Forums » Crafting

Crafting interdependency

    • 2085 posts
    April 18, 2016 8:40 AM PDT

    Should crafters be allowed to have a limited number of crafts?  The implication is they rely upon other crafters to produce materials for them.

    Me I'm not sure.  I love that it encourages social interaction, but I've seen it fail in other games.  It's incredibly annoying to need something that someone else just isn't making.

    I guess we can just have faith that VR will do a good job of it, but I'd kinda like options too.

    Like even if were relatively expensive, let me buy a limited number of materials from an NPC vendor for the time when I can't find another crafter and I have an urgent order.

    Like let me do 3 crafts that are interdependant even it if the extra crafts require more time and money than if they were all I was training in.

    Like make half my recipes *not* rely upon other players' crafted materials.

    What do we think?

    • 48 posts
    April 18, 2016 10:32 AM PDT

    My viewpoint is that, similar to Vanguard, that crafting is treated as a separate sphere to adventuring.  Each crafter as they level would have to choose a primary profession and would primarily skill up in that tradecraft (tradeskill professions could be changed with work so that a choice would not be a permanent gate).  The act of skilling up would then generate a fixed number of points available to allocate to an open pool of skills from all possible tradeskills.

    Using Vanguard crafting spheres for an example, you would have three primary crafting sphere.  Selecting and/or upgrading skills in your chosen profession at Novice level would only require one skill point.  Choosing an ability outside of your chosen profession would require more points (for example 2 points) for a similar novice level abilities.  Similarly choosing a Journeyman level skill in your chosen profession would require more points than that of a Novice skill (let's say 2 points for example).  Journeyman level outside of your chosen profession might require 4 points.  The higher you go in skill ranks would cost more points as would picking outside of your chosen trade.  Points could only be allocated to those skills through practicing the skills.  Similiar to VG you could also unskill those talents, if you so chose, and use those points to reallocate to another skill.

    The point pool that is able to be earned should be enough to allow one chosen sub-speciality to be fully maxed out.  There should also be enough points left over so that basic novice level abilities could be earned in the other two spheres or a Journeyman status is one secondary field.

    In my opinion this would allow for both some basic level of self sufficiency, but also require higher level components from other characters for desired gear.

    Just my 5cp (value adjusted for inflation since 1999!)

    • 375 posts
    April 19, 2016 3:41 AM PDT

    DaveBowers said:

    My viewpoint is that, similar to Vanguard, that crafting is treated as a separate sphere to adventuring.

     

    Was it?

    Have mentioned this in a different thread here, but since i see it repeated.. how exactly was it separate? They hyped and sold it as such, sure, but was it really?

    Did you or did you not need to combat, aggro, regen, kill, loot, get xp (if your XP was not deactivated) in order to gather mats?

    How is that separate from """adventuring"""? :)

    Separate implies just that, separate. Unrelated, unattached, exclusive at times, independent, on its own.

     

    It wasn't. Even diplomacy wasn't, as after some level, you needed to go to areas you absolutely could not reach. Gating.

     

    edit: I know i keep saying this, but it's really so important to be able to tell the difference between 'presentation' and fact, common 'understanding' of a term and what it really means.


    This post was edited by Aenra at April 19, 2016 3:47 AM PDT
    • 30 posts
    April 19, 2016 7:41 AM PDT

    Slightly off topic I know but I just don't see how you could completely seperate crafting and adventruring in a game like Pantheon.  Unless the devs go with a "node" type harvesting idea it will take money or killing things to be able to buy supplies.  That alone necessitates a link between adventuring and crafting.  Once you have enough money to get your crafting high enough and can make items worth selling then yes you can become separate but you'll probably have to pay a preimum for mats that others who go farm them won't have to consider into their selling price.

     

    Back to the OP topic, I think some level of crafter interdependance would definatly make things better but at the same time I don't think it should block you from advancing in your skils.  Maybe have some sort of a system where the components can add additional stats or effects to the item and allow people to make "no-mod" versions of those items that can be used for skilling but want to get the "mod" version from another crafter for the ones they plan to sell.

    Not sure if that would work with what the VR devs have in mind for crafting but it's an idea.

    • 375 posts
    April 19, 2016 12:11 PM PDT

    It's actually very easy.

