In Dungeons and Dragons there were alignments. Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, ect... In modern MMOs we have Faction. Faction is superior IMHO, in that it allows players to shape their own characters. However, D&D did do some cool things with alignment. One of them was that equipment in D&D could have an alignment. Only characters that were similarly aligned could wield the weapon, shield, or whatever...
One thing I would really like to see in Pantheon is equipment that is aligned to a faction. Only players that had a faction level that was high enough could use the equipment. If their faction dropped, the equipment would un-equip itself. Who ever heard of an Ogre that wielded an Elven sword without basicly changing his entire life first?
This would not only be a very cool idea, IMO, but it would also set things up so that players would really have to think about factions they wanted to join. If factions are mutually exclusive (i.e. orcs vs elves), the devs can really gain control of itemization in the game. Balance in the economy would be easier to maintain.
Also, great items would tend to be linked to quests, not kills in this way. Killing an orc for his magical orcish sword would not help you, since you would be lowering your faction to do this. By questing for the orc... now you can get the item and raise faction.
This would add to the realism and immersion in the game as well as help the devs with many other issues.
One last note: I am not saying all powerful items have to be this way. Just some. Enough to make one think through their faction choices.
What do you all think?
I'd say that the easiest place to incorporate faction equipment is in the early game, when players are relying upon the areas around their beginning cities. It would stand to reason that Ogres would be making weapons for Ogres, crafted to exploit the nature of Ogres. They would not be thinking about the needs of Halfings or Gnomes. We could see the end of the generic rusty weapon, replacing it with a faction specific yet poor quality weapon. Merchants could also sell better quality versions.
Avenues of thought that occurred to me ....
Items Properties :
1. Faction
Probably only 'intelligent' or 'very magical' items would have to match your 'alignment' / faction(s).
2. Weight / Size / Shape
I find it very likely that, given the variations of player races, items that are usable by some will not be usable (without modification) for others.
Just killed the dragon and got yourself the 'One-piece bathing costume of SummerBreak'. bad luck... *you* have a tail!
Just killed the Boss and got the 'XXXXXL Truly Fat BreastPlate of Fatty Ogreness'.... ah... you know you are an Elf right?
Woohoo! just got the 'Super small ring of the powerful famous Elf Lady' ... ah! you have ogre fingers? oh oh....
Look it is a DragonSlayer Hammer made by the Ogres. If you weild its 400 Lbs weight it probably works wonderfully!
3. Materials
Given Terminus' many and varied 'elements', it seems very likely that there would be items crafted using various of these elements. They may 'emanate' somewhat ... anyone without a certain level of tolerance for this element would find themselves still able to wear/use it... just that they would getthe impact of the effects of whatever the emanations do to you. Perhaps reduce RR vs the element radiated. Perhaps reduces your mana regen etc.
Thus you might want to go out of your way to build up a tolerance to 'death magic emanations' just so you can use that Sceptre made of that whacky 'Death magic' material.
4. History
So you pick up your new loot.
It is a staff with a skull on the end.... An Elven skull.
... An Elven King's Skull.
... A very very famous Elven King's skull.
... A revered Elven King.
... An Elven Saint in fact. oops.
But it gives +20 INT, +10 WIS, +20 RR vs all Light magic and +5% chance for Spell Crits vs Elves.
However ..... it gives it user -15,000 HigElf_Faction, -12,500 WoodElf_Faction and -7,500 HalfElf_Faction while 'owned'.
You can use it .... but do you *want* to keep it?
One thing that comes to mind when thinking about a faction system is the system that was used in Velious. Dragons vs Dwarves vs Giants. In EQ1 the quests were very much attached to your faction. What if we also made the equipment be that way as well?
By attaching faction value to gear it could make choices in faction (even if they are reversable) more permanent and loyal due to not wanting to lose the benfit of an item. I think this is fine as long as there are appropriate gear options per faction. Notice i didnt say same, this item might be a little better and that one could be a little worse or might focus on highlighting different stats (more haste vs more crit?).
