I am under the opinion that most of the best items that can be acquired in an MMO should not be tradeable once looted.
Why? Because it gives more meaning to an item than just its stats, name, and look. It makes your character more organic. The gear you wear should tell a story. It should reflect your or your guild's accomplishments.
Without this feature, anyone with deep pockets can drop a few hundred bucks down and instantly deck out their character with raid gear that guilds are pawning off at the auction house, which in a way, supports a pay to win kind of philosophy, which is something I want to stay away from as much as possible.
Your real world finances should not in any way be able to reflect the power of your character in a fantasy game world. Instead what you do in the fantasy game world should dictate the power and success of your character.
I know NODROP items doesn't solve the issue of account selling, but that's kind of a different topic.
Does this community agree with me? Or not? If not, I'd love to hear counter-arguments.
I'd prefer EQ2's Heirloom for most top-end equipment in the game. The only exceptions being the "class defining" things, like epic weapons and class-specific armor sets. Everything else I think should, at the very least, be restricted to your account and be able to be passed to alts through a shared bank.
The justification I have for this is that it solves the problem of purchasing top-end gear by throwing down RL money on Chinese plat or whatever else, but it also doesn't lead to valuable items rotting on corpses quite as often. If I invested the effort to kill a mob I think it makes sense that, if everyone else passes, I should be able to roll on something for an alt and be able to easily pass it on to them.
One thing to note in this system, though, is that some things can no longer happen for twinks. Examples being:
You know, the ridiculous overpowered items with +100 HP and 36% haste that are equippable at level 1. Then again, I always thought the extent of EQ's twinking went way too far.
I feel like there was already a post about this but as I am too lazy to look I will just put in a quick 2cp.
Fix for twinking: Required level on items
Problems with no drop gear: It seems that many people do not want a game in which every time there is a new expansion/update everything that you have previously acquired is invalid within the first few steps. Having Items be tradable allows the less hardcore/non-top guilds keep up a little bit so that gear is not required to be reset. Also if you are a tank or a healer in your raid force perhaps the main one and an item drops that is an upgrade for you then you can take it and give your hand-me-down to the next in line. Finally, I do not think that your argument should be made based on the existence of RMT. I think that you should encourage VR to come out with what they feel is the best thing they can develop, and then worry about people breaking the rules.
I think raid targets should have NO DROP attached to them.
Everything else, nah.
In EQ twinking didn't bother me because all of my gear was NO DROP from raiding.
I believe VR's stance on NO DROP is that the majority of things will be freely tradeable, but I would figure end-game raids will for the most part be NO DROP and this I am OK with.
EDIT: I would absolutely love if typically NO DROP items were transferable to different characters on the same account ... but not to players on other accounts. Wishful thinking, I figure.
I see no reason for anything to be nodrop outside of some item from a major quest or a place that requires an attunement of sorts to access. Even if an attunement is required, the item could still be tradeable (but not equippable) and once a player is attuned, could also equip the item.
I fully beleieve most gear should be Non tradeable once attuined. I don't think people should be able to buy rare gear that takes some guilds weeks to farm. If no one in araid needs it zone in an Alt and equip theat but once attuined it should stay with that person forever.
The primary function, as I see it, of NoDrop is several fold.
1) Minimize long-term monopolization of content. Once a guild has outfitted its members with the drops from some particular content it removes the need for that guild to continually return to that content.
2) Minimizes the influence on the in-game economy. Those guilds that can 'farm' content are less likely too once #1 is fulfilled because the drops cannot then be sold on the market and the longer such a guild monopolizes the content they monopolize the market to the detriment of everyone else.
3) Minimizes the effect on RMT. You cannot sell the items for real-life money through 3rd party websites and by the same token there isn't the temptation to buy in-game currency with real-life money to obtain such items.
NoDrop protects the health of the game and it is healthy games that continue to thrive year after year.
NODROP helps protect the usefulness of crafting. Who is going to buy high level crafted items if the better raid drops or legendary weapon quest is farmed by your maxed out gear alts and guild mates and just given to your other characters? Helps protect content from trivialization too if the difficulty of the content to get gear can be bypassed by maxed out players. Getting a Stygian, an amazing NODROP 2handed edged weapon in Anarchy Online, wouldn't have been as fulfilling if I could have just bought it from someone else who ran the Inner Sactum; a high level difficult dungeon that required attunememt.
Personally I'm a fan of Nodrop & Bind on pickup. When I see someone walking around in a shiny set of armour with a fantastic looking weapon, I want to know they've worked hard to get that weapon, that they've put time and effort into getting what they've got. When games don't have these system I quickly lose interest in what gear people are using because you never know how they got it be it pass me downs or 3rd party transactions and then it means very little.
Don't get me wrong there should be plenty of gear that can be used to help lower levels or players just coming through to get them on par with the content, but I'd prefer if the top end items where ND / BOP, including top end dungeon boss items and raid drops. When I see someone walking around with a fiery dragon sword, I want to know they slayed the dragon with their companions to earn said weapon.
