Please read my disclaimer.
1: I know several threads have been started and have turned into flame wars. Please do not do that lets have a nice discussion
2: If you dont plan on PVPing No need to answer in this thread
3: I know Pantheon is a PVE based game but like any Awesome PVE game some people like to add PVP to it for added fun no need to point out this is a PVE game
4: Please dont complain that you dont want PVP rules affecting PVE in no way shape or form does that have to happen
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I am a huge PVPER EQ and EQ2 as wqell as Age of Conan and I loved aspects of each and wo9uld like to learn about other PVP people have played as well as there idea's on how to improve it.
EQ2 had great PVP I feel. Granted some of the classes could be Overpowered until fixed but the rewards you got from PVP made it all the more fun. Not to mention ganking 4x raids pulling contested Avatar.
I loved the Age of Conan guild wars and the Keep system I would love to see that mixed in with normal PVP as well. Building repairing and upgrading your guild keep was such a social builder.
I loved EQ pvp, I would however disagree about EQ2 PVP, as there were some major flaws with the game's pvp. Most notably the fact that when you died you respawned very close to where you died, this caused your "avatar" fights to be nothing more than 2-3 raids of people standing on opposite sides of zoneline waiting each other out, because you could not kill the boss before the enemy raid was upon you and stopping you, and then even if you lost, you could be back stopping them within seconds.
EQ PVP is the pinnacle of PVP over PVE imo. If you die you spawn at your bind at the nearest city, and besides a surviving cleric to rez you(never happened), you're out of that fight.
Rallyd said:I loved EQ pvp, I would however disagree about EQ2 PVP, as there were some major flaws with the game's pvp. Most notably the fact that when you died you respawned very close to where you died, this caused your "avatar" fights to be nothing more than 2-3 raids of people standing on opposite sides of zoneline waiting each other out, because you could not kill the boss before the enemy raid was upon you and stopping you, and then even if you lost, you could be back stopping them within seconds.
EQ PVP is the pinnacle of PVP over PVE imo. If you die you spawn at your bind at the nearest city, and besides a surviving cleric to rez you(never happened), you're out of that fight.
I will agree with the Revive points some were really close.
I will allow this thread but please keep it on topic and about Pantheon PvP, same rules apply as with the other PvP threads, these are opinions and suggestions only as we are yet to see enough of an interest for PvP and are focussed on PvE. We would love to open some PvP servers and give them some rulesets and extra love but in doing so, nothing would affect the PvE servers, so PvEers can rest easy.
We have no information or answers to any PvP questions as it would be something we can discuss during testing when we can measure the amount of interest more accurately.
This is purely discussion about what PvPers may want from their separate PvP servers, so please do not post hate in here or start arguments or they will be removed so the thread can stay open. :)
My biggest gripe with PVP is random griefing/pking with no provocation. I think this could be solved by having what I call a "Wanted" system.
Being PVP you cannot stop people from PKing, but if you PK enough people within a certain time frame, you become "Wanted" and your name changes red. While wanted, others can PK you and will not be counted towards their wanted level. There may even be vigalante guilds that hunt down known PKers. Once you are PKed a certain number of times you are no longer wanted. This would allow people to PK once in while but if you go overboard you will be targeted by many players.
If your guild declares a "guild war" with another guild, and that war is accepted, you can PK members of that guild without any limitations until the war is ended. That way if certain guilds want permanent PK enabled they can with guilds of choice. Some guilds may exist for permanent full PK if that is your thing and those players will able to identify by the guild.
I played Rallos Zek PVP as my first server in EQ and I loved it. Kill any player, anywhere at any time. Loot one item, all carried cash and send them back to their bind point. Really no better PVP has ever existed. It was only years later when I really started playing the game that I realized how much more fun strategy can be over chaos. That was when I changed servers.
I can say that a lot of my EQ memories that I actually retain in my old age revolve around the strife that I encountered on that server. I still remember this ranger who was always in the commonlands that my wife and I would battle all the time back then. We are talking about over 15 years ago and we can still be anywhere and if someone is being really annoying we can look at each other and one of us will say "Massing!" (The rangers name) and we remember what a pain in the ass that guy was. Great ranger, good enough for me to remember him being a challenging adversary.
I like PvP but for an MMO it depends on how it is set up. If it is just seiges and territory control only then Im out. I dont mind those things being in by the way, but not only them. The best PvP to me will always be PvPvE. Things like Raid dungeon thats open world so its not just about killing the Raid target, its also about fighting off the other guilds. An improvement to that idea is the use of a fortess that a guild can control with a Raid boss in its dungeon. So as a defender you try to keep the Raid boss from the other guilds, as an invader you try to siege you way in.
