Classes are typically designed around their particular class abilities and spells and to a lesser degree the appearance of their gear. When you play a Shaman it should give the player a sense that they are really playing a Shaman as opposed to a Wizard or a Druid. But is it simply the class abilities that do this or is there more?
What are some elements you can think of that make your characters feel profoundly unique and resonate with the uniqueness of that class?
Well for startes I totally agree with seperate skill/ability lines. It just gives more flavor. They shouldnt be crossing over unless something is actually a hybrid of 2 or more classes.
And even if they do the same thing having a different name and seperate animations are important too. Dont know what else beyond that beyond iconic looks.
One of my 'Wow!' moments in EQ was when a friend and I were trying to get through Highpass Hold together to get to the Commonlands. We were not fortunate enough to find a ground based escort so to speak to get us through the pass. Along comes this high level Druid who cast Levitation on us (and other buffs) and we virtually floated over the bits we could not get through. The experience was amazing and awe inspiring but it felt like there was more than just the casting of spells and viola! It was that particular moment I felt I got a deeper sense of what Druids were capable of. I felt protected and surely guided out of harms way via a softer (but exhilarating) technique.
It should be iconic abilities over anything else. I know others won't agree with me but I don't see the need to be able to immediately identify what class someone is just by appearance, it would be nice to be able to customize your appearance so that not all people of a certain class look the same.
Meaningful factions/Deities add a lot of depth for me - the difference between an evil race necromancer to a good race warrior to an agnostic human enchanter in EQ was huge. The necro was hated everywhere (even in their own cities), the warrior could go many places, and the enchanter could go nearly everywhere.
That level of depth added an element of realism and made my choices feel much more alive while adding large distinctions between the classes.
Spell different graphics for the casters is what i would love, i would love it if they all had unique spell graphics even when dealing with the same elements from different classes, eg. wizzie fire spell being a bit different to a mages fire spell.
Random memory popped into my head, a bt off topic...but my fire spell comment reminded me. Does anyone remember as a wiz / mag fireing fireballs off with no NPC target into the sky back in EQ1. You could just launch fireballs into the air and watch them plough across the sky all the way across the zone, i used to signal to my friends where i was by saying watch for the fireballs heading towards the sun... thats where i am! :p
My biggest thing is how some of the classes have unique systems. In VG the classes played extremely different from each other which was great. Just a small example would be the healers. The cleric healed as a melee class but with traditional healing. The disciple healed as a melee class but through damaging abilities. The blood mage healed similar to the disciple via damaging spells but from casting afar. And the shaman healed traditionally but from casting afar as well as having a good amount of utility.
But what I really enjoy are the unique systems that some classes get (and I hope Pantheon not only brings this back but gives each and every class something fun to play with). Examples of these unique systems would be the pet system the necro had. The necro had to collect parts to build their pet. The song book for the bard was a great unique system that no other class used. The virtue points the paladin used was cool and a few classes had something similar to this system.
I would love for Pantheon to have unique systems for ALL the classes, not just a few. Something for each class to tinker with during their travels which also sets them apart from each other aside from having different spell trees/books. Imo this would really create class depth.
I would love for Pantheon to have unique systems for ALL the classes, not just a few. Something for each class to tinker with during their travels which also sets them apart from each other aside from having different spell trees/books. Imo this would really create class depth.
Same here :)
The experience was amazing and awe inspiring but it felt like there was more than just the casting of spells and viola!
My first such experience was in Anarchy Online, we need more of such interdependencies among classes and that unique feel of being the special snowflake (in a good way that is) :)
Class Depth:
WHAT IS ISN'T:
It has nothing to do with 'look' visually of a character. There is no need for all Wizzies to use a staff... or long robes for that matter. Happy to see one using a wand instead. Class 'recognition' based purely on 'look' is absolutely not needed.
WHAT IT IS:
It seems to me that this is all about drilling down into what make each class unique (or at least distinct) from other classes. Enhancing what 'defines its role' by allowing options for the character that let the player choose a focus for the character that emphasises one of their 'areas of strength'.
This *might* be represented in a type of 'Class AA' or 'specialisation points'.
Eg : Wizzy Class role strengths :
(i) Teleportation of self and group
ADDED DEPTH : Wizzies who focus on this area, may be able to reduce their chance of TP going wrong (assuming TPs can do this). They may be able to 'detect' incoming teleports, just as they happen. Perhaps more specialised focus on this area would allow multi-group Teleports. If a 'weight limit' is in place for TP (an idea i like), focus on this area may reduce the power cost for extra weight, or reduce the cast-time that is needed for the wizzy to compensate for the extra weight.
(ii) only magic DPS with 'penetrating' attacks, ie Harder for mob to Resist
ADDED DEPTH: Wizzy's specialising here may be able to make other attacks 'more penetrating' vs mobs with higher resists. They may be able to use a special ability (a continual channelled spell attack on a mob, say) that lowers its Resists against a specific element while in use. This may be massively useful in Raids vs bosses with insanely high resists vs one element. Eg Efreeti or Fire Elemental (virtually) immune to fire damage ... using this *may* lower its Fire Resist enough that Aradune's FieryAvenger actually damages it.
(iii) only magic class that can use ALL elements in attacks (ie Fire, Ice, Lightiing etc)
ADDED DEPTH: Focus on an area here may determine if the Wizzy wants to specialise in *one* element to the detriment of the others... or perhaps he wants to go the other way and learn how to combine 2 elements to make a hybrid-element attack.
All these add 'depth' to the class, not by blurring its boundaries, but by sharpening the focus of the character on a particular area of that classes 'uniqueness'.
