Hello forums,
I am going to bring up multi-layered abilities in this thread which is something I touched a little upon in another thread I made specifically about tanks. If you do not want to participate in the creation of these abilities I would very much like to atleast hear what you think about these type of abilities. Pro's and Cons are a plus when you respond as I want to know the good and the bad (like most people). I would like to know what everyone thinks about the idea of having multi-layered abilities for ALL classes and I would also like ideas of what your suggested multi-layered ability would be. It’s time to brainstorm, Pantheon Forums!
Benefits of these abilities.
Example abilities: Keep in mind the first two abilities are removed as the final ability replaces them both.
Warrior-Tank
Taunt [8s CD]: Greatly increase your threat against target
Melee Strikes [3s CD]: Deal X damage to target creature.
Combine to create
Heavy Strikes [3s CD]: Deal X damage to target creature. Every third strike deals increased damage and greatly increases your threat against the target.
This is a good ability because it free’s up a common ability which is spammed but has little to no visual affect within the game. Taunt has served to be the most boring lackluster but important ability a Tank has. Splitting up taunts ability between one or more abilities would free tanks from the boring ‘keep this button down’ ability which again doesn’t give anything visually appealing to us. Adding a bonus at the third attack gives players an incentive to make sure they hit three times which in turn helps the player TANK.
Also if itemization becomes a thing. Increasing haste on a Tank could benefit a lot. Dropping Heavy Strikes to 2 seconds would mean a taunt every 6 seconds. This could be augmented more by letting the ability trigger it’s taunt affect upon critical with the ability itself.
Cleric-Healer
Healing wind [20s CD]: Heals all party and raid members within X yards by X.
Holy explosion [10s CD]: Deals X damage to all hostile creatures within X yards.
Combine to create
Sacred light [14s CD] Sacred light erupts from the ground in a X yard radius healing all party and raid members for X and dealing X damage to hostile creatures.
This will allow healers to use an important AOE heal effectively in and out of group. This ability will not be a skill a player needs to dust off because their entire gameplay changes when they are within a group, this is their go-to AOE damage tool.
Enchanter-DPS/CC/Buffer
Aether Flows [5s CD]: You lose X mana and give X mana to target player.
Primal Tether [12s CD]: Deal X damage to target creature, you gain X mana.
Combine to create
Ethereal Tether [8s CD]: Deal X damage to hostile creature. You and the party or raid member with the lowest mana gain X mana. When cast on a party or raid member, you lose X mana and they gain X mana.
This free’s up an ability without losing any of the toolkit. This also can be visually fun to see tethers between you, the enemy, and your ally. Or a different spell effect when used on just an ally. The main reason this is a great choice of a Multi-Layered ability, is like the healer ability above it can be used in and out of a group. This is not an ability you need to dust off, it could be the staple of your class which happens to become more useful when in a group.
To me the depth of abilities show me the extent of ‘care’ the developer may have had for class gameplay. The option to use one ability in two or more different situations keeps me on the look-out for ways to have fun. I think Multi-layered abilities should be in every single class. Keep in mind not EVERY ability need be a multi-layered ability. But it is fun to have one or more of them.
Please come up with some more abilities in this format for other classes. How creative can you be? Again, creation of abilities isn't required to participate. Please share what you feel about these types of abilities and how do you think they have benefited (or hurt?) other games?
Thank you for your participation,
-Todd
1. Those spells look a little too close to WoW spells.
2. I don't want spells like EQ2. Everyone knows by now, that I absolutely Hated EQ 2 because of the spells. They Sucked. I basically just face-rolled the keyboard while playing EQ2.
Look at this spell. it decreases this, boosts that, does this for 15%, does that for 179% and that is apprentice I, all those values change for Adept I, Adept II, Adept III, Master I, Master II, Master III, Master IV,
Master XXXXIIII, Master XXXXVVVVIIIII, Jedi Master VI, Jedi Master XXII, Jedi Master XXXVI, etc.
TERRIBLE. Now try to remember all that across 4 or 5 characters each having 75 spells each.
I will take my heal like this: You healed Bob for 300 hit points. done.
Your spell ideas are creative and i get what you mean. I jus don't want spells doing 3-6 things with one button. i AM wondering what the 3 squares under the spells are going to do in Pantheon!
Medjai said:1. Those spells look a little too close to WoW spells.
2. I don't want spells like EQ2. Everyone knows by now, that I absolutely Hated EQ 2 because of the spells. They Sucked. I basically just face-rolled the keyboard while playing EQ2.
