I hope so - FD was one of the greatest spells/skills in EQ, and, the emergent gameplay and pulling tactics that occured as a result. Circlet of Shadows + FD (and later /pet hold AA)
If the Dire Lord follows the same mold as an SK, it will most likely be one of the first classes I try out due to the lack of a Necromancer at launch.
I'm on the fence about this one. I loved the ability in EQ, but really didn't miss it in VG (on my DK). Maybe it was having more solid roles dictate responsibilities. It felt like "tank pulling" didn't need FD since we wanted the aggro and controllers managed any "over pull". But if you were lacking CC, and skipped tank pulling, it really let monks, bards, disciples, and even clerics (with Lull) shine.
I hope they have FD. Otherwise if the Video is any indication you will need a Monk in most groups to do single or none multiple pulls. I like the idea of having more then one pulling class in a game like Pantheon because it does not pigeon hole you to one type of class. FD for the Dire Lord is a good example of this, Vladrynne what you are talking about for Bards and Disciples and Clerics is a form of CC and my guess is even if you have a chanter you will need all of the above in the dungeons that Brad and the crew are making. Paladin is a backup healer/tank and DL could be the Backup Puller/tank. The warrior just tanks and probable has a DPS stance of some sorts. duel wield or something?
vladrynne said:I'm on the fence about this one. I loved the ability in EQ, but really didn't miss it in VG (on my DK). Maybe it was having more solid roles dictate responsibilities. It felt like "tank pulling" didn't need FD since we wanted the aggro and controllers managed any "over pull". But if you were lacking CC, and skipped tank pulling, it really let monks, bards, disciples, and even clerics (with Lull) shine.
I miss Vanguard :(
I loved FD in EQ on my SK. But they where seen as pullers and OT if geared anuff in EQ. But DK in Vanguard could MT and keep agro great. So i am hopeing DL are more like Vanguards DK so they can tank better then eq SK where they needed FD. i think i could give up FD for better tanking.
If Dire Lords are more of a Tank than the Shadow Knights of old, then why not give them a FD ability that can be cast on others (instead of themselves).
I loved having FD as a Shadow Knight. It would be even better if you can cast it on group members like you could in EQ2. Healer or Mage over aggro's just FD them. I saved the Healers and Mages many times doing that.
Krugus said:If Dire Lords are more of a Tank than the Shadow Knights of old, then why not give them a FD ability that can be cast on others (instead of themselves).
I loved having FD as a Shadow Knight. It would be even better if you can cast it on group members like you could in EQ2. Healer or Mage over aggro's just FD them. I saved the Healers and Mages many times doing that.
That's a really interesting idea. In my mind, that would be more of a caster ability though. Like a Necro or maybe even an Enchanter (considering it could kind of be an illusion). Or at least caster's would be better at it. It seems more like a utility/support ability rather than something a tank would specifically need to have. A tank should be focused on holding aggro in the first place :) I think a big part of class intedependency is not having all of the tools to make up for your own mistakes. You should need other certain classes for that. And it should definitely still have some pretty significant restrictions or fail chances so that it's not a get out of jail free card. People will still have to pay attention to their aggro.
That's my opinion anyway. I wouldn't be mad if DLs have it - I just think it makes more sense on a caster since it's not a very trivial feat of magic. I like the concept though.
Kecho said:I hope they have FD. Otherwise if the Video is any indication you will need a Monk in most groups to do single or none multiple pulls. I like the idea of having more then one pulling class in a game like Pantheon because it does not pigeon hole you to one type of class. FD for the Dire Lord is a good example of this, Vladrynne what you are talking about for Bards and Disciples and Clerics is a form of CC and my guess is even if you have a chanter you will need all of the above in the dungeons that Brad and the crew are making. Paladin is a backup healer/tank and DL could be the Backup Puller/tank. The warrior just tanks and probable has a DPS stance of some sorts. duel wield or something?
I'm sure Monks, Enchanter, and possibly ranger could have some single pull ability, and with Enchanter, and so far Rogue having decent CC i don't see a huge problem with much of this, So honestly i don't care if DL gets FD or not, it was nice to have when you had it but im sure if they don't they will still be liked just as much by other means.
xaices said:Can't say having it or not bothers me either way. I am ok without it. More interested in the Invis, Teleport, and Speed fo the typical Dark Knight than an agro drop play dead ability.
