiring the continual services of a Cleric. For the particularly sturdy races (Ogres and Skar) this process would be accelerated and they would be able to acquire all adaptive immunities without too much issue. However, for the more feeble races (Gnomes and Halfings) this process would take many encounters with the disease with the expectation of aquiring adaptive immunity much later on (lvl ~40). The prospect of gaining adaptive immunity would force the character to make a choice when they encounter a disease - "Should I just get temporarily immunized or should I work on my adaptive immunity and let myself get infected for a short while?". This could be a fun skill to max for completionists. Also, progeny characters would inherit their progenators adaptive immunity.
New Class - Plague Doctor
Group Role: Spell damage over time (DoT), Support.
Armor: Cloth, Leather, Plague Masks
Weaponry: Plague Doctors have been trained to use piercing and one-hand slashing tools developed to handle the unfortunate consequences of zoonic diseases. Primarily using medical daggers for blood letting and a textbook filled with medical information, the good doctor can also weild an off-hand hacksaw for the ocassional amputation.
Ability Arsenal: Plague Doctors are a class bred from necessity. Being trained as masters in zoonotic disease immunization, they can harness their medical techniques to great harm towards an enemy, including the intentional misuse of techniques such as blood letting, the use of leaches, and cauterization. They are the only class able to cast accelerated and modified versions of the diseases they have mastered, resulting in them having an arsenal of devestating DoTs and debuffs.
Iconic Ability: Mutagenisis - Through their intense studying, Plague Doctors have gained the ability to engineer highly unstable strains of viruses. As a result of being infected with a mutagenic virus, the host will suffer an onslaught of uncurable, randomized sequences of debuffs.
Weird, I was thinking about this last night actually, The War of the Worlds scenario that would inevitably happen by the fragment collisions on Terminus. My thought process stalled out because of the lore timeline, even the late arriving races have been on Terminus for 300 years, time for immunities to be build. But I do like how well you laid your idea out.
Gnomes may be feeble, but I get the impression they are encased in an environmental suit - wouldn't that protect them?
Regardless, +1 on creative thinking, though starting potential cross species pandemics that could exterminate entire races is a crazy way to spend a Friday evening Syntro! Your mind churns out fascinating what-ifs, keep them coming. Though I must admit when you said:
If you haven't gotten treatment after 2 weeks of your Ogre encounter
I assumed you were heading in another direction. Two weeks of an ogre encounter would be more than enough for most I would think, regardless of the risk of infection...
Thanks guys!
Kumu said:I assumed you were heading in another direction. Two weeks of an ogre encounter would be more than enough for most I would think, regardless of the risk of infection...
This evokes some yucky memories of the Rakghoul events on SWtoR. Regarded widely by the community as irritating and distracting, these events resulted in players contracting and spreading the Rakghoul plague, prompting players to flock to vendors in order to stock up on vaccines or risk de-buffs and eventual death.
The unintended consequences of the Rakghoul events were plagued players everywhere, players avoiding grouping with each other, the plague being spread where vaccines were sold, griefing and a load of complaints by the player base. I count myself among the many players who logged out for the duration of these events, which I think is something considering the events did come with content, rewards and achievements.
Your idea is certainly creative and detailed. I also appreciate how much time you took to flesh it out and to share it with us. But based on similar experiences, I don't want something like this in Pantheon. I think it will be a complexity that will deliver challenges of the tedious variety rather than, say, the types of complex challenges that come with surviving as a group - everyone must play their role well - in uncharted territory. It's a different quality of difficulty, though a difficulty still.
Kumu said:
I assumed you were heading in another direction.
umm, yes. My mind was heading towards ...well ... Lets leave it there perhaps?
@Alanna
I do think you have a fair point there. (apologies) But I did think there was merit within the piece, picking up on a small point he hinted at.
Syntro said:
Also, progeny characters would inherit their progenators adaptive immunity.