    You don't add a mechanic wherein /mining or /node interacting aggroes nearby creatures.

    You don't make wool/cloth/linen drop from mobs but instead be harvested (like it was in VG).

    You insert the nodes in locations where the mobs are yellow (rather than hostile) and/or locations you can reach after (if we get diplomacy) 'z' amount of rep.

    You make sure you add enough spawns of the above.

    You make sure not everyone can master everything, thereby equally dividing players between the resources they might need, escaping queues/respawning waits

    You make sure you can craft to your heart's content all the way up to max tier (that corresponds with max ingame adventuring level)

     

    ..and to keep it as we want it, challenge-based and group-forced..

     

    You make sure nothing good can be crafted without special materials that can only be attained from faction rep, mob drops, etc (this also ensures nobody camps the nodes to farm them like crazy..they are mostly good for leveling up purposes) ((this also eliminates AH overpricing or grinding so as to AH them.. no reason to since they are equally accessible to all, no x+10 mobs, so cannot go myself, i buy them))

    You make sure schematics of worth, just like with mats above, can only be gained after/with 'x' amount of grinding, grouping or raiding

     

    That simple. You give people true, actually independent spheres, and you keep the game as we want it on top :)


    This post was edited by Aenra at April 19, 2016 12:16 PM PDT
    • 30 posts
    April 19, 2016 1:15 PM PDT

    Aenra said:

    You insert the nodes in locations where the mobs are yellow (rather than hostile) and/or locations you can reach after (if we get diplomacy) 'z' amount of rep.

    I did state in my post:

    Arweena said:

    Unless the devs go with a "node" type harvesting idea it will take money or killing things to be able to buy supplies.

     

    I find the next 2 parts of your post to be a direct contradiction to each other

    Aenra said:

    You make sure nothing good can be crafted without special materials that can only be attained from faction rep, mob drops, etc 

    ...

    That simple. You give people true, actually independent spheres, and you keep the game as we want it on top :)

    If all the good crafted items need stuff that is dropped the 2 are, by definition, NOT independent.  

    According to dictonary.com the definition of independent is "not dependent; not depending or contingent uponsomething else for existence, operation, etc." 

     

    So as I stated I don't see a way to make crafting and adventuring completely independent.

    • 375 posts
    April 19, 2016 3:24 PM PDT

    You are missing the point.. purposefully? :)

    - You -can- be level 1 in Adventuring and level 9000 in the Crafting sphere

    - You -can- do the above without a single, ever, not one, combat initiation. Forget kill, not even an initiation/aggroing

    - You -can- literally and for the first time in decades by now, BE a non-combat character. A dedicated Crafter. No combat. Ever. And with Pantheon's progeny system? You can even keep him as such, a dedicated toon

    Now to me, this strikes me as independent alright.

    As to the rest:

     

    Am happy (to assume) you comprehend the reasoning behind special mats and important schematics being drop/faction/grind only.

    In as far as their countering the above? Not at all.

     

    - A dedicated crafter needs not the best(est[est]) gear for him/herself. No incentive to wear it, no incentive to make it, unless profit. Extra profit is choice; choice; not faux-choice, not compulsory. We are still at independent.

    - A dedicated crafter (precisely due to the above) CAN however be of use to others. He makes for them. He recycles. He too helps in keeping the economy going, and in multiple ways. We are still at independent.

    - A dedicated crafter (again due to the above) has no, no impact or bearing on the otherwise challenging, group-forced gameplay of Pantheon. If it's of worth, it still needs be worked for, out there, with others. He does not interfer or bypass this most central tenet. We are still at independent.

     

    If of course at some point our dedicated crafter wishes to level his Adventuring? Go nuts and all the best. But again, that's a choice. He can never do that and still be the best crafter in the server. Fully, utterly independent.

    Clearer now? :)


    This post was edited by Aenra at April 19, 2016 3:28 PM PDT
    • 30 posts
    April 19, 2016 8:38 PM PDT

    Aenra said:

    You are missing the point.. purposefully? :)

    ...

    If of course at some point our dedicated crafter wishes to level his Adventuring? Go nuts and all the best. But again, that's a choice. He can never do that and still be the best crafter in the server. Fully, utterly independent.