But territory control for bragging rights, or points, or even crafting materials is boring to me. That being said, Im all for Guild and FFA PvP. Not in love with Realm vs Realm or even Realm vs Realm vs Realm, but I could be ok with that as long as the PvP wasnt (imo) superficially territory control. I do afterall NEED epic PvE as well so I think its important the 2 are mixed together in a blender. However, Im never for looting or being looted by other players. If this was some generic land and resource PvP and everything was crafted and degraded like say Darkfall, then I wouldnt care. But with some items in epic PvE content possibly taking years to get, them being easily looted is a bit ridiculous.
I think it should be basically PvE, with the exception being PVP as guild wars, in the PVE environment. so there is no chance at ganking a player unless they were in a guild that had a war going on. With Arena's being the only place where non warring or warring people can duel and perhaps settle disputes. Based on the possible mechanic for spawns in Pantheon ( similar to Vanguard) there will be little need for issues over contested monsters, but rather the PK factor will be for skill, challenge, "best in class" bragging rights and most things associated with pugilistic sporting events. I like watching Kung Fu fights, don't you?
Krixus said:I loved PVP in vanilla wow, playing on a pvp server added so much spice to the game. It was exciting to have my head on a swivel at all times and to flip out and be hyper aggressive when people would mess with me.
I never played WOW what was some of the things you really liked.
Amsai said:I like PvP but for an MMO it depends on how it is set up. If it is just seiges and territory control only then Im out. I dont mind those things being in by the way, but not only them. The best PvP to me will always be PvPvE. Things like Raid dungeon thats open world so its not just about killing the Raid target, its also about fighting off the other guilds. An improvement to that idea is the use of a fortess that a guild can control with a Raid boss in its dungeon. So as a defender you try to keep the Raid boss from the other guilds, as an invader you try to siege you way in.
But territory control for bragging rights, or points, or even crafting materials is boring to me. That being said, Im all for Guild and FFA PvP. Not in love with Realm vs Realm or even Realm vs Realm vs Realm, but I could be ok with that as long as the PvP wasnt (imo) superficially territory control. I do afterall NEED epic PvE as well so I think its important the 2 are mixed together in a blender. However, Im never for looting or being looted by other players. If this was some generic land and resource PvP and everything was crafted and degraded like say Darkfall, then I wouldnt care. But with some items in epic PvE content possibly taking years to get, them being easily looted is a bit ridiculous.
I liked EQ2 PVP for this reason. You had level limits in most zones. So if you were in Kylong plains a high lvl zone the limit was unlimited anyone could attack anyone. But the starting area you could only attack someone withen 4 levels of you. It changed on each zone. they also had a few safe areas in each zone to rest or group up and as you left a count down started until you could be attacked (30 seconds.) They also had contested Raids where a guild would have to worry about being attacked as they pulled.
Jamie said:I played Rallos Zek PVP as my first server in EQ and I loved it. Kill any player, anywhere at any time. Loot one item, all carried cash and send them back to their bind point. Really no better PVP has ever existed. It was only years later when I really started playing the game that I realized how much more fun strategy can be over chaos. That was when I changed servers.
I can say that a lot of my EQ memories that I actually retain in my old age revolve around the strife that I encountered on that server. I still remember this ranger who was always in the commonlands that my wife and I would battle all the time back then. We are talking about over 15 years ago and we can still be anywhere and if someone is being really annoying we can look at each other and one of us will say "Massing!" (The rangers name) and we remember what a pain in the ass that guy was. Great ranger, good enough for me to remember him being a challenging adversary.
Haha I have several memories like that as well. I loved Rallos ZEK PVP but I did hate the item drop when I died. I played Rallos PVP until I started EQ2 and found stratagy was even better
bigdogchris said:My biggest gripe with PVP is random griefing/pking with no provocation. I think this could be solved by having what I call a "Wanted" system.
Being PVP you cannot stop people from PKing, but if you PK enough people within a certain time frame, you become "Wanted" and your name changes red. While wanted, others can PK you and will not be counted towards their wanted level. There may even be vigalante guilds that hunt down known PKers. Once you are PKed a certain number of times you are no longer wanted. This would allow people to PK once in while but if you go overboard you will be targeted by many players.
If your guild declares a "guild war" with another guild, and that war is accepted, you can PK members of that guild without any limitations until the war is ended. That way if certain guilds want permanent PK enabled they can with guilds of choice. Some guilds may exist for permanent full PK if that is your thing and those players will able to identify by the guild.
