Menubrea said:Wall said:That's just the way it is. Shaman, Druids sacrifice optimized groupability for being able to yolo solo everything.
Even if taken along in a healer role, Shaman and Druids will, and should, have more downtime associated as compared to a pure healing class, at the same gear level. Sure, once the hybrid is decked they can hold their own. But a decked out Cleric will just be better as a healer, period.
Can't have all the cake, and eat it, too.
First of, where exactly are you getting that information? Druids aren't even in the game yet, and Clerics and Shamans (tagged as healer/support, not hybrid) are still pretty basic and subject to change. Pantheon is not Everquest, nor should we hope it to be exactly like it. A single healer and tank being heavily favoured for groups isn't something we should aim for.
As far as the argument of being able to "solo everything", assuming it ends up being somewhat true, seem like a pointless argument for a group oriented game. Hardly anyone is going to pick up this game and think to themselves: "I'm totally going to pick the best soloer, at the expense of being any worth to any decent group". If I wanted to solo I'd go play either a single player game, or any of the multitude of themepark MMO's out there.
Your viewpoint is heavy on the EQ game play style. I want a game that reminds me of EQ with out being a clone.
I think all healers should have rez. and good heals, but the other part be different. Like VR said the shaman wil be more dps oriented, but they havent explained it all how clerics and druids will have their perks (I'm not elaborating on what the eprks could be i'll leave that to VR and their team). they havent stated anything yet in a concrete form but im sure they will find a balance for it and make you really think on what hlr class you want for yourself. i have a pretty good idea where they are going with the classes to make them all fun and all necessary.
Also id like to add that healers in eq1, eqoa and eq2 were luxuries and had to beg people to join you. Im not saying this is gonna happen here since the game will be more interactive and wont be just heal/sit/heal. But you can't expect groups to be held up because they have a shaman or druid they have never played with and not do anythign till they find a cleric to join because the area they are going to is pretty tough and having no rez would be a real pain especially with the corpse loot system that from what i've seen u lose it all. So then run to city get a second set of gear in bank while spamming for a cleric to come with your group with no promise of staying in said group to heal all the way till they can rez u then dump em? thats no fun or would you have to pay god knows how much for a hlr to do that? basically something that you could have done in 2-3 hours would extend to maybe 6 or 7 depending on when a cleric agrees, pricing and with your probably slow killing because your reserve gear is not as good or lower lvl than you. Not everyone can extend their playng time like that. same with summon corpse in eq1 it was only necros but to be fair if necro has it then summoner as the name says should be able to do it too.
Servirus said:I think all healers should have rez. and good heals, but the other part be different. Like VR said the shaman wil be more dps oriented, but they havent explained it all how clerics and druids will have their perks (I'm not elaborating on what the eprks could be i'll leave that to VR and their team). they havent stated anything yet in a concrete form
They actually have. Check out my class interview with Joppa: https://youtu.be/4vebn1AN6KY
Bazgrim said:Servirus said:I think all healers should have rez. and good heals, but the other part be different. Like VR said the shaman wil be more dps oriented, but they havent explained it all how clerics and druids will have their perks (I'm not elaborating on what the eprks could be i'll leave that to VR and their team). they havent stated anything yet in a concrete form
They actually have. Check out my class interview with Joppa: https://youtu.be/4vebn1AN6KY
i will check it out bazgrim dam you got me in every forum thing ive posted LOL thank you very much for all the info i will check the video out and hopefully we will meet in the game and group when game finally comes out or in ALPHA or BETA :)
Servirus said:Bazgrim said:Servirus said:I think all healers should have rez. and good heals, but the other part be different. Like VR said the shaman wil be more dps oriented, but they havent explained it all how clerics and druids will have their perks (I'm not elaborating on what the eprks could be i'll leave that to VR and their team). they havent stated anything yet in a concrete form
They actually have. Check out my class interview with Joppa: https://youtu.be/4vebn1AN6KY
i will check it out bazgrim dam you got me in every forum thing ive posted LOL thank you very much for all the info i will check the video out and hopefully we will meet in the game and group when game finally comes out or in ALPHA or BETA :)
Lol don't take it personally - I just scan the whole forums for the latest posts and answer what I can :P glad to help! I'd be happy to group up some time :)
I think there is such a thing as over balancing and that allowing certain classes to be "haves" while others are "have nots" in certain areas is very important. Otherwise things are watered down. Rez is an expensive luxury that's amazing to have, it should be rare and valuable, not commonplace.
Keno Monster said:I think there is such a thing as over balancing and that allowing certain classes to be "haves" while others are "have nots" in certain areas is very important. Otherwise things are watered down. Rez is an expensive luxury that's amazing to have, it should be rare and valuable, not commonplace.
The problem is as soon as you have classes competing for the same party/raid slot and one class can do something BIG and the others can't it turns into most groups only want the class that can (assuming equal ability at the primary role).
The whole "make all options viable at the primary role" effort will be pointless if they make all the options significantly unequal at the non primary role stuff...
Zyellinia said:Keno Monster said:I think there is such a thing as over balancing and that allowing certain classes to be "haves" while others are "have nots" in certain areas is very important. Otherwise things are watered down. Rez is an expensive luxury that's amazing to have, it should be rare and valuable, not commonplace.
The problem is as soon as you have classes competing for the same party/raid slot and one class can do something BIG and the others can't it turns into most groups only want the class that can (assuming equal ability at the primary role).
The whole "make all options viable at the primary role" effort will be pointless if they make all the options significantly unequal at the non primary role stuff...