Look at this spell. it decreases this, boosts that, does this for 15%, does that for 179% and that is apprentice I, all those values change for Adept I, Adept II, Adept III, Master I, Master II, Master III, Master IV,
Master XXXXIIII, Master XXXXVVVVIIIII, Jedi Master VI, Jedi Master XXII, Jedi Master XXXVI, etc.
TERRIBLE. Now try to remember all that across 4 or 5 characters each having 75 spells each.
I will take my heal like this: You healed Bob for 300 hit points. done.
Your spell ideas are creative and i get what you mean. I jus don't want spells doing 3-6 things with one button. i AM wondering what the 3 squares under the spells are going to do in Pantheon!
Couldnt agree more! when it comes to spells it best to follow the old KISS principle.....
Going to agree with Sevens/Medjai. EQ2 is a perfect example of how abilities with multiple components can get out of hand.
That isn't to say I'm against any spell having multiple components, just that I don't think it should be the norm and it should be done with caution. The idea behind a limited spell/ability bar is that you have to pick and choose what you have access to at any given time.
I agree with OP in making strict Melee and strict healing classses more layered ( but I am thinking like origami)
Pro: The skill tree mechanic mentioned by the devs way way back may be a partial solution to this as whatever skill path is taken or branched out to connect with another skill path creates a unique ability.
Pro & Con: Something that goes beyond "weapon-quest" for a melee character. I define weapon quest as collecting of strange and "wow!" (impressive) melee only weapons and armor with the embedded inventory management "mini-game" that is the rightfully criticised where they stare at all their open bags in the bank for 20min in a similar manner that causes parents to scold their adolescent for staring at an open 'fridge when hungry, for the waste of energy.
Imagined Pro: I liked some of the Mele type abilities (I think abilities can be thought if as melee spells) like taunt, bash, kick. and I would like to see more added maybe in the skill branching. This is a good venue for thrill-factor animation,not over-the-top but somehting that brings visual thrill to the group, i.e. seeing the tank take his mace in both hands and swing it like a bat at the had of a monster thhat then shows an equally disturbing reaction- something that makes the onlooker cover their mouth and go "day-um!".
In the Final Fantasys series there was one ability I remembered that was awarded after a small quest line. The girl in the added party had an ability where she cried- and that caused some monsters to be ashamed and prevented form attacking, it was like a short range AoE mez. When the added party left the group, this ability was gifted to whomever and I accidentally gave it to my weapon wielder and it was hilarious to see them...cry before they attacked and shamed 3 of the 6 monsters allowing the melee to attack those that were "awake". Hilarious because I did not realize the animation was also transferered over; imagine an oger boo-hooing (preposterous!)
Healers:
One of the things I noticed about clerics in EQ was how so many felt a sense of accomplishment in being able to solo LB maybe some DB monsters on their own.
I met one in Akheva ruins when no friends were on and I was going for mind worm hides for tailoring practice. we were 55-60 ish? but she loved it. Didnt want to group lol we had our own seperate camps ansd spoke out loud to socialize- of course helped each other if needed. But those were mind worms they sucked manaif they hit you- she loved it.
Pro's :I like the idea of sttrict healing classes being able to wear heavy armor, and have a specialty against the unholy or undead. For variety I would like to see this flipped for evil clerics with a specialty FOR the unholy or undead (situational cleric pets?)
Con's: In raid situations I am familair with, the role of a cleric is crucial but boring for the player. I get the impression that clerics would like to "stop! for just a minute please" and reflect on the goings on briefly, before proceeding with the frantic raid. They also have a built in and personal sense of failure if someone in their group dies or they did not get a heal off in time- dont get me wrong this tension is the thing that drives clerics and proves player-ability. So you can see why most really enjoyed being able to solo at some times because also they have no one to account to but themselves; and generally, we like to be easy on ourselves.
Pro's: Clerics usually win PvP duels, they are long, but they win. Imagining: I can see alot of thrill factor in a raid type event where only the clerics remain standing. Everyone thinks is a wipe and just a matter of time- then in the silence only the clerics remain standing- The Roar of cheers from the raid would rival that of any football stadium on a winning touchdown in the superbowl and allow the clerics to swell in their quiet, palpable, stoicism. Maybe the balance would be clerics being the better or only solo'ers- makingit more efficient for them to group to get faster kills.
I think spells can be creative without having to do 3-6 things Per Spell. Guild wars II Mezmer is a good example of this: ( and many other games, this is just One example)
Mez is Mez but I like the way the Mezmer had a spell to summon illusions for a few seconds to deal a little damage and you would sacrifice those illusions to do something else.
