The Summoner has developed a powerful arcane command to conjure sustenance, tools, barricades, weaponry, even fantastic creatures of incredible strength - all of this at her whim
What do you hope/think these things will be?
My list -
Sustenance: Hopefully it's good unique stuff that stays useful, but I don't have an idea of what or how.
Tools: Tools to help you and your group in different environments. Things that a group would wish they had a Summoner to help them get past some areas and raids.
Barricades: Not sure what barricades do yet but the first thing that came to mind was a whirlwind that would knock enemies back.
Weaponry: Again, hopefully unique and stays useful. At the very least with all the weakness types, not everyone will remember to bring one of each weapon type and you can help them out.
Creatures: Hoping to see more than just elemental creatures. Maybe some mythical creatures like satyrs and minotaurs and bigger stuff like behemoths, cyclops, dragons, and elementals too. I would actually be curious about seeing a non traditional pet-class Summoner, maybe with limited but more powerful pets. And of course the Bahamut Zero summon :P
Other -
Fun: Fun spells like summoning a random nearby object to you like a book, chair, cat, pig, shrub. Maybe a summon Orc spell. For sure a summon firework spell.
Mount: If you could summon stuff why would you not summon a mount of some kind?
Frostilion said:I think it would be nice to have familiars, I miss the necro from diablo 2... Skeleton army. Maybe summon 5 skeletons for x amount of seconds.
Barricades could be prismatic walls to aid pulling, or help sneak around.
I just saw the last witchunter with Vin Deisel, and there's a scene in the bar where the bad guy summons a wall to block the blow, when I read your post I thought of that immediately.
I dont really like short term spells, and summoning but in eq cotf we had a nice summing to break up multi adds. Our off pets would stop them, or aid in more DPS.
Since we didnt have root spells, or snare type we needed to break up or split the mobs. We could aid our main tanking pets and off tank with short term summoned pets.
Eq changed it and it is no where near as powerful, some dislike it and left the game after cotf. Mages/summoners are not the same anymore and not many guilds want them.
I hope to see the cool summoner type be like the pre nerf type or close to, so we can enjoy the powerful class again. If short burst type summoner, i am not sure ill play a mage. I disliked the Lineage 2 fast casting spells every 1 minute or buffs like the casters had to do.
sustenance, food and drink, bandages/healing items
tools, pretty ambiguous but perhaps items that provide enchantments, or "magic" accessories. Damage shields? Or does that go under barricades? armor for pets and lowbies?
barricades, interesting, temporary walls that provide different forms of protection, or a way to block ingress and egress? Damage shields if they are not tools.
weaponry, for lowbies and my "fantastic creatures", yes please!
fantastic creatures, yes! Many. I think the typical archetypes are ok. earth to tank, water to heal, fire to damage, etc. Would like to see a summoned minion with some CC.
I'd really just love to see something that rivalled the magician from EQ.
I think this is really good topic open for discussion. The Summoner has endless possibilities. In most games they are a DPS class and usually a good one at that. Then they have some small or superficially form of support. I would like to see something more closely resembling what person with summoning power could really do. This would lead to support roles and DPS. More on the support side of things. They could do CC with walls summoning cages or chains. Walls could be place to help with pulls in changing PATs route. They could have some coveted items/weapons that people would pay for similar to how people paid for clarity or the Shaman spells in EQ1. Maybe have in the ability to summon a suppression bubble to help assist with environmental issues or walls to bloke the rays of an issue. They could summon power stones or relics for the area they are in. The list just seems endless to me without still making them OP.
I posted my thoughts about summoned items in another thread in this forum already: Most summoned items just became obsolete and useless with more expansions. Food/drink, bandages, underwater breathing stones, levitation ring, infra/ultravision stones, focus effects, summoned armor all are pretty much pointless in modern EQ. Pretty much only summoned weapons retained their value (and even there, only for other pets), and of course the infamous mod rods.
Now arguably other classes have similar problems (for example druids and wizards losing most of their porting advantage because of PoK portals), but other utility never faded into uselessness. It's really the developers job to make design cool summoned items, AND to ensure that these don't become obsolete with a few more levels (or the next expansion).
I'm not sure if summoners should aim for the CC area (with summoned walls/cages as suggested above). I like the idea, but I don't want to infringe on CC class territory.