It's okay to have one healer (Shaman) who is the best at exp grouping because of slow, one healer who it the best at questing in general(Druid) because of ports and tracking and their do it all nature, and it's okay to have one healer who is more desirable during a raid situation. It's up to the devs to balance the content and not make it so that raiding is 90% of the game.
In EQ1 I never minded not having a Rez becasue I felt shammies were a jack of all trades but master of none class. We could do a bit of healing, buffing/debuffing, and mellee but didn't excell at any of them. And Rez being on of the most important spells in a clerics arsonal I never expected to have that ability.
So as for the question if Pahteon's shammy is in anyway similar to EQ1 I don't feel we need the rez since we make up for it in other ways. And if they did do it I would not expect for it to be as good as a cleric.
Rungus said:In EQ1 I never minded not having a Rez becasue I felt shammies were a jack of all trades but master of none class. We could do a bit of healing, buffing/debuffing, and mellee but didn't excell at any of them. And Rez being on of the most important spells in a clerics arsonal I never expected to have that ability.
So as for the question if Pahteon's shammy is in anyway similar to EQ1 I don't feel we need the rez since we make up for it in other ways. And if they did do it I would not expect for it to be as good as a cleric.
In my opinion, the SHM in EQ1 was the master of buffs/debuffs indirectly making them vrey effective at soloing with their limitless resource combo of cani/torpor (as effective as the necro soloing if played well). But to address the post (without reading all 7 pages of other posts) I feel that if the Paladin can resurrect (Atone) then there should be other classes able to resurrect to include the Shaman Druid and maybe Necromancer. Each could have their own their own mechanic/flavor like the paladin sacraficing their own health to aid an ally, perhaps the necromancer could temporarily raise an ally as a zombie (like the DK in WoW originally) and the druid could have a super long casttime (ritual) requiring the focus of other party members to participate... the shaman could perhaps have a spirit walk ability that just summons the player's spirt back to their body with a huge physical debuff upon resurrection and can only be used out of combat. Then the cleric could still be unique by having the xp recovery, low to no penalty, combat castable rez. I'm sure all of these suggestions are too late, but just my opinion.
streeg said:The Cleric's Plea of the Devout is a battle rez also right?
Yeah, and the Shaman's battle rez can only be used while Agewalker's Gift is active, so only a short window after dying. The Celric's standard rez also restores some XP.
Even though the Cleric's rezing abilities are better (which it should be), I like the Shaman's ability to corpse drag themselves after dying. I'd rather have that in my group than a better rez. It'll make recovering from wipes in dangerous areas easier.
chobo said:Yeah, and the Shaman's battle rez can only be used while Agewalker's Gift is active, so only a short window after dying. The Celric's standard rez also restores some XP.
Even though the Cleric's rezing abilities are better (which it should be), I like the Shaman's ability to corpse drag themselves after dying. I'd rather have that in my group than a better rez. It'll make recovering from wipes in dangerous areas easier.
Definitely a fascinating concept. Although I wonder if the shaman (and other classes who get it) will give back any exp...seems VERY backwards for me to only have the cleric rezes give exp.
xilith said:Can the Shaman rez themself while in Agewalker's Gift?
I doubt it, a class with no death penalty every x hours could be theoretically more trolly than a monk training using feign death.
Not to mention it ruins the whole point of why VR wants a death penalty...every x hours.
As a dedicated Shammy, I would not be for gaining rez. Much of my respect for other classes came from the fact that they could do things that I could not. Typically Having just the one char in a group with the power of rez always made the battles more exciting, focussed, and at times desperate.
stormzee said:As a dedicated Shammy, I would not be for gaining rez. Much of my respect for other classes came from the fact that they could do things that I could not. Typically Having just the one char in a group with the power of rez always made the battles more exciting, focussed, and at times desperate.
And if groups never pick a Shaman as their sole group healer because you cannot rez, you are OK with that? You're OK with the Cleric being that much more desirable when it comes to groups solely because of 1 spell they have that we do not?
Vandraad said:stormzee said:As a dedicated Shammy, I would not be for gaining rez. Much of my respect for other classes came from the fact that they could do things that I could not. Typically Having just the one char in a group with the power of rez always made the battles more exciting, focussed, and at times desperate.
And if groups never pick a Shaman as their sole group healer because you cannot rez, you are OK with that? You're OK with the Cleric being that much more desirable when it comes to groups solely because of 1 spell they have that we do not?
I found that by concentrating on the the thing I was best suited to, damage mitigated and augmentation, I was generally o.k. for groups, and so can't really say that I have experience of feeling less desirable in a group just because of one spell.
stormzee said:I found that by concentrating on the the thing I was best suited to, damage mitigated and augmentation, I was generally o.k. for groups, and so can't really say that I have experience of feeling less desirable in a group just because of one spell.
In a game with a stinging death penatly many/most players will gravitate toward the healer that can best reduce the harshness of death. With all healing being equal, if only cleric had rez then they would stand above the other two healers almost always.
The more I remember about EQ the less I feel the lack of rez was a problem, but for a bad reason : Every party had a cleric back then, as Druids and Shamans were lackluster in this domain due to Complete Healing. Shamans had a good vibe with torpor, but it came late and was hard to obtain.
I think, however, the corpse run is worse than the XP penalty. I prefer to grind back than run 30min to get back to my party in addition to the debt, having a way to "port" back to your corpse is already a lot of the debt relieved, so... I don't care that much for the XP recovery, in the end.