My issue with this is if it is Open world PVP. Its hard to remember who you killed. We had battles where we killed several hunderd players in minutes because of them zerging a well equipped raid force. Also putting a limit on how many times you can killsomeone takes away a core of PVP I feel.
EQ2 had a system where if you were on a recent kill list you got nothing for the kill no credit no gold nothing so it became pointless to PK over and over unless you really hated that system. I think the recent was 10 players and you could push people off by killing more then 10
If I could have EQ2's pvp system verbatim, I'd be happy. Maybe with some minor tweaks.
Fame/infamy system details:
That doesn't really cover the entire system, but it's close. Keep in mind that EQ2 pvp worked with a two faction system, similar to WoW. Good/evil, alliance/horde.
Kalgore said:My issue with this is if it is Open world PVP. Its hard to remember who you killed. We had battles where we killed several hunderd players in minutes because of them zerging a well equipped raid force. Also putting a limit on how many times you can killsomeone takes away a core of PVP I feel.
To be fair, I don't think Pantheon will have a playerbase or the mechanics to facilitate massive scale zerg pvp. Just my 2c.
Liav said:Kalgore said:My issue with this is if it is Open world PVP. Its hard to remember who you killed. We had battles where we killed several hunderd players in minutes because of them zerging a well equipped raid force. Also putting a limit on how many times you can killsomeone takes away a core of PVP I feel.
To be fair, I don't think Pantheon will have a playerbase or the mechanics to facilitate massive scale zerg pvp. Just my 2c.
I would hope not but it was more of a Why I dont like a wanted system. After all that zerging we would all be tagged wanted for no reasons we stayed in the same place and they kept coming to us
I would like to see character abilities kept separate in PvP vs PvE.
There is a different kind of balancing that needs to occur in PvP, however, it should not be at the expense of PvE balance and vice versa. This should give the devs more latitude to properly balance PvP without pissing off the PvE crowd. Some games have done this very well in the past. Ability does X in PvE, but does Y in PvP. Two separately adjustable parameters for both PvP and PvE.
Without this, the PvE and PvP crowds often find themselves at odds with each other as to what class and abilitiy changes should be made. Devs also are not conflicted over nerfing a PvE ability that is working as intended in order to balance PvP.
IMO, separate ability parameters based on target (PC vs NPC) is the way to go.
Dekaden said:I would like to see character abilities kept separate in PvP vs PvE.
There is a different kind of balancing that needs to occur in PvP, however, it should not be at the expense of PvE balance and vice versa. This should give the devs more latitude to properly balance PvP without pissing off the PvE crowd. Some games have done this very well in the past. Ability does X in PvE, but does Y in PvP. Two separately adjustable parameters for both PvP and PvE.
Without this, the PvE and PvP crowds often find themselves at odds with each other as to what class and abilitiy changes should be made. Devs also are not conflicted over nerfing a PvE ability that is working as intended in order to balance PvP.
IMO, separate ability parameters based on target (PC vs NPC) is the way to go.
Thats how EQ2 did it. You could checka box on the spell description or item and it would show PVP values. a PVE spell might hit for 50k damage but in PVP it would only hit for maybe 1000 or 2k all depending. From my understanding this kept it all seperate different values had to be entered each time but it never affected each other unless it was some massive glitch or bug
From the FAQ:
Pantheon is primarily a PvE (player vs. environment) game. In fact, when we say ‘environment’, we don’t just mean NPCs, but also contending with climates and atmospheres, the very world itself. That said, we understand that a portion of our target audience also enjoys player vs. player. Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP servers we would launch with. It is also worth mentioning that, when we do eventually focus on PvP we will do so such that tweaks and changes to classes and races in order to make PvP more fun will not affect the balance of Pantheon’s PvE experience.
Ok does that mean the PVP will be fully pvp world on the server designated? I know we had dedicated servers for PVP in EQ and other games had the ability to go play in arenas designed for it. Was curious if that was ironed out yet? Also, to stay on topic will there be a way to do PVP on the PVE servers?
Ox
Oxillion said:From the FAQ:
Pantheon is primarily a PvE (player vs. environment) game. In fact, when we say ‘environment’, we don’t just mean NPCs, but also contending with climates and atmospheres, the very world itself. That said, we understand that a portion of our target audience also enjoys player vs. player. Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP servers we would launch with. It is also worth mentioning that, when we do eventually focus on PvP we will do so such that tweaks and changes to classes and races in order to make PvP more fun will not affect the balance of Pantheon’s PvE experience.