    I'm not missing the point, you are using the word "independent" in a way that is counter to it's definition. 

     

    What you are proposing is a system where by LEVELING crafting is independent of adventruing. Which I'm fine with, though in my experience most systems still require you to buy some materials or recipies, not that this is what will happen in Patheon.  

     

    What you are NOT proposing is a system which is 

    Aenra said:

    Fully, utterly independent.

    • 375 posts
    April 20, 2016 3:08 AM PDT

    I already told you why they don't "need" or "have" to buy schematics or mats. Twice. Yet somehow you keep repeating it as a contra-argument.

     

    And i believe i have fully shown why the above is independent; barring the CHOICE of going for the 'golden outcomes', you can do anything crafting related without a single second spent on your "Adventuring" level. Ever. Independent dear does not equate incompatible if it is the semantics troubling you. The above is independent, but such so that, should choice warrant it, its compatibility with the other spheres makes alternatives possible (such as combining spheres).

    If you are a philosophy student, or find merit in philosophising, that is perfectly fine. Usually however theorising comes with arguments. Telling me i'm wrong and ending it there does not suffice.

    As to what Pantheon will and will not have, obviously yes, i doubt they are willing to make such.. leaps. Players have been nicely trained to think that combat=MMO and when that pays, i do not see why anyone would take the effort to erm, complicate things. That however does not invalidate the above :)

    In the meantime, i would ask you to have a look in how SWG handled crafting. I won't tell you where you can do that as it is against the law to do so, but trust me, it may still be.. found

    (it's been many hours, so for the sake of transparency i thought it better to make a new post)

     

    I should mention that crafting is very dear to me.. as is any non pewpewpewpew activity, few of them as there are.. the fact that it's a "slap-on-top-call-it-a-day" activity in literally 100% of the PvE mmos out there does not help either. My tone is more in response to a disbelief regarding what i (genuinelly) believe absolutely possible and benefitting, rather than to you @Arweena as a person.

    If my form of expressing myself is annoying, a response proving my arguments wrong has always been known to shut me up, lol (and i do admit when i'm wrong, always. I just fancy some proof first)

    Mod Edit: Time makes no difference, if your post is still the last one in the thread please edit it instead of double posting. :)


    This post was edited by Kilsin at April 20, 2016 5:17 PM PDT
    • 818 posts
    April 20, 2016 1:32 PM PDT

    To the OP:

    I feel in recent MMO's, when leveling up crafting was relatively easy and inexpensive, it makes sense to not be able to level multiple crafting styles with one character. In those games, everyone and their mother was a crafter simply by virtue of how easy and mind numbingly monotonous it was. In many games, you could literally buy a large number of cheap mats, go to a crafting station, click "Craft All" for a particular item for exp purposes, and go AFK. It's ridiculous. Crafting was a way to play the game while ...not playing.

    Hopefully, Pantheon will not follow this path. Hopefully, crafting will be a comprehensive, engaging, expensive, and time consuming process. One that requires interactions with other crafters AND with those who don't craft. Hopefully it's something that can never be leveled up while going AFK. Hopefully leveling up one craft will be such a stupendous endeavor that even if you DID have the option to level up others, you simply don't have the friggin' time to do it.

    If that's the case, I have no problem with one character being able to level mulitple trades. That would just make those few people who do truly masters of the crafting craft.

    -Tralyan


    This post was edited by Tralyan at April 20, 2016 1:33 PM PDT
    • 375 posts
    April 20, 2016 2:48 PM PDT

    Multiple tradeskills reduce your chances of needing another player's work. Severely. This affects not only overall flow, but the economy as well. While i understand what you want to say, i cannot really agree.

    Definitely with you on effort and time required however :)

    • 17 posts
    June 14, 2016 7:48 PM PDT

    I liked EQ2's model of interdependence when it first came out. I understand why they dumbed it down, but the ideal was really nice, and i feel necessary for a thriving economy.

    Also, having it as a mini game (like in Final Fantasy as well) was a great idea to stop that 'craft all'. I was a dedicated crafter in FF, and I really, really enjoyed it, and enjoyed the market trading side of it as well.

