Amsai said:I saw that to Xil. Good news I say. And looks like some hope for more support role type classes to get them as well from the wording. Because with Cleric and Shaman being confirmed as having rez, the "other" classes implies at least more than 1. Druid is almost definite. But that leaves room for at least 1 more if not more. I would hope support based roled like Enchanter or Bard? Possibly Necro seein how they are sort of masters of death magic?
With Shaman, Cleric and Druid all having rez, that really is all that is needed because every group can have a healing class and be assured they have rez available. I would really hate to see it diluted any further because then you really to take so much risk out of the game.
I think the Shamn, Cleric, and Druid must have equal a rez equal to each other. There are only three races that can play a cleric, so those healers in the Shaman and Druid must equal the Cleric in the Rez. Give them different ways of doing it, fine. But I don't want my Shaman losing out to Clerics to get groups.
Questaar said:I think the Shamn, Cleric, and Druid must have equal a rez equal to each other. There are only three races that can play a cleric, so those healers in the Shaman and Druid must equal the Cleric in the Rez. Give them different ways of doing it, fine. But I don't want my Shaman losing out to Clerics to get groups.
That's just the way it is. Shaman, Druids sacrifice optimized groupability for being able to yolo solo everything.
Even if taken along in a healer role, Shaman and Druids will, and should, have more downtime associated as compared to a pure healing class, at the same gear level. Sure, once the hybrid is decked they can hold their own. But a decked out Cleric will just be better as a healer, period.
Can't have all the cake, and eat it, too.
Wall said:That's just the way it is. Shaman, Druids sacrifice optimized groupability for being able to yolo solo everything.
Even if taken along in a healer role, Shaman and Druids will, and should, have more downtime associated as compared to a pure healing class, at the same gear level. Sure, once the hybrid is decked they can hold their own. But a decked out Cleric will just be better as a healer, period.
Can't have all the cake, and eat it, too.
First of, where exactly are you getting that information? Druids aren't even in the game yet, and Clerics and Shamans (tagged as healer/support, not hybrid) are still pretty basic and subject to change. Pantheon is not Everquest, nor should we hope it to be exactly like it. A single healer and tank being heavily favoured for groups isn't something we should aim for.
As far as the argument of being able to "solo everything", assuming it ends up being somewhat true, seem like a pointless argument for a group oriented game. Hardly anyone is going to pick up this game and think to themselves: "I'm totally going to pick the best soloer, at the expense of being any worth to any decent group". If I wanted to solo I'd go play either a single player game, or any of the multitude of themepark MMO's out there.
I should be reading more other class threads, nice stuff in them.
I would see a shammy rezz, also as stated by invoking spirits. (/me has a legend of the seeker flashback) though...
What if rezz has side effects? Do you actually limit rezzes to certain classes?
I liked ZennExile summary.
Different rezz effects too..
Shaman rezz leaves the rezzed corpse with an evil spirit (uncontrolable movements, evil face)
Summoner rezz leaves the rezzed corpse in a decayed state (slow movements, rotting face)
Druid rezz leaves the rezzed corpse in a vegetative state (wriggling movements, woody face)
Cleric rezz leaves the rezzed corpse in a numb state (no movement, shorter duration, ashen face)
Necromancer rezz leaves the rezzed corpse in an undead state (clawing movements, spooky voice, skelly face)
Menubrea said:First of, where exactly are you getting that information? Druids aren't even in the game yet, and Clerics and Shamans (tagged as healer/support, not hybrid) are still pretty basic and subject to change. Pantheon is not Everquest, nor should we hope it to be exactly like it. A single healer and tank being heavily favoured for groups isn't something we should aim for.
As far as the argument of being able to "solo everything", assuming it ends up being somewhat true, seem like a pointless argument for a group oriented game. Hardly anyone is going to pick up this game and think to themselves: "I'm totally going to pick the best soloer, at the expense of being any worth to any decent group". If I wanted to solo I'd go play either a single player game, or any of the multitude of themepark MMO's out there.
Of course we are just speculating and giving our two cents, or our wishes. My information comes from what I remember game types that Pantheon is allegedly returning to - moving away from themepark solo play land, everyone can do everything, and more towards positively reinforcing group synergy.
So in order to make group synergy a thing, the classes must compliment each other in such a way that the sum of the group is more powerful than the sum of each part. So, if we take the holy trinity of Heal, Tank and Damage as our axes of capability, along that 3 dimensional space we can image a set of classes that are considered 'pure' - aka purely DPS, pure Tank or pure Healer - we would expect that these three classes are pretty poor at performing the other two roles accordingly. A hybrid type class would therefore by definition be located somewhat down the line on two of the axes. Healer/Tank or Healer/Dps or Tank/Dps. And again each of these would perform that third role poorly. In this case we would expect these 2dimensional hybrids to do those two things well, but not as good as the pure classes. Furthermore, we can imagine a 3 dimensional hybrid - one that can perform all roles. Each of these roles however should be even poorer as compared to the 2 dimensional hybrids, and of course then relatively even more poor compared to the pure classes.