Maybe summoner utility could go more into the protection area: For example, mage damage shields always also had some fire resist added. Why not extend this to other buffs (other resist, or "Summon protective sphere" or the like for rune effects)?
I'm with you Sarim in that the wrong choice of summoned items will eventually become useless as more world items are discovered and found with effects that essentially negate our summoned items. I would like to see our summoning give us added utility in the form of group enhancements or big pet boosts, and could see some limited CC capability, but not too much. EQ Mages never really had much in terms of root (outside of earth pet) or major CC abilities but did add a bit of nice boosts in damage shields when another class wasn't around to offer them up. But in order for them to really change the class and keep the namesake viable, there will be need to be new and creative ideas for summoned items, so I would not be shocked to see us have something a bit outside of our typical comfort zone.
In terms of what I'd like to see from summoning the most, it would be the ability to summon extra pets or pet features, maybe summon a short duration team of multiple minions for burst damage, or have the option of sacrificing those same minions to add power or perks to your main pet as a sort of short duration buff for certain situations. Or perhaps with the environment supposed to be playing a larger role, we could summon temporary gear sets that could have a role for a time until people play longer and develop full gear sets for each environment. Or summoning something that could enhance/change the environment to the group's benefit or boost colored mana abilities further. In my eyes, these ideas would lend themselves to both the summoning nature of the class and play into the class description of harnessing elements.
EQ has those temporary pets at higher levels, and I think they're a great addition. You can have them up along with your normal pet, which is nice too :)
I'm not certain about summoned gear for certain environments...I am just not happy about summoned items that are destined to become obsolete quickly. I'd rather see more abilities in the form of buffs (Rift elementalist had Ice Shield for example, maybe something like that but targetable?). Instead of summoning gear that protects against a certain environment, why not rather summon a protective sphere around you and your group?
One idea that just came to my mind: What if the summoner could also buff specific items? In order for a player to receive an item buff he has to hold it in his hand, then the summoner summons a buff onto it which will last until log out (or maybe a specific time). So that sword will get +2 damage, that ring will get +2 Intelligence and that boot gets a kickback proc while kicking.
I'd rather see more abilities in the form of buffs (Rift elementalist had Ice Shield for example, maybe something like that but targetable?). Instead of summoning gear that protects against a certain environment, why not rather summon a protective sphere around you and your group?
I can definitely agree with that and would prefer it to any sort of summoned gear. As a class geared towards the elements, I feel we'll play or rather should play a large role in being able to take advantage of the environments we're in and using them to our benefit. Whether that be a buff to the group, a debuff to a negative environmental effect, resists if those come into play, or even forming something like a natural barrier as a defensive boost to absorb/mitigate damage or block ranged attacks just to throw out a few ideas. I think there's a lot of opportunities and potential in having us attuned more with particular environments, though I also don't want to encroach on the natural lore and idea behinds Druids too much.
I fear that summoners are in a bit of a hard place in Pantheon. We know that Pantheon's combat will be slower paced and more tactical than most games. We also know that auto-attacks will be handled for us so that we can focus on the ultimate goal of combat - using the correct ability at the correct time. Spamming abilities on cooldown and estabilishing complex rotations is being actively avoided in the development process. While I feel that these are excellet design decisions, I fear that they will lead to usless summoned items. Allow me to explain.
Armor
Summoning armor sounds like a great nice that a summoner could hope to fill at first glance but quickly falls apart. For a summoned earring, belt, or breastplate to even be equipped by another player the item would need to be better than what the player already had equipped. This is a huge problem. If the summoned item is better than what is widely avalible then it will be needed by every player hoping to partake in the hardest content until the summoned item is finally overtaken by power creep. If the summoned item isn't better than what is widely avalible then it will only be usefull until players reach a state in the game where they have access to better equipment. This could be partially rectified by ensuring that summoned armor was always a sidegrade or offered some unique combination of stats and/or abilities, but one mans sidegrade is always another man's upgrade.
Weapons
Summoned weapons are a very interesting idea but fall flat for many of the same reasons summoned armor does. One way other games have used to counter these problems is to let the summoned weapon be very powerful, but have a set number of attacks that it can be used for before having the weapon unsummon itself. While this is an excellent idea for other games, the very nature of Pantheon's combat system would see such a weapon be nothing more than a temporary DPS buff - something much more at home in the spellbook of a wizard, shaman, or enchanter.
