This is obviously my personal opinion and I don't mean it to be rude or to label anyone however I think it would be an interesting topic to discuss. I know it's not as simple as what I state below, though I think it's a good base to start a discussion from.
So with that said I would like to state that I feel though there are for the most part two types of gamers on these forums in regards to what they want from Pantheon. They are the raiders and the adventures.
Raiders:
I believe these individuals ultimately want a hard game for raiding. They like to work together to down some big raid targets. Some do it for loot and others most likely do it for the competitive nature of hard core raiding. They are competitive and I believe they like to be able to say they did it first or did it better. They usually pick their company by choosing like minded people, however not always people they enjoy playing with(from my personal observation).
If I had to guess why, I would say it's how these individuals get their sense of accomplishment, self worth, and feeling that they belong or are needed. Everyone I know whats those things in life and there isn't anything wrong with that.
Raiders also seem to me to be the type of people to rush to the end of a game without stopping to smell the flowers so to speak. Reason is they want to start raiding which is what they like to do most. They want to min/max their character and only play with the best of the best in order to advance through content as fast as possible by almost any means possible.
Adventures:
I believe this group is looking for that old school D&D night feeling with friends, food, and maybe drinking. The night is mostly about socializing and hanging out with good company crawling a dungeon or exploring a new unexplored location.
Their main objective isn't to find the biggest target they can find and kill it. Their objective is most likely to explore a new world just out of curiosity alone. They usually pick their company by how well they get along or by how much they have in common to talk about. I would say usually they don't care if the company was the best or worst player of their class. Just as long as they have someone nice to share the adventure with.
These people generally play through the content a little slower and may or may not raid at some point in the future. They like the socializing aspect of the game more than the competition.
I personally find myself more in the adventure group due to the fact that I personally don't like competing in a lot of things. I feel as though the competitive human nature brings out the worst in people. From my experience gaming in any almost any kind of competitive nature usually ends up with one person or group not liking another person or group for no other reason than they are on different sides of a match/competition.
It seems to happen in everything from business, sports, gaming, and probably even religion. So I try to avoid it where possible. Especially in my gaming habits as I like those to be more about socializing and relaxation as opposed to high stress or second job feeling.
I believe there is probably room in the market for a game that is nothing besides raiding. There would be no reason for leveling or any content other than raid targets. People would create a character based on the looks they choose and perhaps there would be skills to assign and then off they go. Maybe a new raid target could be released once a month after the initial content was gone through. This would significantly reduce the amount of effort required to create a game that supports only raiding, as I believe a lore rich land filled with mystery and danger for the common explorer is a much more involved process.
What do you guys think? If you made it this far haha :)
You just described each and every PvE mmorpg ever... Said duality is evident in all themeparks, hardly a uniqueness far as Pantheon may be concerned. Balances shift according to title of course, but the groups comprising it constitute the two sides of the PvE coin, anyway you look at it. If we had to separate the Pantheon fanbase into two diffferent categories? They would be:
- I want EQ, 'The Extended Edition' category. Period. ONLY eq, nothing else.
- I want a good, deep, challenging/oldschool game category. May or may not have played, or liked, EQ1.
(in my opinion there's a third, albeit a minority.. it is comprised from people "thinking" they want it harder [even though they weren't there back then, too young, so they don't have the experience of what they ask for, ie they are bound for a 'surprise'] and from MMO hopers, just after the next 'raiding' game. Some you can already see here [hints ranging from subtle to glaringly obvious], others you can pick from the crowd in any mmorpg forum discussing Pantheon)
The two may look alike, but they are anything but.. time will tell on how well the Pantheon team manages to satisfy them both. Because i fear that to some extent at least, it needs to :)
*apologies for the multiple edits, i hate this @*&#^%^#& phone, lol
@Niien
I'd fall more in your adventurer category; however, I would say I'm very competitive still. I wouldn't restrict someone from grouping unless they're an *ss (ninja looter, kill stealer, etc. etc.), but, I'm competitive aganist others in the fact that I want to be the best player that I can be.
I still think the category of "raider" has developed due to terrible MMORPG design rather than a specific category of people. If Pantheon made the journey from 1-50 relevant enough, it would slow down some of the end-game mentality. You would still have those that blow through content regardless, but, they would be more in the minority versus everyone rushing/competing to endgame due to it being the only viable content. The problem is, most people that I've seen arguing only from the viewpoints of raiding or endgame haven't experienced an MMORPG that has delivered any relevant content but endgame content.
And @Aenra - I haven't seen one person argue they want EQ reskinned here, but, to build on the foundation that EQ created - your category #2 - a good, deep, challenging/old school MMORPG is what those in your category #1 want. Re-read the Pantheon difference, no one has argued aganist most of those systems outside of maybe the progeny system, but, are willing to withhold judgement until more is released.
