So I dont believe this has been brought up but it is something that should be discussed.
I would like to see most contested raid mobs only accessable after clearing raid trash mobs. If there is a huge castles in game the lowest levels should be guarded by mobs that require a full raid to proceed. That way it gives high level guilds another pause because of death. If they wipe they might have to clear the trash all over again.
One of my favorite contested mobs was EQ2 castle mistmoore. You had to clear a lot of mobs that were 4x and if you wiped chances are you would reclear a lot of the zone to get back to the final contested.
I agree. I also like the idea that a raid might have to defeat a lesser raid mob, just to see if the main raid target is up. If you put the main raid target on a variable spawn timer, a raid will have to clear all of the trash (without wiping), slay the lesser raid target, and only then will it be able to "see" if the main target is up (or will spawn). This should help to reduce raid target camping.
Make the lesser target spawn realtively quickly (but also variably) compared to the main target, and have it drop useable (if not Epic) loot so no one goes home with nothing. Solves so many problems.
I've talked about this quite a bit. Not only do I think its a good idea, I think its imperative for contested boss mobs.
By putting raid content in front of a boss area and preventing players from sneaking, training to, tracking or especially sitting safely near a spawn, you force guilds to actually commit time to forming a raid and finding out whether a boss is up. That is important because if players can't know definitively when a boss has spawned, it levels the playing field a bit giving less hardcore guilds a crack at high priority targets. Even if a guild may be waiting on a particular boss, they are forced to commit a raid while other guilds have an opportunity to check other places.
In such a scenario you can have mini bosses on a shorter timer to give players some incentive to check and consolation loot should the boss mob not be up.
I enjoyed Castle Mistmoore and I loved EQ2 contested zones. I think one of the things that made this area very fun was that in EQ2 at that time it was a little more difficult than what any crappy player could do. In the beginning at least, it required putting players together who knew how to play their classes to actually be successful. That is the spirit that I would like to recapture. As far as how that mechanically will work, there are still too many variables now for me to really understand the direction of raiding in Pantheon at the details level.
GOOD LAYOUT
If you look at early EQ1 design, you wil see that the Raid-Bosses were at the back of 'regular' zones. Think of Permafrost and Sol-B.
This pattern is also followed in Kedge Keep, Karnors Castle and, though no actual 'raid' boss, in Unrest too.
In each of these zones there was a metic butt-ton of yard-trash between your raid party and the Raid-Boss....
... though there was usually a 'staging point' just before the big fight area.
TIMING
Part of the issue with EQ1 Raid bosses was that the schedule became known/reported. It was a simple timer.
Better would be:
1. A minimum time to manifest (mebbe 6 days)
2. Criteria that need to be met before a 'delay' timer begins
3. A Delay timer that runs once the criteria are met (say 10-40 hours)
The criteria would be 'world impact' criteria. Say, for example, that 'Lady Vox' will appear (suitably angry) once 10,000 goblins have been murdered.
If they are killed in less that the 'Minimum Time', then wait for the Min_Time to arrive. NOW start the Delay_Timer
Once the Delay timer has run down (it is long eough to ensure nobody sits there waiting) Vox will spawn.
FOR FUN:
1. Follow above to find next re-spawn of Lady Vox
2. Once she spawns start a counter... every time either 2000 goblins die, OR 3 days pass
3. Increase level of spawning goblins by 10% and their numbers by 10%
4. Reset counter and repeat steps 2-4 (max of, say +50% levels/numbers in Vox's case)
5. MAYBE you can allow Vox to cool down after a while...
WHILE dead_goblins < 2000 per 3 days
Goblin_Respawn_Level = Goblin_Respawn_Level - 5%
Goblin_Respawn_GroupSize = Goblin_Respawn_GroupSize - 5%
UNTIL Goblin_Respawn_Level = Goblin_Respawn_Level_Original
Hopefully, this is a 'kind' of idea that would stop elite Guids from hogging all the Raid_Bosses for themselves....
... and introduce incentives (perhaps Raid Guilds could offer lowbies cash for every goblin killed ... just collect them goblin ears and make them into a 'not-serial-killer-like' bloody necklace of goblin ears) for global server participation.
Well, it was an idea....
I'm all for mechanics to stop the big guilds having such a massive advantage.
In EQ P99 (and original EQ) it was ridiculous how it seemed to become a Guild vs Guild activity *much* more than a PvE encounter. Just a race to skip to the boss as fast as possible was very boring to me.
Never gave a damn about 'beating' other players. I wanna fight dah huge dragonz!
Not knowing exactly where the boss will spawn maybe ? You have to clear the whole place and once the last mini boss is downed the main boss could spawn anywhere, making you still have to track it. This boss would be on a lockout timer for every person in the raid once it is downed, leaving it available for other guilds who need to have that same boss such as Rotblood in the marsh of VG, worldboss. Not sure on the name, its been a while, sorry. but you get the general idea :)
here are the links you were refering to http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2251/raids-what-and-why/view/page/1 http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2714/raid-size/view/post_id/39351
Just a few
I like the general direction of this thread. The only thing Id add is I am not a fan of the phrase "Trash Mobs". Mobs that gaurd/block the way to a Named should not just be an annoynace but something dangerous and to be feared. Lack of skill or planning should result in a wipe. Respect the "trash"!