    The only issue for me around crafting, and a character wanting to be a dedicated crafter was cost vs reward. In MMO's it tends towards people underselling each other until the price of the craft is below cost price (of materials) ---> (especially if they gather as well / get guildies to gather for them).. would love to find a way to mitigate that (besides price setting)


    This post was edited by Traiel at June 14, 2016 7:50 PM PDT
    • 707 posts
    June 15, 2016 4:04 PM PDT

    Aenra said:

    DaveBowers said:

    My viewpoint is that, similar to Vanguard, that crafting is treated as a separate sphere to adventuring.

     

    Was it?

    Have mentioned this in a different thread here, but since i see it repeated.. how exactly was it separate? They hyped and sold it as such, sure, but was it really?

     



    It was.

    Though I'm not 100% sure that you could do it all on your own (though once they introduced work orders I feel like they gave you all the neccessary tools/resources to do soiirc) I am 100% certain that you could be level 1 in adventuring and max level in crafting which makes them separate. One of the draws to VG was that most, if not all, gated content that required a specific level allowed the player to reach that requirement through one of the spheres. If something required level 20 or even 50 it didn't have to be strictly adventuring, a player could be level 20 in any of the spheres.

    I understand what you are saying and I think you are more referring to the spheres not being fully independent of each other. To reach max level in crafting without leveling the adventure sphere at all you would have to rely on others to obtain, mainly for mats.

    Aside from work orders, I don't feel that crafting should ever be a fully independent sphere either. I understand of what you have explained to obtain a fully functioning separate and independent 'sphere' but should not tier 5 resources be hard to get? To make crafting fully independent and self-functioning you'd need the ability to harvest resources without fighting mobs or requiring skills to traverse any land and I just feel like higher tiered resources should be in more dangerous areas. A few reasons why resources are tiered is because of their unique qualities, their location, and their availability. Obsidian is definitely a higher tiered resource over say steel but not solely because it has better qualities like being harder but it is also in harder to reach areas which requires a person of some form of skill. I don't think it realistic for a level 1 adventurer to be able to harvest high tiered resources such as obsidian on their own.

    • 353 posts
    June 17, 2016 3:31 AM PDT

    NoobieDoo said:

    Aenra said:

    DaveBowers said:

    My viewpoint is that, similar to Vanguard, that crafting is treated as a separate sphere to adventuring.

     

    Was it?

    Have mentioned this in a different thread here, but since i see it repeated.. how exactly was it separate? They hyped and sold it as such, sure, but was it really?

     



    It was.

    Though I'm not 100% sure that you could do it all on your own (though once they introduced work orders I feel like they gave you all the neccessary tools/resources to do soiirc) I am 100% certain that you could be level 1 in adventuring and max level in crafting which makes them separate. One of the draws to VG was that most, if not all, gated content that required a specific level allowed the player to reach that requirement through one of the spheres. If something required level 20 or even 50 it didn't have to be strictly adventuring, a player could be level 20 in any of the spheres.

    I understand what you are saying and I think you are more referring to the spheres not being fully independent of each other. To reach max level in crafting without leveling the adventure sphere at all you would have to rely on others to obtain, mainly for mats.

    Aside from work orders, I don't feel that crafting should ever be a fully independent sphere either. I understand of what you have explained to obtain a fully functioning separate and independent 'sphere' but should not tier 5 resources be hard to get? To make crafting fully independent and self-functioning you'd need the ability to harvest resources without fighting mobs or requiring skills to traverse any land and I just feel like higher tiered resources should be in more dangerous areas. A few reasons why resources are tiered is because of their unique qualities, their location, and their availability. Obsidian is definitely a higher tiered resource over say steel but not solely because it has better qualities like being harder but it is also in harder to reach areas which requires a person of some form of skill. I don't think it realistic for a level 1 adventurer to be able to harvest high tiered resources such as obsidian on their own.

     

    i remember taking guild crafters into high level zones so they could inspect ruins and such to gain uber recipes... we would have like 3 groups to escort the level one (adventure level) crafters into level 40 or 50 zones because of the aggro draw.