If mutagenic effects lay dormant, only attacking the hosts DNA, then this would be a more interesting concept. Progeny could, thus, have slight variations of racial characteristics. Some effects would be subtle, others less so. In rarer cases a more pronounced effect could be cross-contaminated. This may, perhaps, lead to such chimeras as 'humans with gills' or elves with tails. This, in and of itself, would be a positive incentive to the use of the progeny system.
1. Mutagenic effects would be dependent on the strength of exposure (read: level of mobs. Min, say, level 21 = 0.01% ... leve 50 = 9%)
2. These effects would only be 'contageous' within specific 'atmospheric' or 'magical element' conditions (read: within certain 'areas' of elemental/environmental types, each specific to the host-carrier combination. E.g. transmission of Myr contagion to human can only occur in 2 specific (lore-base, pre-defined) area types. Say, perhaps, underwater and in a 'grey' enviromental area. You would need to be near a strong enough carrier (eg Myr Raid-boss) and be of a certain set of racial types yourself. These combinations of 'carrier-race, player-race, environment and catalyst' would keep the frequency of contagion limited to a small sub-set for any given NPC encounter.
3. Player can rid themselves (or lessen) of these mutations (if they choose to) when 'progeny' is initiated. (perhaps Quest/PC-help/NPC-help)
Used this way, I feel it could carry the 'spirit' of Syntro's idea - offerring a potentially powerful reason for people to use any progeny system. These 'mutations' would have limited (if any) benefits - since they already exist for specific races already. The combinations could, of course, affect faction for the progeny character.
Human with whiskers = oddity!
Human with cat-ears = chased by Otaku!!
Thank you Syntro for an interesting idea.
I do hope some of this might be considered (perhaps in a watered down, 'lore-friendly', way) by Brad and the team.
(Note: some of these may be a pain from an 'avatar model' POV, but hopefully most would be subtle enough to not require more than LOD-zero visuals in the paper-doll, and even the more gross effects, eg tails, might be 'transferable' dependent on how the models are put together. Thats a question for the uber-modellers in the team! You know who you are!!)
AlannaTheFair said:This evokes some yucky memories of the Rakghoul events on SWtoR.
Honestly when that event launched I thought it was very cool, watching the news terminal report on the Rakghoul infestation and going to Tatooine and following the event quests. Then after the raid wiped because someone with the rakghoul disease exploded it wasn't very fun anymore. Plus there was nothing more frustrating after you cured yourself and queued for PvP and someone on your side was ready to explode.... they'd type " :)" and BOOM.
I enjoyed the surprise and the event but the spreading of the disease and the exploding was a bit overkill. In Pantheon I am open to having diseases implemented and I like the idea of an adaptive immunity, not only Clerics but Alchemists/Apothecaries could have the ability to create potions to help cure or prevent disease.
(please don't let diseases turn players into ticking time bombs)
Interesting idea. Like others, it reminds me of that plague in SWTOR. I agree that in a game like Pantheon, the whole exploding thing would be..a bit much, but I did enjoy the idea itself. Not real sure how I'd implement it myself, but there are many of you, as well as the devs that are far more creative than I :)
AlannaTheFair said:Your idea is certainly creative and detailed. I also appreciate how much time you took to flesh it out and to share it with us. But based on similar experiences, I don't want something like this in Pantheon.
Evoras said:Syntro said:Also, progeny characters would inherit their progenators adaptive immunity.
If mutagenic effects lay dormant, only attacking the hosts DNA, then this would be a more interesting concept. Progeny could, thus, have slight variations of racial characteristics. Some effects would be subtle, others less so. In rarer cases a more pronounced effect could be cross-contaminated. This may, perhaps, lead to such chimeras as 'humans with gills' or elves with tails. This, in and of itself, would be a positive incentive to the use of the progeny system.
1. Mutagenic effects would be dependent on the strength of exposure (read: level of mobs. Min, say, level 21 = 0.01% ... leve 50 = 9%)
2. These effects would only be 'contageous' within specific 'atmospheric' or 'magical element' conditions (read: within certain 'areas' of elemental/environmental types, each specific to the host-carrier combination. E.g. transmission of Myr contagion to human can only occur in 2 specific (lore-base, pre-defined) area types. Say, perhaps, underwater and in a 'grey' enviromental area. You would need to be near a strong enough carrier (eg Myr Raid-boss) and be of a certain set of racial types yourself. These combinations of 'carrier-race, player-race, environment and catalyst' would keep the frequency of contagion limited to a small sub-set for any given NPC encounter.