I like to raid 3 - 4 times a week and group up, craft and quest on the other days. I think that is a nice happy medium. It also fits in nicely with real life since you can't always be at your computer when you are needed. Having said that I'm feeling more inclined to be a hardcore player when Pantheon releases. Obviously I don't know for sure at the moment because I've never tried the game but everything I have read is pulling me in that direction so hey I might end up raiding more than that.
@Raidan what makes you assume i haven't read what is publicly available? :)
And what makes you, more to the point, believe there can only be ONE direction for a game based on EQ1? Last but not least, and i have touched on this prior, theory is one thing. How it is formulated is quite another. We have yet (naturally of course, am not making insinuations) to see the latter.
And with the above factored in, what is it that makes you think you, Raidan, know exactly what is on everyone's mind? An agreement over a theoretical point could well mean two different things for two different people. Or eschewing even that, what Pantheon's outcome will be? Bit early, wouldn't you say? :)
I stand by what i said. You're of course more than welcome to disagree with me. Obviously ^^
Edit: Because i can see this derailing, i will put it differently and leave it at that. The 'tenets' are there and generalised as they are (an overall, or a perilepsis of the game elements if you will) they give a certain impression, allow for certain expectations. From those that read them. Said expectations can equally be had from those that want a newer EQ, from that those that want just old school, from those that simply belong in my "third category". I at least find this evident. I read your (plural) posts, i read others' posts in external forums. What cohesion there is, it exists on said general, basic principles. It is their being translated into concrete ones and twos that will be the deciding factor for most. We here are the few. In that light, re-read my post above.
Raidan said:
I still think the category of "raider" has developed due to terrible MMORPG design rather than a specific category of people. If Pantheon made the journey from 1-50 relevant enough, it would slow down some of the end-game mentality. You would still have those that blow through content regardless, but, they would be more in the minority versus everyone rushing/competing to endgame due to it being the only viable content.
I was going to post something eerily similiar to this.
Larirawiel said:I am both. I like raids, questing, adventuring, exploring etc. So i hope pantheon will have this things ready at launch. :)
Greetings
Same here. I wish we'd stop with this talk about being one or the other. It's not a dichotomy, it's a spectrum, and the overwhelming majority fall somewhere in the middle.
I like to level quickly, but that doesn't mean I am not interested in seeing everything the game has to offer. As well as a competitive raider, I am a completionist. That doesn't mean I want to ruin anyone elses' fun. To each their own, is my philosophy.
I still think the category of "raider" has developed due to terrible MMORPG design rather than a specific category of people. If Pantheon made the journey from 1-50 relevant enough, it would slow down some of the end-game mentality. You would still have those that blow through content regardless, but, they would be more in the minority versus everyone rushing/competing to endgame due to it being the only viable content.
I was going to post something eerily similiar to this.
I think you’ll end up with both groups, just because it’s the nature of the beast.
There will be people that view the game as a race: it’s something to beat, there’s a need to be the first to kill mob “X”, there’s the race to have the best lewt, the race to be the first to the level cap, the first to craft the top player-crafted “stuff in demand” etc …
Then there are the folks that play the game and want to work faction, want to craft, want to socialize, or want to unwind after a rough day at school or work. They are the folks that aren’t racing to the end-game content. They take their time getting to where they are going. These are the folks poking their noses in every corner to find quests and hidden levers. They might get to end-game raiding by the time the next expansion pack come out, or they might not. And that’s perfectly ok with them.
My own opinion is that the pot is split pretty much down the middle, or perhaps it is leaning in favor of the end-game racers a bit in most games these days. I think it leans this way because early-and mid-game content, frankly, sucks in most MMOs these days. There really aren’t many challenging encounters early in most games, content is mindlessly repetitive, and leveling is so damn fast that, in all seriousness, you’ll out-level your gear and skills the next day you play. I also think the loot-piñata system adds to this. Because new, more powerful loot falls off almost every mob you kill, you are supported in your power-leveling toward end-game content. In short, I think poor game design actually supports the end-game rush, and it has led to a very different gaming environment for most MMOs today.
TLDR: You’ll have tortoises and hares in every game. I think game designs today support and reward the hares more. I think that when Pantheon opens up, there will be lots and lots of folks running to whatever the “end-game” is. I think there will also be some that are investigating every nook and cranny for the undiscovered quests.
Yeah, but here's the thing. "Raiding" already exists in every game. If you want skillfull large-group play where success results in phat lewtz and epeen waiving, go try a hard-mode raid in WoW/Everyothergameonthemarket. What's actually missing from the market is a game that focuses on the journey and forming new social bonds (not just reinforcing existing ones).
EQ had the luxury of not knowing what an elder-game was. "Raids" weren't an end. In fact, we only had Naggy, Vox, and Plane of Sky which had super long timers. Assuming you participated in all raids, you did 3 every two weeks at most. Implicit pvp meant you usually "raided" even less than that. There were no "raiders" like we understand them today. What did we do with all that time at max level not raiding with no AAs to grind?