Ok does that mean the PVP will be fully pvp world on the server designated? I know we had dedicated servers for PVP in EQ and other games had the ability to go play in arenas designed for it. Was curious if that was ironed out yet? Also, to stay on topic will there be a way to do PVP on the PVE servers?
Ox
Nothing set in stone. Brad did say he would like to see FFA pvp servers as well as some sort of Realm vs realm or guild war PVP as well. Im hoping for either Free for all or like faction vs faction with the option to do guild wars like Age of Conan style :D
Kalgore said:Oxillion said:From the FAQ:
Pantheon is primarily a PvE (player vs. environment) game. In fact, when we say ‘environment’, we don’t just mean NPCs, but also contending with climates and atmospheres, the very world itself. That said, we understand that a portion of our target audience also enjoys player vs. player. Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP servers we would launch with. It is also worth mentioning that, when we do eventually focus on PvP we will do so such that tweaks and changes to classes and races in order to make PvP more fun will not affect the balance of Pantheon’s PvE experience.
Ok does that mean the PVP will be fully pvp world on the server designated? I know we had dedicated servers for PVP in EQ and other games had the ability to go play in arenas designed for it. Was curious if that was ironed out yet? Also, to stay on topic will there be a way to do PVP on the PVE servers?
Ox
Nothing set in stone. Brad did say he would like to see FFA pvp servers as well as some sort of Realm vs realm or guild war PVP as well. Im hoping for either Free for all or like faction vs faction with the option to do guild wars like Age of Conan style :D
Thanks Kalgore! GW2 PVP is fun and the WvW is intersting at times. I would be nice to have teh flexibility if one was on a PVE server primarily. This brings up a second question on when is PVP entended for release to the game? PVE first then PVP? I know tons of questions!
Ox
I personally loved some of the WoW PvP like Warsong Gultch or Arathi Basin. There was NOTHING better when you finally get that match that is evenly balanced and it comes down to using the terrain or other elements or flat out playing your toon well to gain an edge and win. The main issue, it was NEVER balanced. In my opinion, they really struggled with nerfing to try and bring balance or ultimately, perfect PvP matches. I would love a system that considered armor score, other skill scores that matter, and a party balance system that matches exact party make up. Four healing toons in one group seemed to always smash other groups with only one or two. Very lopsided!
I also REALLY love the early stages of Archeage PvP out or around the seas. This is some of the most fun I have ever had in any game. It was always so open world and so random. You could take a group of friends out on a few sail boats and try and raid enemy fishing vessels and steal their fish for profit! Many other scenarios as well. And guess what, you may think you got away with the steal, only to get smashed by an enemy convoy that intercepts you on the way back. It was always nerve wracking and so much fun. I really miss it...
So I think I hit it on the head... It comes down to open world, random happenings. Arena or similar fast win scenarios are not my cup of tea. I do not mind open world "timed" events, but class balance is the key here.
Oxillion said:Kalgore said:Oxillion said:From the FAQ:
Pantheon is primarily a PvE (player vs. environment) game. In fact, when we say ‘environment’, we don’t just mean NPCs, but also contending with climates and atmospheres, the very world itself. That said, we understand that a portion of our target audience also enjoys player vs. player. Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP servers we would launch with. It is also worth mentioning that, when we do eventually focus on PvP we will do so such that tweaks and changes to classes and races in order to make PvP more fun will not affect the balance of Pantheon’s PvE experience.
Ok does that mean the PVP will be fully pvp world on the server designated? I know we had dedicated servers for PVP in EQ and other games had the ability to go play in arenas designed for it. Was curious if that was ironed out yet? Also, to stay on topic will there be a way to do PVP on the PVE servers?
Ox
Nothing set in stone. Brad did say he would like to see FFA pvp servers as well as some sort of Realm vs realm or guild war PVP as well. Im hoping for either Free for all or like faction vs faction with the option to do guild wars like Age of Conan style :D
Thanks Kalgore! GW2 PVP is fun and the WvW is intersting at times. I would be nice to have teh flexibility if one was on a PVE server primarily. This brings up a second question on when is PVP entended for release to the game? PVE first then PVP? I know tons of questions!
Ox
I would Hope they focus on PVE first then worry about PVP. After all with out amazing PVE PVP would die just as fast
Again, we are 100% PvE focussed, this will never change, we will open up separate PvP servers that will not affect PvE at all and tweak them to make them fun with different rulesets if enough people are interested in this option.
Other than what I just posted, there is no additional information on PvP and will not be until we get into testing and see how much support here is for it. This thread is for ideas and general suggestions/discussion for PvP servers.