Only thing i hope for is that DL's/War's/Pal's dont get an invis, this was a huge thing that made a ton of people roll SK over Pal/War in beginning and than to learn they also did more damage on top of that. So in my book No tank can invis, leave that to the casters. Not sure what you mean by teleport, or speed buff you mean but i can see them not getting any kind of teleport either
EQ1 both Paladins & SK's had invis vs undead. It was Meh at best. All invis was Med at best due to the nature of how invis could POP at anytime. Cast Invis, 5 seconds later it POPs. Cast Invs, 3 minutes later it POPs. It would keep you on your toes thats for sure.....
In EQ2 SK's had an Evac at 44th level. It wasn't class breaking. Sure you could zap your entire group back to the zone if things went bad but then you had to fight all the way back to get your spot if it wasn't taken.... Handy sure. Its not totally a get out of jail free card. Reminds me of the time I evac'd my group out of a tight spot only to die when we all arrived back at the zone in due to getting hit by three difference necro's nasty DOTs. Ah fun times :)
To be quite honest, I would rather have an in combat rez than feign death. Flavor it how ever, but bringing a party member back to life (even in an incorporeal form) in combat IMO would be more beneficial. Could tie in some nether world etheral magic bonus to being rez'd by a Dire Lord for a short duration after being rezerected, either Dire Lord benifit the person being rez'd or both.
I would take phase shift (teleport x meters ahead) and Shadow Step (teleport to target) or maybe even into the shadow (group invis) over FD as well.
Maybe its just me, but FD seems meh to me as a tank, I would trade in FD any day for more saves and battle field control. There just so much more utility you can squeeze out of a new dark magic using tank design than the same old same old.
Can we start having people's profiles tagged with what their main character was, or what they would like it to be in Pantheon? From what I am reading, I feel like most of the people posting here were not a main Shadow Knight. And it is discouraging for someone that did main it for many years, and understands the class intimately to see core abilities possibly in jeopardy because someone that leveled an SK to 17 thinks having FD in Pantheon means we would have to trade tanking or aggro generation?? What does FD have to do with that? SKs could tank, and have amazing aggro in EQ.
This thread is all over the place;
Feign Death - This is a must, we need multiple pullers in the game, pulling takes skill, it is not just pacifying a mob with a spell. FD pulling was a class defining ability for Shadow Knights, and anyone that says it was not, did not play the class to its fullest. We were the only class in classic to receive an upgrade to Feign Death - Deaths Peace, and it really made a difference. There are a few specific abilities that can make this class amazing; Tanking, FD, Fear, overpowering siphons, and even the pet. Without these it just won't feel the same.
I hope the devs listen to people that truly mained classes when discussing core abilities.
Shadowknight said:I hope the devs listen to people that truly mained classes when discussing core abilities.
You do realise this is not a straigtht up remake of EQ, right?
How about anyone and everyone can discuss core abilities. There have been many wonderful games, ideas and abilities across the last few decades that others can bring to the table via a discussion. It's a little narrowminded dismissing those that didn't play EQ out of hand (not to mention Vanguard).
Umbra said:Shadowknight said:I hope the devs listen to people that truly mained classes when discussing core abilities.
You do realise this is not a straigtht up remake of EQ, right?
How about anyone and everyone can discuss core abilities. There have been many wonderful games, ideas and abilities across the last few decades that others can bring to the table via a discussion. It's a little narrowminded dismissing those that didn't play EQ out of hand (not to mention Vanguard).
If you reread what you quoted, you would see that I said "mained classes when discussing core abilities" nowhere did I say a mained Dread Knight, Death Knight, or Shadow Knight did not fall within this sub. I am referring to players that are obviously not mains on said classes; discussing core abilities they do not fully understand. Just as I would not want to misspeak and hurt another classes viability, I would like the same consideration.
This is exactly how SK's in EQ2 lost their self FD (4 second recast, unlimited duration feign) in favor of a flashy new target FD spell (with a 5 minute recast, 1 min feign) crippling the ability to pull and a groups desire to seek them out. On the surface, the idea of a target FD sounds amazing, but the utility would need to be heavily balanced. That balance came with the 5 min recast, and the fact the player only feigned for a limited time before being forced to stand up. In retrospect this ability (Still a really cool, and interesting ability could have been easily added as an AA, and balanced the same way without removing the original self FD spell.
Another example of uninformed players hurting the SK class was taken from pre-alpha forums suggestion in regards to the SK pet for EQ2. Many did not understand how valuable the pet was in EQ1, they looked at it as a simple green pet with low DPS, which on the surface, it was. But if you summoned until getting the max level for that spell range, it was at least twice as strong. This is only one of many ways to make this pet stronger, I go into this more under the pet thread.
