I usually like any and all layer of complexity to combat that is different from feverishly cramming skills in global cooldowns.
Some tactical details like positioning your shield - yes, sounds pretty good. Jumping in order to do stuff, though, starts to get a little twitchy and hard to do with some lag.
Since Pantheon is all about tactics and timely use of spells/abilities to counter situations that arise within combat, you are mostly on point. As Raine points out, though, you have to beware falling into the 'twitch' trap. Thus all 'actions' and 'reactions' need to be based on 'observing the mob' and 'timing the action' rather than running about to avoid damage and spamming all my keys as CD comes off.
Eg #1: Spells affected by range:
Take a spall 'Minor Heal' (Heals 100 hp, range 40 feet)
at 20-40 feet does 75 hp
at 10-19 feet does 90 hp
at 01-09 feet does 100 hp
at 00 feet (touch) does 110 hp
Eg #2: Damage Spells affected by obstacles/orientation:
Take a spall 'Minor FireBolt' (RR = Resistance Roll. Sucess = less damage)
if target in leather armour: RR +10, crit chance -2%
if target in metal armour: RR +05, crit chance -5%
if target in NO armour: RR +0
if target has shield facing you: RR +10, crit chance =-2%
if target facing away from you: RR -10, Crit chance +3%
So, something as 'simple' as positional modifiers can change the way you think tactically in combat, but doesn't mean you need to be running about in a 'twitch' fashion. For example, Mezz may be less effective for mobs with a helmet, while the Cleric 'lull' type spell may ignore helmets since it works a different way etc.
I would like to see more than EQ in this regard, but not too much.
I'm defnitely in favour of need to position, be the right distance, face the right way. Some more tactical (but not twitchy) stuff would be great.
Re. movement or holding still or kneeling or whatever, I would like to add that I *strongly* feel this should effect all classes not just casters! There's no reason warriors/rogues/whatever shouldn't have to stand still, move slowly, not get pushed, etc etc to do certain skills just like casters. Yes, perhaps warriors will be much more resistent to being pushed and rogues could perhaps move more while fighting (it should perhaps be attribute and skill based as to how much you can be pushed or move during combat ot whatever). I dearly hope Pantheon won't strap casters to the floor...
Spent more than a few hours staring at the asses of mobs in EQ1/2 , so I'm familiar with positioning in that sense, and see the value in terms of situational awareness. Standing in front of conal attacks being a primary blunder for many. ;)
I've seen a few games where 'dance-dance-don't-stand-in-the-fire' or what some raid leaders call 'orchestrated group dancing' or 'cat herding to music' becomes the norm for the so-called 'end game' and honestly? Not so much a fan of that, myself. It's pretty much just reverse engineering the script of the designer who wrote it, through trial and error. Yes, there's the satisfaction of accomplishment of a complex group task, but when one false step dooms everyone, that's less fun.
I mean sure, that' certainly an option, and many games use it to great effect, and if that's how Pantheon does it, that's ok. But I think there are better options available, these days.
For common content, positional attacks and so on? That's good stuff. I've seen it where crit chance is increased greatly based on attacks landing on the 'back' of the target, but crits generate double or triple hate, so it's a balancing act between keep the creature facing a certain way for increased damage versus letting it spin and bad things happen. Positioning then tends to be quite important on fights over 30 seconds, because you end up with damage dealers spread out behind and to the sides, rather than just at 0 and 180 (or directly in front / directly behind).
Tail lash, though, that can be quite the nasty surprise, but if things like that are going to be in Pantheon, it would be kind to the melee characters to offer reasonable options for positioning, rather than combining things like small melee damage reach, tiny target hitbox, and 30 degree arcs of safety where dozens of collision-enabled players have to cram in and out of every 12 seconds. ;)
I'm not a fan of creatures being able to block 360 degrees. I mean, sure, if you're a spheroid, or a giant slime cube, sure, block away. But if you're a humanoid, with a shield, how are you blocking arrows coming at you from behind? It seems less likely this would be internally consistent. Same for things like parry, riposte, and other combat reactions or counters. Being able to riposte or parry with your back to an enemy seems less likely. Dodging? Maybe, if your hearing was really good or you had some other 'sense' that let you know that attack was coming.
Range affecting damage & healing is ok, provided you don't have the situation where the encounter requires healers to 'stand in the fire' so to speak, in order to heal effectively enough, unless there are counters or other unique mechanics that explicitly permit it (you pour water on the healers). Sometimes, when core mechanics are used that way by designers, it can come off as a bit of a gimmick, rather than being part of the story, scene, or encounter context.
One feature I would like to see is a distract line. This would be something as simple as "throw this rock while sneaking and the patroller walks over there briefly" up to the ability for a caster/illusionist to create, temporarily, a very large distracting event in combat, making ALL creatures turn and face that point. Something like a very loud noise combined with a very bright light (or variations on those themes) could be very distracting in combat. Capturing and releasing things like fireflies, butterflies, or other things for certain creatures to be temporarily distracted by, (food, drink, gems, precious metals, illusions of all those) in or out of combat, to me, sounds like a pretty interesting presentation of mez & lull, and something any class could use for the simple ones.