I thought it was cool. and was a little different. Also in RIFT, the Chloromancer ( healing Mage ) could channel DPS into a Mob for an AE heal. etc.
here is mezmer example:
Speaking of GW 2 - one thing that game got right was spell synergy. For example, an elementalist could lay down a fire field and do X amount of fire damage. If another player performed a special ability within that fire field, they would not only do their Y amount of damage, but would also generate a fire shield for themselves that can do additional damage. I did not see many players try to deliberately use that capability in the game.
Since group play will be emphasized here, I would like to see some spell and ability synergy. For example a group is going up against some undead mobs. A cleric lays down a ward that does a certain amount of damage. The crusader player executes some spell or melee ability over the ward that does damage and the synergy between the two does extra damage, turns, or sets the undead on fire. Just a quick example.
I like this in parts but I think that it could end up in the problem of losing the purpose of the class. I would think that if you take a dedicated heal and a dedicated DPS spell and mixed them that they would become dilluted and neither effect would be as powerful. I like the idea that the classes have their specifics and I think if you mixed spells then it could come back to how a lot of games out there are soloable throughout. This is something that could work but would have to be very very careful in implementation.
I also like systems in some MMOs where the different spells can interact with objects. For example a mage casts a wall of flame between the ranged classes and the mob. A ranger shooting through the fire adds fire to the arrow. Or the same could be with the healer casting an area of healing energy and the before mentioned arrow can pull healing energies with it to the group in front. Or the tank can swing his weapon through the field and augment his attacks for a short time.
I dont think this is a bad in small doses. And when I say that I mean small addtions to existing abilities. But I think Id rather see something like that in the form of AAs. Small additions or increasing in performance of existing abilities only. I wouldnt want to see combining of abilities.
So maybe have a DoT that you can improve through AAs. Such as lowering the mana required, increasing the damage pet tick, or adding a burst of damage at the end of the DoT. And whatever happens the changes would need to be consistant with the role and not undermine the importance of interdependence.
Having played EQ1 as Mage, Cleric and Warrior I do see what you are trying to accomplish... BUT... I worry that the layering of spells (it seems to be a case of 'linking' or 'combining' 2 spells into one) will drag people down the line of blurring the boundaries between classes and their individual roles.
EQ starterd with 8 (rising to 10 with AAs) spell slots and 8-10 'button' slots. With the ability to use buttons to fire off a spell in addition to an action, Eg '/stand; /cast awesome-heal; /gsay %T stay in range if u want to live; /sit.
As a Mage I spent a *lot* of time re-loading spells, switching between 'summon stuff' spells and 'group nuke/support' spells. However, what i suspect you are really trying to address is the 'tedium' for Clerics and Warriors (in many situations, particularly raids) where they have a singular job to do
Possible solutions that Don't need 'extras' added to spells etc:
1. Warriors start game with offence:defence at 50:50 and can vary it between 40:60 and 60:40. Moving up levels, learning specials etc would allow this to be bxtended firther. An elite fighter who has got many special or hidden teaching from isolated weapon masters deep in far-flung caves may have the ability to move offence:defence between 10:90 and 90:10 or anywhere in-between. Thus, just this variation cold allow him to vary his defence when needed at teh expense of his dmg output, then things were going better, move the slider up towards 90% offence etc.
2. Clerics could follow a 'path' within the confines of their deity, building faction/prestige towards the 'battle cleric' or 'better healer' ends of the spectrum - though the opposites should be worked to mirror the deitie's loves and hates. A battle-cleric of one god may just be better at nuking undead while the 'better healer' end of another god may find their heals give a faint 'lull' effect (or reduced taunt perhaps).
Neither of these change the abilities or function of the profession, but add an extra 'flavour' to how they do things.
One type of warrior may be better at off-tanking several lesser mobs while the other may be better at going bersek and chewing their faces off (if he lives)
One type of cleric may be better at nuking enemies but can only heal ogres for 1/2 value and takes a deity prestige hit, while another may find all his nukes are more easily resisted but his soothes and lulls are much harder to resist and last longer.
Thus warriors and Clerics won't be able to 'just face-roll' through their standard kick/taunt/bash/chop/repeat. Like Wizzies who have to be careful about how much they nuke early on etc, Warriors would now have to think about moving mroe defensive at teh start of a fight, but not too much else he wont hold aggro etc
Anyway - it is an idea.
Dullahan said:Going to agree with Sevens/Medjai. EQ2 is a perfect example of how abilities with multiple components can get out of hand.
That isn't to say I'm against any spell having multiple components, just that I don't think it should be the norm and it should be done with caution. The idea behind a limited spell/ability bar is that you have to pick and choose what you have access to at any given time.
Agreed, I am curious if they could limit the spells like. I Am sure they could but the open ended question is should they?
Ox