This is the kind of innovation/ideas I would like to see in enhancing classes. Not (as with 99% of modern MMOs) by making all of them overlap in roles, but by *narrowing* the choice of focus within the role.
A class is something that one becomes . A person is not born Enchanter , he becomes one through study and training . It is a choice .
EQ got that right because the very first action a new character did was to go visit his Guild Master . Some have to hide (remember the Qeynos catacombs ?) to avoid being discovered .
I could imagine that the very first scene in Pantheon could be you leaving your family to look for a training . Actually one can imagine that you don't choose your class at character creation but in game by visiting different Guilds and asking one for apprenticeship .
The classes have their own Guilds, buildings, secrets, lore and libraries .
To feel being part of a class it is necessary to demonstrate its specificity and differentiation .
And this is of course not only class specific spells - the spells are only the visible part of the iceberg . Every single MMO has that and it is clearly not enough .
Beyond that there must be class specific quests with class specific rewards .
There must be a class history and lore that the apprentice has to learn - f.ex through mini quests .
There can be titles that one must earn and distinctions like medals, honor awards and grades .
The Guild Master must remember you and give you hints and encouragement when you meet him . Btw I noticed that it always adds depth and immersion when NPC remember you - for instance in Lotro when you talk to an NPC it remembers not only you but also the tasks or help you accomplished for it .
Everything that reminds you that you are part of a family is good for immersion and for that elusive feeling that you belong .
I tend to differenciate classes by what they bring to a group - their skills set. Hopefully each classes should bring something very different for a group. What I always fear in games is archetype - like dps. Pretty much all dps classes bring the same things but in different ways. Mage do fire dmg, rogue do physical dmg, but in the end what they do is dmg. It reduce a bit the coolness of having specific gameplay mecanism to classes if in the end they bring th same thing.
Sadly I do not have ideas on what could differenciate class in a more drastic ways. Hopefully people in VR and on these forum have more creative skills than me!
Evoras said:Class Depth:
WHAT IS ISN'T:
It has nothing to do with 'look' visually of a character. There is no need for all Wizzies to use a staff... or long robes for that matter. Happy to see one using a wand instead. Class 'recognition' based purely on 'look' is absolutely not needed.
I disagree but my point was more along the lines of a look, not a uniform. Its by no means a deal breaker for me either way but also dont want to see people running around in whatever silly things they want. To me that would be just as bad as letting them wear crazy crap from a cash shop. And it could be given real purpose. So you wouldnt have Enchanter suits and Wizard suits. But something more along the lines of a regional style or a general look association. Like a summoner with a persian look. Or a shaman with a native american look, or Monk with the typical asian temple look. Then you tie it to the lore. So a Wizard could still wear robes or shirt and pants but it would have a certain style.
So lets see what we got:
1. Unique spell/skill lines
2. Faction relevence
3. Specialization
4. Unique Lore
5. Class Guild interaction
6. Class style (the look)
7. Differences in how they play (ranged, positioning, stances, order, etc)
8. Unique Roles (no jack of all trades please)
9. Diety affiliation
I feel that one thing have been left out so far: basic class mechanics. Exactly how you use your skills (a wizard might have magic points for instance).
Take GW2s theif for instance, when fighting that class don't have cooldowns but you have an initiative that replinish as you play, you can empty that pool almost instantly with tough attacks but then you will be vulnerable for a time. GW1s warrior got adrenaline needed for the warrior attacks, you needed to get a bit beaten before you could use the really nasty stuff there.
This is not a specialization but the thing that makes a class unique. If you just change the skills most classes will feel pretty similar and if they do that then there is no need for more then a few classes.
A bard for instance should play differently then other classes and not just by having a song in the background and a few effects showing notes as you attack. The class should feel like music really powers it, maybe you would gain inspiration for certain things that you could use to improve skills or unlock special skills. And that inspiration should go up when you use your music skills. So to use your powerful attack you might need to be inspired by using a chant followed by some kind of lesser musical attack until your inspiration is high enough.
And yeah, that is just how I would like it, not sure how it actually will be in the game.
Evoras said:Class Depth:
WHAT IS ISN'T:
It has nothing to do with 'look' visually of a character. There is no need for all Wizzies to use a staff... or long robes for that matter. Happy to see one using a wand instead. Class 'recognition' based purely on 'look' is absolutely not needed.
I don't quite agree, sorry :) Love playing druids and love the thought of armour that is frilly and flowery and nature oriented. Wouldn't mind a staff or club with vines and flowers :) I quite enjoy being totally immersed into my character/game, visually so too. :) Makes it visually cheery and more fun! =)
Fleur said:Evoras said:Class Depth:
WHAT IS ISN'T:
It has nothing to do with 'look' visually of a character. There is no need for all Wizzies to use a staff... or long robes for that matter. Happy to see one using a wand instead. Class 'recognition' based purely on 'look' is absolutely not needed.
I don't quite agree, sorry :) Love playing druids and love the thought of armour that is frilly and flowery and nature oriented. Wouldn't mind a staff or club with vines and flowers :) I quite enjoy being totally immersed into my character/game, visually so too. :) Makes it visually cheery and more fun! =)
I've always like the Priest classes myself and lately the Druid stands out for whatever reason. But I favor a more somber and darker approach to the Druid. Not evil, just not so optimistic. Somewhere around the chaotic neutral alignment with a slightly ominous edge.
I quess, in terms of depth, if I'm running around with a Warrior, I want the play to feel like I'm playing a warrior solidly. Through and through. That goes for any class really. Just running around the world with any class should evoke the sensation that I am playing that class and not another.