For me, I am happy to have (non-gimmicy) effects if they has a 'foundation' in reality (yes, yes, I know we are talking 'magic' here, but it still needs to be internally consistent or we have a failure of immersion). It would be nice to have some of them - but not so many that yuo are perpetually playing a min/max game!
Range Effect : I would actually rather this only affected damage-spells or thrown/missile weapons.
Greater range = harder to aim precisely = longer flight time = more time to avoid = harder to 'predict' or 'lead' your target.
This may increase mobs 'effect defence' and so increase chance of 'glancing' / 'near miss' or 'miss entirely'.
On the other hand ... if you are static, then next shot (missile/spell) should get *more* accurate (assumes mob doesnt move much). This is 'getting your eye in'.
Tail Lash / breath Weapons / Giant's Club: Affect wide area of mob's frontage.
1. These must be 'telegraphed' by the mob.
2. These (physical ones) should have Knock-back ... Distance = possibly_massive_value / your_weight_inc_gear
3. Most of these types of attack cause 'over-commiting' = short window for extra +%_crit_chance
MOB Size :
Anyone else not 'satisfied' with current methods MMO's use for 6' humans attacking 24' Giant? You would be lucky to attack more than its knee-caps.
Really need some thought about 'creative use of ladders in combat'...
...PLEASE tell me YOU have a better idea! (it cannot be worse than ladders!)
+1 for positioning involved in skills. As a side benefit, this makes boxing even more problematic.
Particularly like the idea of healing getting enhanced based on range. This could really expand strategy as players will constantly have to decide where is the safest position to heal from without losing too much heal potency.
I also want to see mobs attempting to strafe around targets or flank them so that we will have to adjust. It makes combat feel much more visceral and active.
Doesn’t this rely on the game engine limits and the combat mechanics? Mostly on the mechanics due to what style of game play the devs introduce. I have been watching the streams to see what they are using in for this. It is pretty rough or early in development to get a clear picture. Most of this we won’t know or get exposed to until Alpha and pre Alpha. It does beg the question on how the mechanics will work. Can tail swings be used by mobs? Will there be damage ratios that play into where you are standing or hitting. Ranged and casting damage based on this could be very complicated.
I do hope the combat get some love with respect to the mechanics and some moderate effects. I think Brad had stated that they don’t want a flash and fluff game so I think they are on the right track. If the combat mechanics are fluid and look good VR will have fend off the masses but that is a good problem.
Still chuckling over the giant and attacking its knees…
Ox
I like the positioning ideas for the most part, I also do not want to see fights become a version of Dance Dance Revolution. The kneel while rez that Tehtawd suggested sounds cool, and would look cool also, and could be as simple as making that an action that your character performs when casting the rez. I guess it does come down to how complicated the combat mechanics and game engine can get. I don't really want a marker on the floor telling me where to go stand, maybe it's because I am notoriously lazy.
I got my fill of all that dancing around colored lines and telegraphs in Wild Star. I think it died there for me. I ove the idea of positioning for extra damage or mitigation. But I really do not want to have to run around like a chicken with my head cut off avoiding colored lines.
I'm not against telegraphs that are in text though or that the model actually shows. If the dragon raises it's head and takes a breath, you better believe I'm going to get out of the way. But I don't want flashing disco lights on the floor telling me where to go.
Whatever the solution or implementation is here, I just hope that despite VR focusing on non-action combat with the goal being that it's not (what they consider) "twitchy", that the combat isn't slow feeling like FFXIV is. Slow feeling combat doesn't feel engaging, and standing in one place certainly doesn't help.
Sicario said:Whatever the solution or implementation is here, I just hope that despite VR focusing on non-action combat with the goal being that it's not (what they consider) "twitchy", that the combat isn't slow feeling like FFXIV is. Slow feeling combat doesn't feel engaging, and standing in one place certainly doesn't help.
FFXIV manages to feel both slow and twitchy/dancy. In other games I have preferred melee DPS (and tanks). But in FFXIV melee DPS is all about hitting the back, side, side, back, etc. in a specific order with specific skills, all while dancing out of frequent (and telegraphed with ground effects) line/cone/360°/donut AOEs. I just don't find it fun. I more enjoy the caster classes there, esp. summoner.
Sicario said:Whatever the solution or implementation is here, I just hope that despite VR focusing on non-action combat with the goal being that it's not (what they consider) "twitchy", that the combat isn't slow feeling like FFXIV is. Slow feeling combat doesn't feel engaging, and standing in one place certainly doesn't help.
Have to strongly disagree. FFXIV is the exact type of gameplay I dont want. Its too fast, and the running all over the place highly choreographed boss fights are ridiculous. I dont mind the "feeling" that combat is a bit faster though. Which can be done with increased speed of auto-attack, positioning, and an occaisional "dont stand in the fire". Oh and no global cooldowns, they are horrible. I want 1, 2, 5, and couple of 10 min CDs, and some abilities that only activate under certain conditions. I want as close to turn-based as can be without it actually being so.