3. Player can rid themselves (or lessen) of these mutations (if they choose to) when 'progeny' is initiated. (perhaps Quest/PC-help/NPC-help)
Used this way, I feel it could carry the 'spirit' of Syntro's idea - offerring a potentially powerful reason for people to use any progeny system. These 'mutations' would have limited (if any) benefits - since they already exist for specific races already. The combinations could, of course, affect faction for the progeny character.
Human with whiskers = oddity!
Human with cat-ears = chased by Otaku!!
Thank you Syntro for an interesting idea.
I do hope some of this might be considered (perhaps in a watered down, 'lore-friendly', way) by Brad and the team.
(Note: some of these may be a pain from an 'avatar model' POV, but hopefully most would be subtle enough to not require more than LOD-zero visuals in the paper-doll, and even the more gross effects, eg tails, might be 'transferable' dependent on how the models are put together. Thats a question for the uber-modellers in the team! You know who you are!!)
If someone asked me what was a part of horizontal progression, and I did not know what "horizontal progression" was? I would say this thread?
was it.
This could range from magical to biological- take the opposite approach: an ogre fraternizes with elves too long- gets prettier (+5cha), but much weaker(-20str). smarter (+2Int- the wonders of "perception" open up!!) but clumsy (-10 dex)- and when cured- suffers a "flowers for algernon" kind of catharsis (-20wis, +10end)
was it worth it? .......mak sur u put flwrs on algernons grave (*bawls*)......
+10end for having gone through should be tempting and it might be the grey moral choice one would have to make (for an epic maybe?)
[this got me thinking more pantheon related cause and effects coming up- wanted to mention how I enjoyed getting the vampire "sickness" in oblivion- and the cure!]
Manouk said:[this got me thinking more pantheon related cause and effects coming up- wanted to mention how I enjoyed getting the vampire "sickness" in oblivion- and the cure!]
Syntro,
A much more in depth work of the diease system for pantheon. LOL I see you took my diease from the fish in the stream or dead animal to a new height. I Like it very intersting read! Thanks for watching the show and looking forward to seeing your ideas in our stream chat.
Hey Dal! Not sure I watched that one, which episode was it?
Disease spreading through corpse rot sounds pretty interesting too!
"Loot those corpses, yes even the rat wiskers guys. It's only humane to avoid diseases."
Next thing you know they'll impliment - "You have gotten better at Hand Washing (234)!" lol
Man I love this community!!! This is a great idea..
This could spin new skills to help cure or go to the dark side. Also the implications of a regional plague. Clerics/shamans would be in high demand for example.
The other side is climate. This would blow this wide open in my opinion.
Ox
Kumu said:Gnomes may be feeble, but I get the impression they are encased in an environmental suit - wouldn't that protect them?
Regardless, +1 on creative thinking, though starting potential cross species pandemics that could exterminate entire races is a crazy way to spend a Friday evening Syntro! Your mind churns out fascinating what-ifs, keep them coming. Though I must admit when you said:
If you haven't gotten treatment after 2 weeks of your Ogre encounter
I assumed you were heading in another direction. Two weeks of an ogre encounter would be more than enough for most I would think, regardless of the risk of infection...
Holy Toledo Ohio Batman... It would take six full months soaking in the perfumed hot baths just to wash the stink from your hide after a two week Ogre encounter.
A two week Ogre encounter might even be worse than being a skunk merchant.
Yarnila had a great idea that I think is worth recording on this post. What if the consumption of regional foods and drinks slowly built up your character's immunities to that particular region? The line of thinking follows real life allergens. If you continually eat honey produced locally, then your immune system will becomes aclimated to the local allergens. This would be a really neat way to add some *beef* to the baking and brewing tradeskills (pun intended) by giving them a meaningful connection to the environment.