Ammo
Summoning ammunition is an area that the summoner could easily excell in, but the real question becomes what use does the ammo have? Summoned throwing weapons were pretty great in EQ because most classes could use them and because ranged weapons in EQ were more utility equipment than they were anything else. And even in EQ the ranged slot could usually be filled by something with sats. Will Pantheon treat ranged weapons the same way? How many classes will use bows often enough to ask for summoned arrows? Will throwing daggers with stats (which are never used) be filling a thrown slot in the inventory that summoners would otherwise be eager to fill? All good questions for which the answers would determine how viable summoning ammo would be.
Utility
Summoning utility items is something else the summoner can excell at, but the question is once again how needed are the items? Summoning temporary bags with 100% weight reduction was amazing in EQ, but many players shied away from them due to the ease with which valuable loot could be lost. Summoning special quivers and bags for rangers and monks would have it's merrits (especially if the quiver was filled with special arrows) but this would serve to make the summoner something of a pocket class for these other classes, and while summoners would want their items to be wanted and marketable, they wouldn't want to be another class's pet.
Summoning food, water, lights, and other usefull but often carried items also falls into this category. While some of these may be nice to have as an option, expirence shows that they are only asked for if a better alternative is not immediately avalible. Not so much a problem, but somewhat lacking in the "wow" factor.
Trinkets (clickies)
This is the real meat of what most people think about when they think "summoner item". And this category is certainly the strongest. Everything from Binding and Recall Stones to Mod Rods is contained herein. The problems here are two-fold: first, that buffs and damage effects should absolutely be avoided and second, variety. Filling a summoner's clickies with buffs/damage effects, while perhaps fun at first, would quickly become stale and in the case of the latter would serve to undermine the core principles that Pantheon's combat is being designed upon. Variety of effects is a very large problem: to be usefull the item's effect needs to be unique, desireable, and somewhat practical. Comming up with several items that can fit this bill is very time consuming.
Going off those categories?
Substance: The lock cookies from WoW come to mind, just a quick self heal with limited numbers
Tools: Food/Drink before raids, maybe summoning up axes and saws if they wanna make a horde type game mechanic
Baracades: If a horde mechanic is introduced, summoning walls would be invaluable! From earch jutting from the groud, to air violently slinging across an area, there are many ways to make this awesome
Weaponry: Possibly only for pets, summoning weapons for other players could get annoying, unless the weapon only changed the type of damage and not the damage they do...hmm..
Creatures: Multiple types of summoners maybe? Dragon tamers..Wolves..Undead..Ogres..Angels..Demons..or just building your own like a spore type thing going on would all be awesome i think?
I think it would be a cool challenge to have a class that did nothing but summon (i.e. no direct dmg spells). It was identified as the clerics ultimate ability being a skill that summons a barrier that blocks enemy movement and someone mentioned summoning cages or chains to restrain enemies... I think that would be a very unique spin on the summoner. Of course they would also be able to "summon" elementals or monsters and "clickies" too. Maybe have some of those walls be made of fire so you could summon a cage for an enemy and then a wall of fire with a fire elemental hanging out in the cage with them *shrug*. Would make the summoner a heavy CC class and be desired by groups for more than just their clickies since we already know that no caster will be able to compete with the wizards raw DPS...
I like the idea, that a summoner has the ability to empower himself as well as the group by preparing them before a fight. This can happen by summoning Clickies and situation dependend items (resist items or items for a specific environment).
Some examples for such "preparation items":
Stone of confusion
Lore and one time clicky: Fast cast, short duration and short range mez to enable everybody in the team to control a mob hitting them.
Stone of absorption
Lore and one time clicky (maybe no drop, so only the mage can have it): Cast an absorp shield on a target or on yourself. Maybe also only absorbing some type of dmg (fire, ice, physical) to make it more situational.
Ok, i have less ideas then i thought ;) Making items lore and one time clickies makes the items not too powerful and good for preparation, but also require good management in the group.
What I thought was awesome about summoner classes in other games is their ability to summon pet toys and armor, not just for their pets, but others. If a summoner of sorts is specifically a conjuring specialist, I would love to see more varities elemental pets for different situations depending on the environment.
Maybe im just being picky or I just like aesthetic types of things/visuals..but it would be sick to see armor on pets while still not hiding what they are. Maybe even something that would compliment the look.