Ultimately SOE decided due to player forum request to transform it into a boring DOT with a pet animation for 30 seconds losing all utility, costing infinitely more mana since it is not persistent, and the ability to use it in splitting pulls, speed bumping, mana battery, the list goes on.
If you look at the breakdown in Alpha for EQ2 SKs; you would see that at the start everyone thought SKs were the tank class to be (they were the number 1 tank class chosen)
Bruiser 48,547 (15th)
Paladin 72,095 (10th)
Guardian 73,043 (9th)
Shadowknight 74,475 (8th)
Monk 82,583 (5th)
Berserker 93,854 (2nd)
but the actual number that made it to 60 put them in dead last for tanks.
Bruiser 3,962 (15th)
Shadowknight 4,652 (13th)
Monk 5,539 (11th)
Paladin 6,169 (8th)
Berserker 6,715 (6th)
Guardian 6,808 (5th)
This is in part due to limited roles, and utility, and of course many other things that I will not go into. The point is; less information and understanding of a class leads to uninformed requests which can hurt or destroy a class, especially when discussing core abilities. What I would like to see is each forum poster choose a class, or even "all classes" and have it displayed under their avatar name, this would signify their interest, and possibly knowledge of said class. This would give a at a glance barometer for the devs to go by, and less rage inducing for others puzzled by odd requests for their main class.
What kind if response do you expect when you make comments like:
[Blockquote]Shadowknight said:
Can we start having people's profiles tagged with what their main character was, or what they would like it to be in Pantheon? From what I am reading, I feel like most of the people posting here were not a main Shadow Knight. And it is discouraging for someone that did main it for many years, and understands the class intimately to see core abilities possibly in jeopardy because someone that leveled an SK to 17 thinks having FD in Pantheon means we would have to trade tanking or aggro generation?? What does FD have to do with that? SKs could tank, and have amazing aggro in EQ.
VR is not about to limit posting opinions on these forums to only self-declared class experts.
Everyone gets to state their opinion. VR decides if it's a good opinion or not.
VR already knows what they want Dire Lords to be and they will do it their way, then ask for suggestions in testing.
[Blockquote]Shadowknight said:
Can we start having people's profiles tagged with what their main character was, or what they would like it to be in Pantheon? From what I am reading, I feel like most of the people posting here were not a main Shadow Knight. And it is discouraging for someone that did main it for many years, and understands the class intimately to see core abilities possibly in jeopardy because someone that leveled an SK to 17 thinks having FD in Pantheon means we would have to trade tanking or aggro generation?? What does FD have to do with that? SKs could tank, and have amazing aggro in EQ.
I'm glad you can bring years of experience to these boards; many of us have that as well. Welcome! Posts may appear to be a bit light due to lack of news, especially about this class, but the veterans are lurking around. And not all of the veterans were (EQ1) shadow knight mains; many stem from Vanguard and other "McQuaidian" titles as well.
I would take a step back and evaluate what you said, friend. Visionary Realms has been very welcoming of all their supporters, the new ones and the ones who donated over three years ago. This community isn't looking to be segregated by individuals calling others, for the lack of a better term, illegitimate.
Let's get this topic back on track. :)
I really want FD in the game, that was the best ability I had as an SK in EQ1, each time i got a better FD it made the game that much more fun, from pulling and corpse runs to getting in and out of places very few are able, it really made the game a blast. And on the tank side when someone pulled a train our way if we didnt have a wiz or druid then it was FD and start dragging once the pathing was done, overall it was what made sk's the best class for me and really hope Pantheon has it for DL's.
Of course anyone would rather have the ability than not. Who wouldnt want the extra utility FD brings. With that being said, I know this sounds contradicting, but I could live with out it as well. we dont really know how the grouping mechanics are gonna plan out, but groups generally have 1 tank. If youre the FD puller and tank, that could lead to some issues. Also if youre FD puller and DPS, then why would a group choose you over a monk. I don't see FD as a class defining mechanic, but it is nice to have to get out of the oh **** moments.
I am okay if Direlord doens't have FD, but just as long as other classes can split pull. We can't be dependent on one class to split pull without CC. This would be bad for groupding mechanics because then puts monks in big demand. I look at it like CC, Best CC class in EQ was Chanter. You needed to have a Chanter for Big Pulls on major raids, but you could get by with a couple of bards and some roots. It made it more difficult, but you could get by. Chanter did it best though. I would say the same thing for FD and pulling. Monk is the best, but you have to have other classes that can do those roles. Maybe do the role in a different manner, but fill that role.