This topic is always a great one. I'll say simply that I'm a big fan of NO DROP in general for many of the previously posted reasons. It's a lot easier to protect a game's economy when you limit trade, period. On a side note, I hated attuned items (ones that are tradeable until bound to your character). I always struggled with "should I sell it or equip it?" It gave me the itch just thinking about outgrowing it when I could have made some plat.
As a fan of free market trade and the "invisible hand" that ultimately influences any economy when given the chance, it would be interesting to see a fully "droppable" economy.
"Wait, Talv, if everything is tradeable, large consortiums of players will control the entire marketplace through high-end farming, crafting, raiding, and brokering." Mhmm, and how exciting that would be! We all aspire to be strong, wealthy, and influential in the game, so why try to diminish the appeal? If you're part of the elite, you're living large. If you're not, you're dreaming of getting there. Both are incredibly exciting.
If you really think about it, there's nothing more social than bartering, haggling, and begging for things you need to progress. Best friends and dire enemies are made by such interactions.
I am kind of in the middle on this one.
I loved that I could twink my lev 1 monk with a Cloak of Flames. I got my CoF with DKP points. I couldn't afford to just buy it with plat.
However. I did like that Cleric Hate gear (all class armor) was no drop because it meant you had to go there to get it. no way to buy it.
I think a mix like that is good. I will have plenty of Alts that will need gear.
I will start as a cleric, but will also make Enchanter, Wizard, Druid, and maybe a ranger. ( Necro- if one should become available )
To me Twinking a low lev is WAY better than exps bonus.
@Linkamus
I understand your points and I view the arguments of pro-no drop as penalizing the few (gold sellers/buyers) at the expense of the many who would legitimately buy/sell items from in game means. If people are buying items through external means, it absolutely is pay to win, but, I'd argue if it was through in game means, it is not. And, a rare item remains rare no matter how it enters the world, so, the prestige of an item isn't diminished due to trade, but, the commonality of the drop. I want Pantheon to be as much of a Sandbox style game as possible, and, I'm aganist removing alternative means as long as they are properly managed. I'm in 100% agreement that player trade can hurt the economy through RMT, and buyers/sellers should be swiftly met with the ban hammer, but that fear shouldn't be the reason why trade is removed or severely restricted. I could expand my thoughts a lot further on how in-game trade isn't pay to win if you'd like.
Linkamus said:I am under the opinion that most of the best items that can be acquired in an MMO should not be tradeable once looted.
Why? Because it gives more meaning to an item than just its stats, name, and look. It makes your character more organic. The gear you wear should tell a story. It should reflect your or your guild's accomplishments.
Without this feature, anyone with deep pockets can drop a few hundred bucks down and instantly deck out their character with raid gear that guilds are pawning off at the auction house, which in a way, supports a pay to win kind of philosophy, which is something I want to stay away from as much as possible.
Your real world finances should not in any way be able to reflect the power of your character in a fantasy game world. Instead what you do in the fantasy game world should dictate the power and success of your character.
I know NODROP items doesn't solve the issue of account selling, but that's kind of a different topic.
Does this community agree with me? Or not? If not, I'd love to hear counter-arguments.
A few things...
NO DROP items were typically a rarer item, or a lore driven item. Meant & intended not to upset story lines or cross certain bounderies. And there will most likely be some form of item decay in Pantheon. So, perhaps hoarding things in your bank for year won't do you any good. A people driven economy based on a newer mantra of.. use it and abuse it, then repair it & sell when you can..
Most items in Pantheon will indeed be tradeable. Are you more or less wondering the frequency of no-drop items..?
In Pantheon, I see no-drop items relating back mostly to quests. But, as far as NO DROP armor/weapon drops, I'd think NO DROP in Pantheon would mean you found a rarer piece of equipment.
Linkamus said:I am under the opinion that most of the best items that can be acquired in an MMO should not be tradeable once looted.
Why? Because it gives more meaning to an item than just its stats, name, and look. It makes your character more organic. The gear you wear should tell a story. It should reflect your or your guild's accomplishments.
Without this feature, anyone with deep pockets can drop a few hundred bucks down and instantly deck out their character with raid gear that guilds are pawning off at the auction house, which in a way, supports a pay to win kind of philosophy, which is something I want to stay away from as much as possible.
Your real world finances should not in any way be able to reflect the power of your character in a fantasy game world. Instead what you do in the fantasy game world should dictate the power and success of your character.
I know NODROP items doesn't solve the issue of account selling, but that's kind of a different topic.
Does this community agree with me? Or not? If not, I'd love to hear counter-arguments.
It is true that mechanics like NODROP and bind-on-equip and such were invented to curb both mudflation in general and also people being to influence the game with RL money. Now we're not having any cash shops or anyway to directly spend real money to obtain or achieve something in-game -- that's for sure. But yes, there are indirect ways, and people will sell plat on eBay, etc. and it's pretty hard to stop.
That said, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. Making most things no-drop or no-trade or bind-on-equip significantly diminishes a viable player driven economy. And having a strong player driven economy is a big part of Pantheon.
So, most items will be tradable. Certain crafting items, and most certainly quest items will not be tradable. But most items will. We want to see people buying, selling, and trading. We want to see certain rare items become valuable and obtainable. Say you're a Crusader and you get a really rare and valuable drop, but it doesn't help you. We think you should be able to find someone who it would help and trade them for something that you want.