With a few exceptions, most raid boss mobs should be hidden behind a few "waves" of trash mobs, not easy trash mobs, but trash mobs that need a more or less full raid to defeat.
The respawn timer should be balanced on the one hand to give the raid at least the possibility for a second try bevor they have to do the trahs again, but not to allow them to try them boss infinitely, before they ned to clean the trash agin.
To define how fast the respawn timer should be, we have to think of another point. If the trash mob drop interessting items, then a quick respawn timer could lead to trash farming. Do we encourage maybe not so strong guild to do this to improve their items, or do we want to prevent people from doing this?
Amsai said:I like the general direction of this thread. The only thing Id add is I am not a fan of the phrase "Trash Mobs". Mobs that gaurd/block the way to a Named should not just be an annoynace but something dangerous and to be feared. Lack of skill or planning should result in a wipe. Respect the "trash"!
This is how I feel as well, I hate the term trash mob because I literally see no point in fighting them other than blocking content. More care should be given to trash mobs to give them some meaning other than fodder lol
Grimix said:Amsai said:I like the general direction of this thread. The only thing Id add is I am not a fan of the phrase "Trash Mobs". Mobs that gaurd/block the way to a Named should not just be an annoynace but something dangerous and to be feared. Lack of skill or planning should result in a wipe. Respect the "trash"!
This is how I feel as well, I hate the term trash mob because I literally see no point in fighting them other than blocking content. More care should be given to trash mobs to give them some meaning other than fodder lol
Well in EQ, many raid level trash mobs had a chance of dropping rare spells or items. Still trash compared to loot from 'named' mobs, but not entirely worthless.
Trash mobs are really necessary for many reasons. They can serve as a trial leading up to the more important mobs. They can make an area more dangerous. They can create a more believeable environment creating the semblance of a working society among an enemy faction. They can hide the status of a raid target for reasons I explained above. They can be purely a time sink so mobs don't become free loot pinatas.
Dullahan said:Grimix said:Amsai said:I like the general direction of this thread. The only thing Id add is I am not a fan of the phrase "Trash Mobs". Mobs that gaurd/block the way to a Named should not just be an annoynace but something dangerous and to be feared. Lack of skill or planning should result in a wipe. Respect the "trash"!
This is how I feel as well, I hate the term trash mob because I literally see no point in fighting them other than blocking content. More care should be given to trash mobs to give them some meaning other than fodder lol
Well in EQ, many raid level trash mobs had a chance of dropping rare spells or items. Still trash compared to loot from 'named' mobs, but not entirely worthless.
Trash mobs are really necessary for many reasons. They can serve as a trial leading up to the more important mobs. They can make an area more dangerous. They can create a more believeable environment creating the semblance of a working society among an enemy faction. They can hide the status of a raid target for reasons I explained above. They can be purely a time sink so mobs don't become free loot pinatas.
That I like! I'm more use to ffxi but "trash" mobs were often not trash, they either dropped items you needed to pop the named monster, or they dropped gear or items. I can't really remember too many instances on trash mobs because in the only event I can relate to a raid, all the wood be trash mobs dropped coins you needed in order to unlock your relic weapon as well as some gear.
Dullahan said:Grimix said:Amsai said:I like the general direction of this thread. The only thing Id add is I am not a fan of the phrase "Trash Mobs". Mobs that gaurd/block the way to a Named should not just be an annoynace but something dangerous and to be feared. Lack of skill or planning should result in a wipe. Respect the "trash"!
This is how I feel as well, I hate the term trash mob because I literally see no point in fighting them other than blocking content. More care should be given to trash mobs to give them some meaning other than fodder lol
Well in EQ, many raid level trash mobs had a chance of dropping rare spells or items. Still trash compared to loot from 'named' mobs, but not entirely worthless.
Trash mobs are really necessary for many reasons. They can serve as a trial leading up to the more important mobs. They can make an area more dangerous. They can create a more believeable environment creating the semblance of a working society among an enemy faction. They can hide the status of a raid target for reasons I explained above. They can be purely a time sink so mobs don't become free loot pinatas.
Exactly trash mobs end up being Speed bumps that sometimes drop a nice spell. Trash mobs also serve as practice both for the raid leader and your raid force. A lazy raid leader will not give instructions or investigate. A lazy raid force will be pulling a trash mob and aggro 4 more. Trash mobs should still be hard in the aspect if your tank is worthless and pulls 2 instead of 1 you should wipe. Other then that it really should serve as a speed bump so you can Speed mod 30 names ina night of raiding
For clarity Im not agaisnt mobs blocking the way to the Named if I gave that impression...................... dont see how I did though.