    • 707 posts
    June 17, 2016 9:00 PM PDT

    I'm hoping they create scenarios like this with Pantheon. I know of another MMO on the horizon that is making this a BIG part of their game; designed content where crafters will need to group with adventurers and vice versa to overcome the task at hand. I don't care if in Pantheon you could strictly craft and never once lift up a weapon or spell but I'd love it if there were moments where a member or two in group had to craft and not fight while the other members fought monsters around them while they crafted. Or some scenario that required crafting and combat to intertwine.

    • 499 posts
    June 21, 2016 10:45 PM PDT

    Should crafters be allowed to have a limited number of crafts? 

    I get really sad when I see something on the ground (a node) that I can't pick up, fish, mine, gather etc. I loved playing Elder Scrolls Online (Top MMORPG 2015) and knowing I could go out and explore and pick up anything I could see. Sure my trade-skills weren't that great ... but I always had fun picking shiney stuff up because I knew there was an inherant worth to them. I also am the kind of person who likes walking on the beach and picking up shells. I know I can't do anything with them, but I still feel there is some value to them.

     

    -Todd

    • 2 posts
    June 23, 2016 9:59 AM PDT

    All people should be able to level everything and craft anything they so desire. There is nothing in real life preventing me from learning a skill I so desire except my own willpower. Adding a function that limits ones desire to do or make something seems a bit counter productive. 

    • 11 posts
    June 23, 2016 10:22 AM PDT

    Xrispie said:

    All people should be able to level everything and craft anything they so desire. There is nothing in real life preventing me from learning a skill I so desire except my own willpower. Adding a function that limits ones desire to do or make something seems a bit counter productive. 

     

    I agree with your point. But I belive if they don't implement some sort of "specialization" into one or two spheres, it would effect the global economy and make crafting less attractive. If you make players specialize, the community would be dependent on each other for the grand items, forcing them to exchange goods and services to complete the big stuff. 
    I think it's autentic to make you able to learn the basics of all spheres, but to craft the advanced stuff you would have to make a choice of specialization.
    Interested in hearing other thoughts.

    • 17 posts
    June 23, 2016 4:57 PM PDT

    I agree to a point with Xrispie, in that there is nothing stopping someone learning to paint, do jewellery, do swordsmithing, while saving the world and crafting armour and being a master chef.... except if you look at real life we tend to specialise... i.e a true jeweller will devote all of their limited resources (time etc) to the pursuit of 1 craft.. a journeyman. So I would say that looking at real life, it is more reasonable to limit crafts to 1 or 2, because in reality thats what people who devote their full attention to a craft can realistically achieve. For example, a friend of mine is a Jeweller, and has someone who has been an apprentice for 6 years... hes been there for 15 years, and would now be considered 'a journeyman'. His father, who has been in the profession for 50 years, is probably considered a Master craftsman.

    The thought that he would be able to also become a Master Swordsmith, Master Chef, Master Tailor, Master Merchant as well is almost ludicrous.

    If there is no dedicated crafting class in the game, then our profession will be 'adventurer' - with some dabbling on the side for crafting, and therefore less likely that someone who focuses on combat, and 'saving the world' would have the resources to become a Master Craftsman.

    So based on the above I don't feel that limiting crafting to 1 or 2 crafts is unreasonable.

    Also, if you look at real life as your guide, it should take weeks to create masterful items - suit of plate armour, a fine piece of jewellery etc, and years of real life to even become proficient!  Also, since in medieaval times it was harder to find and become an apprentice of a Master Crafter it should technically be almost impossible to find someone to train you!

    Obviously games model real life - but a model will always be a simplification - so what simplification makes sense for the game?

    If the core claim of this game is to 'restore' community to MMO's, then you want interaction. If someone can craft everything, then they can do everything alone, with no interaction with trade, or guild/friends.

    Also, as stated above, you need an active economy - and generally MMO's don't have enough sinks into the economy to keep currency balanced, or enough reason to be using the market. Therefore, crafting should be essential, and should be interdependent

     

    I would go a step further to say that the game almost needs a soft price fixing for mats, components and finished product to ensure crafters have a place, and are able to make profit from the goods they create!

     

    What I think Xrispie was really saying, is that in MMO's once i have mastered a craft, why should I not also be able to master other crafts since i have hit max level - it feels artificial at that point to limit crafting, which is a valid feeling!


    This post was edited by Traiel at June 23, 2016 5:08 PM PDT