The MUDflation issue I've posted a LOT on. We have plenty of systems to curb and slowdown MUDflation and to keep items interesting, etc. If you want to know more, you should be able to find my posts.
As for some rich guy buying a bunch of plat on eBay and then being able to buy something he really doesn't deserve (because he didn't earn it in-game), there are many ways to track these things, though its a constant battle. If we catch people doing that, we will take action. But it will happen... we will miss some of it. I don't like that, but, again, removing the player driven economy from everybody just to stop these guys I think does more harm than good.
If you disagree (or agree) freel free to post and let me have it :)
-Brad
Aradune said:Linkamus said:I am under the opinion that most of the best items that can be acquired in an MMO should not be tradeable once looted.
Why? Because it gives more meaning to an item than just its stats, name, and look. It makes your character more organic. The gear you wear should tell a story. It should reflect your or your guild's accomplishments.
Without this feature, anyone with deep pockets can drop a few hundred bucks down and instantly deck out their character with raid gear that guilds are pawning off at the auction house, which in a way, supports a pay to win kind of philosophy, which is something I want to stay away from as much as possible.
Your real world finances should not in any way be able to reflect the power of your character in a fantasy game world. Instead what you do in the fantasy game world should dictate the power and success of your character.
I know NODROP items doesn't solve the issue of account selling, but that's kind of a different topic.
Does this community agree with me? Or not? If not, I'd love to hear counter-arguments.
It is true that mechanics like NODROP and bind-on-equip and such were invented to curb both mudflation in general and also people being to influence the game with RL money. Now we're not having any cash shops or anyway to directly spend real money to obtain or achieve something in-game -- that's for sure. But yes, there are indirect ways, and people will sell plat on eBay, etc. and it's pretty hard to stop.
That said, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. Making most things no-drop or no-trade or bind-on-equip significantly diminishes a viable player driven economy. And having a strong player driven economy is a big part of Pantheon.
So, most items will be tradable. Certain crafting items, and most certainly quest items will not be tradable. But most items will. We want to see people buying, selling, and trading. We want to see certain rare items become valuable and obtainable. Say you're a Crusader and you get a really rare and valuable drop, but it doesn't help you. We think you should be able to find someone who it would help and trade them for something that you want.
The MUDflation issue I've posted a LOT on. We have plenty of systems to curb and slowdown MUDflation and to keep items interesting, etc. If you want to know more, you should be able to find my posts.
As for some rich guy buying a bunch of plat on eBay and then being able to buy something he really doesn't deserve (because he didn't earn it in-game), there are many ways to track these things, though its a constant battle. If we catch people doing that, we will take action. But it will happen... we will miss some of it. I don't like that, but, again, removing the player driven economy from everybody just to stop these guys I think does more harm than good.
If you disagree (or agree) freel free to post and let me have it :)
-Brad
I 100 percent agree with this but would hope to see one caveat. Raid items should never be allowed to be sold. it is a team of 24 if someone cant use it bring an ALT in. Quest items drops off named mobs in instances or groups yah trade it if needed but hard earned raid gear the best in the game should be nontradeable.
If I can pick it up from a mob, chest, or crafter, it's tradeable. End of story. Lore, no trade, no drop, bind, etc is all meta-BS invented to deal with poor economy design. We can do better.
Better solutions than bound gear:
The one exception that should definitely be bound (and not subject to horrible mechanics like durability) is epic gear. That weapon/armor you fought tirelessly for, raided, quested, grouped and poured your (and possible other peoples') soul into which is now as much a part of just you as your race and class. It makes sense that you can't just hand it to someone else. Nobody crafted it for you, and you didn't just "pick it up" from some raid boss's treasure horde.
Side note: if you can get an item, so can another hero and it has nothing to do with "earning it". Gear rewards have only ever taken time, RNG, and friends. You didn't earn it either, show me how you killed that boss on your own, you beast, you. No, you just happened to be present when a group that accepted you, warts and all, beat a challenge and RNG favored you. Before you cry "DKP", keep in mind, you can spend 0 DKP and still get the item, you just get it after the DKP spenders (assuming time, RNG, and friends make it appear again).
Chaj said:Finally, I do not think that your argument should be made based on the existence of RMT. I think that you should encourage VR to come out with what they feel is the best thing they can develop, and then worry about people breaking the rules.
This is the kind of thinking that gets developers in trouble. How many times have we seen RMT ruin games because developers put little thought into how their game could be abused? You can't develop in a vaccum and then release a game into the wild with a reactionary game plan. Its a recipe for disaster and the players deserve better.
Clearly, developing an MMO without any concerns of outside forces effecting your game would be ideal, but that isnt reality. RMT is a very real issue. It plagues almost every MMO that has an audience. Developing a game with combating RMT in mind from the onset is a wise strategy. The hard part is balancing this in a way that doesn't disrupt or punish those who play by the rules.
To address the OP's topic, I would absolutely expect epics and the majority of raid-obtained gear to be no-drop.