I like the idea of placement being big for summoners
I don't think infringing on CC would be a bad thing. Enchanter is the only purely CC class as far as i know, everyone else seems like they will have the occasional CC thrown in, why not summoners too? In fact, someone who summons things (possibly large numbers of them) probably ought to be comfortable with crowds.
Spaczer said:Weaponry: Possibly only for pets, summoning weapons for other players could get annoying, unless the weapon only changed the type of damage and not the damage they do...hmm..
Creatures: Multiple types of summoners maybe? Dragon tamers..Wolves..Undead..Ogres..Angels..Demons..or just building your own like a spore type thing going on would all be awesome i think?
I dislike weaponry for players. At most let summoners take the enchanters job and enchant weapons with a needed element. The warrior took time to get his sword; let him use the dang thing.
I Disagree with multiple types of summons, after all other classes gotta summon unique stuff too even if it's just extra theatrics for a regular spell (like an angel above a corpse that is about to be rezzed).
I'd say make it just elementals, and maybe the occassional fun thing like a swarm of lightning bees, and allow for lots of customization from there. But not too much customization, spore was fun and all, but moderating the freedom to make a certain...organ... would take a much bigger team than pantheon will likely have.
First of all I hope they'll summon monsters. I really liked the Magician in Everquest, and thought the progressively stronger and bigger Elementals they summoned to be absolutely awesome. Each type of elemental having some sort of identity as well.
For Summoners I'm not so sure that Elementals will fit thematically. Frankly, I'm not sure what element/damage type that would make sense to associate with the class to begin with. Maybe Arcane? In which case, I think pets similar to the design of Enchanters in EQOA. Things like animated armour, weapons and such.
Other than pets? I'm not so sure. I imagine manipulation of the environment could be a thing. Such as being able to create a temporary wall to block mobs from getting to you and similar. Being able to summon food/drinks for quicker resting periods could also be a thing.
Some really cool and interesting suggestions in this thread, to be honest.
As a long time mage in everquest, and always a class that can summon in all the less fun games since, I am hoping for more intelligent specialized summons almost exactly like everquest, except able to equip permanent items managed by the mage, both summoned and picked off dead mobs. I am fully ok with having to collect multiple sets of items to accomplish this.
I wonder if there will be summoned weapons that are launched at enemies? Like materilize a lance out of magic and have it launched at an enemy, Or spikes pops from the ground. A giant axe that slashes enemies (within range) from thin air. Maybe even a I mean weapons dont have to be wielded right? As for Barricades, Walls would be nice. idk just throwing things out.
I would like to see something like wards a summoner can place somewhere, preferrably in a dungeon. When a mob comes near the ward, the summoner or the whole group will be notified, and maybe they can see the silouette of the mob throug the walls for 5 seconds or so. This way, the summoner will be able to keep track of respawns or roamers, and do some part in ensuring the safety of the group or the raid. The ward should be invisible to NPCs (and maybe some can see them, to make it more interesting).
Also i always wondered why the spells in EQ1 like shock of blades were magic based. Lore wise, they summon blades and throw them at the enemy, so I would have expected physical damage.
Matrulak said:I would like to see something like wards a summoner can place somewhere, preferrably in a dungeon. When a mob comes near the ward, the summoner or the whole group will be notified, and maybe they can see the silouette of the mob throug the walls for 5 seconds or so. This way, the summoner will be able to keep track of respawns or roamers, and do some part in ensuring the safety of the group or the raid. The ward should be invisible to NPCs (and maybe some can see them, to make it more interesting).
Interesting thought. This brings up one thing I almost forgot: the summoned eyes, which made magicians nice for scouting ahead. Definitely something I'd like to see in Pantheon again!
Kurgon999 said: Demons. All the utility stuff too, but I would love the pets to be demons rather than elementals. Just my 2¢
Divinity 2 has the ability to summon a little imp/demon type monster. The really cool part is that if your summoning ability is high enough you will instead summon a huge demon. It would also take on the characteristics of the enviroment it was summoned (ie Fire, Water, Holy, etc)
To me that's where I would like to see summoning go. Don't purely base it off simply one stat or spell; why not multiple? That would give each summoner a creature based off their unique build. A summoner with high STR would summon a giant beast that likes to punch. High CON would summon something like a turtle or scaly lizard.