A problem I have with this (and maybe it has an easy or resonable solution) is haveing to guild shop per faction. Maybe your part of X faction but the guild leader is aligned with Y faction and wants to chase after content that would directly oppose your faction(s). So what do you do? Quit? Not participate in things and become basically a guild member only in name? Take faction hits non stop and even if you do get nice loot not be able to use it? Change faction and go with the flow (never mind that you really liked the other factions lore etc)? Thoughts?
A second problem I have with this is not being able to experience all the high end content on one character. Im not really an alt kind of guy. I like to have one character and I have no current plans of Progenying myself into oblivion. So that potentially screws me out of other high end content (which is more of a concern to me than the gear). I am less concerned about low level to mid level or standard content. I want those experiences and lore and story. But I wouldnt have a problem with experiencing the same content but with different flavors and alternate outcomes based on faction.
Example: Goblin High Priest Quest
Faction 1. Help him > story A > Faction 1 Reward and appropriate faction hits/increases
Faction 1. Betray Him > Story B > No reward and appropriate faction hits/increases
Faction 2. Help him > Story C > Faction 2 Reward and appropriate faction hits/increases
Faction 3. Kill him > Stoty D > Faction 2 Reward and appropriate faction hits/increases
I tried to simplify it. This allows you to participate in the content (and not be worried about other guild members factions) but under different contexts with different results and punishment for betraying your own faction.
1) you are a complex soul Amsai, but I understand your wanting to experience all content on a single main character
2) I am very glad I am not a goblin high priest, as should I meet you one day I wouldn't know whether to run, hide, or welcome you
I think faction based equipment could be done well, guilds have gravitated toward specific faction goals in the past and then those that wish recovered by grinding appropriate mobs (grab some lore seeking friends and let the repair slaughter begin).
JDNight said:One thing that comes to mind when thinking about a faction system is the system that was used in Velious. Dragons vs Dwarves vs Giants. In EQ1 the quests were very much attached to your faction. What if we also made the equipment be that way as well?
When I read your thread here, this was my immediate thought. Velious was the epitome of faction based gear. You didn't have to have a certain faction to "equip it," but you did to obtain it. And, since it was no drop, outside of the FV server (later on), for all intensive purposes, you really needed to have the faction to equip it as well or you would never have obtained it.
With all the discussions on lockouts, instances, etc. for raid spawns, I'd much prefer a robust faction system that would not allow a player to be able to obtain all raid gear. I'd rather there be multiple faction paths similar to Velious where the player chooses where they want to go but still be restricting based off that choice, rather than create artifically realities (instances) so all can obtain an item. Velious also had great quest lines as well such as the Coldain Prayer Shawl and the Coldain Insignia Ring quest that were great. Not "epic weapon" quests, but very epic all the same.
Some gear locked to faction, race or religion is a fun idea, but it is something that easily could be too much. If you use it sparsley (for instance for some mythical item and a few more basic things) it could add to the uniqueness of each race and faction.
Another thing that would be fun is crafting recepies that are locked to a race. Only a dwarf could make a dwarven chainmail even though anyone could wear one.
Holy/unholy weapons and trinkets locked to a specific religion (as well as cleric armors for that matter) would make religions more interesting as well.
Kumu said:1) you are a complex soul Amsai, but I understand your wanting to experience all content on a single main character
2) I am very glad I am not a goblin high priest, as should I meet you one day I wouldn't know whether to run, hide, or welcome you
I think faction based equipment could be done well, guilds have gravitated toward specific faction goals in the past and then those that wish recovered by grinding appropriate mobs (grab some lore seeking friends and let the repair slaughter begin).
1. Thats a very kind way to put it lol, Ive heard others use less nice words. But I wont deny it. I know some of my thoughts and opinions seem to counter my others, but its as you said I have a complex view of what I like and what I dont like. My best friend says Im the most picky gamer he has ever met.
2. Dont worry Im not only a Goblin, Im the Goblin President!
Sorry, but faction aligned equipment makes no sense to me. By all means, limit access to items through faction: Not friendly enough with the dwarves? You don't get that quest then!