I just dont like it where you go into a dungeon and you faceroll the keyboard and all trash dies. They should be tough and not something that annoys you or you laugh at. And its fine if they have a purpose. Thats great. But that doesnt mean I want wave after wave of laughably easy mobs. That isnt even a challenge. And thats what I mean by not liking "trash mobs". If they are challenging and serve a purpose then they by definition arent "trash mobs" right?
Amsai said:For clarity Im not agaisnt mobs blocking the way to the Named if I gave that impression...................... dont see how I did though.
I just dont like it where you go into a dungeon and you faceroll the keyboard and all trash dies. They should be tough and not something that annoys you or you laugh at. And its fine if they have a purpose. Thats great. But that doesnt mean I want wave after wave of laughably easy mobs. That isnt even a challenge. And thats what I mean by not liking "trash mobs". If they are challenging and serve a purpose then they by definition arent "trash mobs" right?
I would say its still trash mobs they are something to slow the raid and keep people honest knowing they can kill 1 mob easy but 2 or 3 and its goodnight raid. I remember in some raids the mobs were super close togehter and if you AOE at the wrong time you would draw another trash mob and itsa lights out. They shouldnt be overall hard justy a hindernce. They also make great practice for tryouts and new guilds
There are a couple things that come to mind about this. I don't like raid bosses being trackable honestly. Having a ranger barely go inside the instance and hit track to see if a raid boss is up always bugged me. FD bugged me the same way, though it at least took a lot more effort. I have mixed feelings about sneak, but it makes sense that a rogue could sneak a certain distance to at least check if the first boss (if it's a linear-ish zone design) has spawned.
I also enjoyed PoTime's raid split mechanic with waves of trash combined with bosses. Obviously it would be different without an instance, but you get the idea. It would also require the whole raid to be there instead of part of the raid starting to clear trash mobs while the rest are still trickling in (CoH etc so those others could skip trash). I personally feel like that adds to the rush (character movement and excitement) of competetive raiding.
Dullahan said:Grimix said:Amsai said:I like the general direction of this thread. The only thing Id add is I am not a fan of the phrase "Trash Mobs". Mobs that gaurd/block the way to a Named should not just be an annoynace but something dangerous and to be feared. Lack of skill or planning should result in a wipe. Respect the "trash"!
This is how I feel as well, I hate the term trash mob because I literally see no point in fighting them other than blocking content. More care should be given to trash mobs to give them some meaning other than fodder lol
Well in EQ, many raid level trash mobs had a chance of dropping rare spells or items. Still trash compared to loot from 'named' mobs, but not entirely worthless.
Trash mobs are really necessary for many reasons. They can serve as a trial leading up to the more important mobs. They can make an area more dangerous. They can create a more believeable environment creating the semblance of a working society among an enemy faction. They can hide the status of a raid target for reasons I explained above. They can be purely a time sink so mobs don't become free loot pinatas.
Totally agree here. There is a supposed to be an epic struggle and or fight getting to boss mobs or end content. The concept of just getting to the boss just for the sake of getting there faster to reap the benefits faster is not a recipe for a good experience. This mentality and or concept has not only ruined games it taints the genera.
Ox
Kalgore said:Dullahan said:Grimix said:Amsai said:I like the general direction of this thread. The only thing Id add is I am not a fan of the phrase "Trash Mobs". Mobs that gaurd/block the way to a Named should not just be an annoynace but something dangerous and to be feared. Lack of skill or planning should result in a wipe. Respect the "trash"!
This is how I feel as well, I hate the term trash mob because I literally see no point in fighting them other than blocking content. More care should be given to trash mobs to give them some meaning other than fodder lol
Well in EQ, many raid level trash mobs had a chance of dropping rare spells or items. Still trash compared to loot from 'named' mobs, but not entirely worthless.
Trash mobs are really necessary for many reasons. They can serve as a trial leading up to the more important mobs. They can make an area more dangerous. They can create a more believeable environment creating the semblance of a working society among an enemy faction. They can hide the status of a raid target for reasons I explained above. They can be purely a time sink so mobs don't become free loot pinatas.
Exactly trash mobs end up being Speed bumps that sometimes drop a nice spell. Trash mobs also serve as practice both for the raid leader and your raid force. A lazy raid leader will not give instructions or investigate. A lazy raid force will be pulling a trash mob and aggro 4 more. Trash mobs should still be hard in the aspect if your tank is worthless and pulls 2 instead of 1 you should wipe. Other then that it really should serve as a speed bump so you can Speed mod 30 names ina night of raiding
Generally agree.. I hate the idea of damage sponge trash though. Vex Thal and PoTime teir 3 trash was an annoyance not needed. Make clearing to boss not fighting hordes of 'trash'.. make it a challenge and effectively a 'trial' for whats ahead by quality of enemy instead of quantity or raw hp. Also give trash unique loot, like spells only obtained from that area or quest peices for unique items.