Amsai said:Sicario said:Whatever the solution or implementation is here, I just hope that despite VR focusing on non-action combat with the goal being that it's not (what they consider) "twitchy", that the combat isn't slow feeling like FFXIV is. Slow feeling combat doesn't feel engaging, and standing in one place certainly doesn't help.
Have to strongly disagree. FFXIV is the exact type of gameplay I dont want. Its too fast, and the running all over the place highly choreographed boss fights are ridiculous. I dont mind the "feeling" that combat is a bit faster though. Which can be done with increased speed of auto-attack, positioning, and an occaisional "dont stand in the fire". Oh and no global cooldowns, they are horrible. I want 1, 2, 5, and couple of 10 min CDs, and some abilities that only activate under certain conditions. I want as close to turn-based as can be without it actually being so.
Heh, I don't like FFXIV, and that's because I feel that it's actually a bit slow. I'm not necessarily talking about the boss fight designs, but the combat itself. It both is slow and feels slow. I don't necessarily need the combat to be fast in the way that mobs are killed super fast, but the combat needs to be engaging and intensive enough that it feels fast and that I don't feel like all I'm doing is following a rotation or could macro it.
bigdogchris said:In EQ being behind the mob helped becuase you couldn't get reposted. Some abilities only worked from behind as well (backstab). I like it.
Good point - EQ had many positional perks like that - like the Ogres racial frontal stun immunity. Or not being able to block a mob behind you. I don't think the wheel needs to be reinvented, but possibly expanded. I would be all for passive positional bonuses or negatives similar to EQ, but I definitely don't want action based combat.
An example to expand on EQ: Large heavy shields with larger blocking angles than a small buckler? Make another layer to gear selection.
Raidan said:An example to expand on EQ: Large heavy shields with larger blocking angles than a small buckler? Make another layer to gear selection.
Better still, perhaps ....
Skill : Link (combat skill)
A combatant with this skill can 'link' with another player having this skill. To benefit, they must be positioned close together and be using a medium size shield or larger. This then reduces their movement speed while linked, but offers a benefit to their Defensive Bonus (DB) of +15 per person linked in this manner. Only one of the linked combatants may use an offensive stance at any given time. All others are only able to use neutral or defensive stances. Any combat attacks made by any linked person suffers a -15 penalty on offensive-bonus (OB). In addition only large and super-large creatures can 'break' through the shield-wall to attack combatants directly behind them.
Relatively simple type of 'skill', but makes choosing a shield useful in some circumstances, even for a rogue etc. The lower movement etc makes it possible to go *round* the shield wall, but with clever placement and orientation they can likely avoid that. But, they gain the advantage of extr defense for the squishies at the back (eg medding cleric or chanter) at teh expense of lowered chance to damage the enemy.
This kind of skill is not 'twitch' but perhaps may make the 'boring tank' job more varied, dependent on circumstance, and just as adrenaline filled.
Nanoushka said: It has to make sense, then I'm fine with it. If it's just to make combat more 'intricate' I despise it as it has the tendency to feel very artificial. Having to face an enemy when you're shooting an arrow at him or hitting him with a fireball makes sense and feels natural. Standing still and therefore hitting harder with your heal or damaging spell makes sense to me too, if I'm running around I'm less concentrated as I'll try not to trip or bump into someone else. The distance thing with a spell makes less sense to me as I feel it's about focus and intention, not range so much. If a finishing blow implies a certain action like jump, it'd be perfectly sensible to have to jump. If it doesn't imply it, I'd be left wondering why I need to jump and feel it's artificially tacked on.
As a healer, I have to say that the distance-to-healing concept doesn't make much sense to me as presented in terms of best healing output at 0 feet to target. I don't really see myself running around the fray to get as close to each injured party member every time I need to heal them. Seems like that could turn into another form of twitchy play style and much more movement that I'd care to do particularly in a raid setting where movement is already highly attributed.
However, I see an alternative that might make more sense if the idea of range-to-healing output is utilized in Pantheon. First, obviously there must be range limits to spell casting, that is understood in most all MMOs. Second, on the other end of the spectrum, getting to within 0-5 feet presents the healer with untoward risk, espcially if their entire healing arsenal is affected by this range parametric. In the case of a touch heal (this might constitute the only 'touch' spell a healer may have) then obviously it makes sense but not for every heal spell, debuff, buff, etc.
In terms of the mid-range there could be fluctuating ranges that offer the best possible healing output but these ranges should cover a fairly wide dynamic of ranges in most situation and for most of the healing spell line.
As Nanoushka has mentioned, focus and intention make much more sense to a healer in terms of their game play. If designers want to advance the healing gameplay, then they have to move away from the status quo of acquire target --> click heal spell button --> allow heal spell to fire off --> click other target --> click heal spell button ---> etc., etc,. etc.
Creating a healing system that takes focus and intention into consideration might utilise a focus/inention pool where varying amounts of focus and/or intention are put into each spell to increase or decrease the healing amount or bonus amount. Once the pool is spent it requires time to generate like mana. It could replenish faster or slower than mana depending on the design. Perhaps this is another area of gameplay that needs to be redesigned in games and progress it to something more than what the status quo has been since like forever?