But I can't suddenly equip my shield anymore because my faction dropped a bit? No good idea. I could see this being done in VERY rare cases ("The shield of dwarven friendship, which will protect its bearer as long as he's a friend to the dwarves"), but not as a standard way things should work.
And what about the Velious style of betrayal? Getting good faction with the dwarves, getting their quest gear, then turning around on them and killing them to get the quest gear of their giant enemies? This should be prevented otherwise. In a case like this, the knowledge that you betrayed your allies should become known to all involved factions and none of them should ever trust you again.
Yeah i have to agree with sarim here.
If this is at all something that can be done i would like to see it limited to "specialization Faction Based equipment" I don`t or wouldn`t mind the twist if you drop your faction you might not be able to equip that piece anymore though. I really want to see more than you need that faction just because that is part of the quest series. Give gaining or droping a faction or alignment real indepth meaning and let it relate to the deepest parts or lore!
This adds to a post i did on a related Thread Faction.
Make us think about the Factions and which ones we want to engage in. Make it so that regardless my alignment i can choose to do good, bad or stay neutral. Add Faction Alignment towards the Guild in general based on the general alignment the Guild members have the Guild it-self would shift its alignment making it interesting for the guild to work hard together to reach a certain alignment of choice or choosing.
Sorry for getting a little of topic here had to run the thought or i would just end of sinking it later ;)
I like the idea of faction based gear. If you wanna wield the weapon that Ogre guard has, go make friends with the Ogres and so on. Honestly, I'm a big fan of faction actually meaning something in general. I liked watching faction going up for one alignment while going down for it's opposing alignments in EQ or the fact that Iksar's hated pretty much everybody, even themselves hehe.
Raidan said:Velious was the epitome of faction based gear. You didn't have to have a certain faction to "equip it," but you did to obtain it. And, since it was no drop, outside of the FV server (later on), for all intensive purposes, you really needed to have the faction to equip it as well or you would never have obtained it.
With all the discussions on lockouts, instances, etc. for raid spawns, I'd much prefer a robust faction system that would not allow a player to be able to obtain all raid gear. I'd rather there be multiple faction paths similar to Velious where the player chooses where they want to go but still be restricting based off that choice, rather than create artifically realities (instances) so all can obtain an item. Velious also had great quest lines as well such as the Coldain Prayer Shawl and the Coldain Insignia Ring quest that were great. Not "epic weapon" quests, but very epic all the same.
This is the answer to many forum topics.
Refer to Velius to solve/reduce End-Game bottle-necking for content (without instances or everyone gets a turn mechanics). It also displays how faction was done in a near perfect manor. I dont recall anyone speaking ill of their time in the Velius Era.
Faction should be required to obtain certain gear, not to equip it. Certain gear could raise or lower faction a bit. Please dont put in a bunch of class/race/deity specific gear, that stuff just rots and isnt very valuble because of the narrow market for few lottery winners who are the appropriate class/race/deity combonation.
Faction based gear is a great idea. It can add depth to the questing systems and character development. How to deploy it is the kicker. I think the best example is to make players feel like they are part of a group/family right out of the chute. Let the player decide on what path to take. This could work with crafting too.
Good post
Ox
I can see faction aligned equipment being UGC or crafted, but I wouldn't expect developers time used for this. There's just so many variables. It's like deity based gear. Looks good on paper but is bad in practice when you consider the very limited amount of people who can use it (considering development cost).
I'm not sure why faction aligned gear would make no sense. There is plenty of precedent for it in all sorts of fantasy lore in books, movies, etc...
It makes every bit as much sense as "A druid only uses blunt weapons" or whatever. There is nothing inherent to a blade that would prevent a druid from using it, but druid's don't use it. The difference between "don't" and "can't" are symmantic when it comes to an MMO. If a druid doesn't use the sharp item, the game won't let them. If a faction doesn't use an item, the game won't let them.
For me, I like having all sorts of different things to think about when I gear that are lore related and not min-max related. I'd love getting an item that only my race could use or whatever - especially if I really had to work for it.
My two cents only.