Kunark brought 8 more raid targets, but there were many guilds per server so it was still pretty rare to "focus on nothing but raiding". Only after Velious brought another like 12 was it viable to raid multiple times per week (even daily if you were in a top guild), and the rest is history. Raiders and raiding guilds were a symptom of the design, not the goal.
Frankly, and this is where I have high hopes for Pantheon, I don't want a game that "starts" at max level. As others have stated, you can already get fast levelling, progression raiding, gear treadmilling in every genre on every platform. Lets not spend precious dev time creating vertical content for 10% of the player base. Raids are worthwhile if they have meaning to the game. Epic final battles of epic quests, global or zonewide threats whose very presence changes the zone. If it's just that zone you go to at max level where you redo the same content every time it's up/off lockout, I can already get that in 100 other games.
itvar said:..... it's a spectrum, and the overwhelming majority fall somewhere in the middle. ........
Well put Itvar. I also would like to add that I move around that spectrum depending on the game and who I am playing it with.
My small group is fiddling around with Black Desert as a time filler. I am thinking it is a combination of game design (sandboxy lots of systems/alternate paths for your character), lack of end game content that is of interest to us and the fact that we are not playing it seriously that none of us rushing to level 50.
Apologies to my crafter friends as I didn't make a specific category for crafting. I guess without saying it in writing people wouldn't have assumed that I included that in the adventure category haha.
I personally only like to craft when there is an actual benefit. What I mean by that is from my experience with most newer games there was almost zero reason to craft anything other than consumables. Crafted gear usually had pain in the butt requirements and usually wasn't as good as a dropped item. Especially after a new expansion.
I think slower leveling and less gear helps make those crafting professions more worth while. When you might wear a pair of chain pants for 15 levels, it's worth collecting the resources to create them. When you can out level that gear in a couple hours it's a worthless time sink in my opinion.
Marilee said:Raidan said:
I still think the category of "raider" has developed due to terrible MMORPG design rather than a specific category of people. If Pantheon made the journey from 1-50 relevant enough, it would slow down some of the end-game mentality. You would still have those that blow through content regardless, but, they would be more in the minority versus everyone rushing/competing to endgame due to it being the only viable content.
I was going to post something eerily similiar to this.
Agreed. I believe vanilla EQ wasn't made for raiding, it was made for adventuring. However once people started maxing out levels, the vision was lost in my opinion and it turned into raid after raid until the game was dominated by raid content and no group content.
I like a good raid and some shiney loot just as much as the rest, however that's not personally why I like to play the games. I made the post because I think there might be interest in both by many, though the hardcore interest in raiding was never the majority and still isn't today.
So designing a game to be highly focused on raiding doesn't seem like a good idea to me personally. Especially if that is the crowd that is going to rush through the content as fast as possible, complain about no content, and then leave the game.
I keep saying it though I believe a very slow leveling speed would help curb the rush to the end if the end wasn't in sight. If it took years to max level and characters were still able to raid at lower levels it would provide more of a balanced game in my opinion.
vladrynne said:Yeah, but here's the thing. "Raiding" already exists in every game. If you want skillfull large-group play where success results in phat lewtz and epeen waiving, go try a hard-mode raid in WoW/Everyothergameonthemarket. What's actually missing from the market is a game that focuses on the journey and forming new social bonds (not just reinforcing existing ones).
This is actually well said.... This is exactly what is missing from modern games.
All the small meaningful stuff that "add" up to great things. Having numerous options that involve friends to complete. Having to use caution as you explore new terrain where if you were to run through recklessly, you could get "snared" by a nasty mob resulting in death. I can't stand the careless nature everyone can display in modern MMOs simply because of the absence of danger. Can go on and on...
I don't understand the point of trying to label people, especially into two groups.
There are plenty of different types of 'MMOers'. Not just raiders and adventurers or even the newly added crafters. I know people who played EQ and were in raiding guilds who spent a lot of their time just hanging out in game. At any time of day you could catch them either raiding, crafting, adventuring, grouping in a full group for a dungeon, grouping in a small group to just pass time on a mountainside to kill some mobs at a slow pace, grouping to just work on languages, etc.
On top of all this, I tend to play with some VERY competitive players. People who take the time out to really get to know all the ins and outs of their class. People who are min/maxers. People who like to clear out dungeons in record time and don't like dieing. But who also would give you the shirt off their back and if you needed help with somehting they'd be glad to help. So I don't know if you have just had a bad run in with 'competitive' players but there are a LOT of players who are 'elite' who are also very nice people. I don't know why you believe competition brings out the worst in people when imo that only represents a small portion of people.
So at the end of the day, the MMO world/scene is a lot bigger than what is being explained here. And I'm glad Pantheon is being developed with raiding only being a small percentage of the end game content. You will always here me talk about this but I hope for a lot of end game content to resemble quests and questlines such as the Griffon questline in VG. Anything that can add longevity to an MMOs end game life cycle without having to be big raids is great in my book