It really can't be any other way, or else you have a group dynamic that is not necessarily synergistic. If the 3 dimensional hybrid can perform so well that you can step into a dungeon and be successful with a group of all 3 dimensional hybrids, well then you have no synergy at all. The only acceptable outcome in this case would be that sure, you can do some content, but you're going to be slower than a min-max setup of mostly pure classes with a few support hybrids brought in for buff completeness.
Looking around at the Shaman and Druid forums, it appears that some people want them to tank, some want them to heal, some want them to dps. If all of that were true, then that would make them 3 dimensional hybrids, and by definition, poor performers compared to the 'pure' classes and 2 dimensional hybrids.
Realize please of course this is all conceptual. We don't know for sure along which of these axes the classes will land. Perhaps there will be no true pure classes. Hopefully none of them are in the exact same spots on those axes , perhaps have similar ratios - for instance two classes could be Healer/Dps 2 dimensional type hybrids, but I would hope that one would be better at one of those roles, but worse than the other, and vice versa. I think that it wouldn't be as fun of a game to play if it wasn't the case. Part of the immersion and experience that I loved was knowing that class A was a beast compared to other classes in one role.
So group composition, in my perfect world, would probably be 1 of each of the pure classes, then the rest of the spots get filled with situational hybrids, either 2 or 3 dimensional. The trick then beyond deciding which archtypes to bring, is to balance utility among the classes to fill those spots.
If both Cleric and Shaman are defined as Healer + Support, then they are both 2 D hybrids, and I would expect one of the two to be better at one of those roles, and worse at the other, and vice versa. Perhaps each of their 'support' roles are actually on different secondary axes - for example the Shaman is Healer and DPS, while the Cleric is Healer and Tank/add management. So the comparison is invalid.
I would prefer the Cleric be Pure healer, though, and hope that one of the classes fills that role. That's where I will be playing. If that ends up being the Druid, then so be it - that's where I will want to be. I can't see druid fans being happy with that, though.
All the healers need to be fairly near the same in their healing throughput in whichever way they go about it, situationally one might edge out the others a bit for specific content. If clerics (or any) are the best healers then they will be the #1 pick when filling the role 9 times out of 10 for groups, raids will just get enough of the others for whatever unique thing they can offer then load up on clerics. That high favoring doubles down if they are the only ones with resurrect or the ones with the highest experience restoring resurrect. No one wants to settle for a lesser xp rez when leveling takes a long time, raiders especially will not accept the lesser and as such would further be influenced to stack raids with many clerics to aid in wipe recovery. So to that end I would really prefer to see Shaman get a rez ability on par with Cleric (Druid should have the same).
I'm going to quote Menubrea from a cleric thread surrounding resurrect/class strengths, I felt it cut to the heart of the issue very well and I believe it fits this discussion:
Menubrea said:The approach, I think, should be to offer Clerics greater variety in what they do, rather than depriving other healing classes essential tools to perform their primary role.
The logic around here seems to be that since Clerics don't do much beside healing, no other should be able to rival the class (since other classes have more depth). So instead of looking for ways to improve the Cleric overall experience, the thought is to relegate the Cleric to being healbots, while at the same time limit group variation due to having a clearly superior option when it comes to filling the healer role, both in terms of throughput and the ability to ressurect dead team-mates. Which will no doubt play a big part in this game's design.
...
I just don't think it has to be all that black and white. Variance, flavour and even imbalance is something we should allow and even encourage. What I think is important, however, is where you choose to allow those imbalances to happen. No class within the same role should have exclusive rights to abilities that automatically makes them the most attractive choice to any group composition. Situationally, sure. No problem with that, but if it ends up with a scenario where you have the choice between a Druid and a Cleric, and you end up picking the Cleric 10 out of 10 times, I think there's a design issue.
There are other ways to make classes from within the same role stand out from eachother. Not only from a healing perspective, but also from secondary role, and thematical abilities. For instance, you could have one healer specializing in direct healing, making the better choice for burst damage. Another one for healing over time, making them much less suited for burst, but overall either more mana efficient healing or potential throughput. Lastly you could have one specializing in area of effect healing, making them the superior choice for areas where damage is heavily spread out.
You could also differentiate them by what type of buff/utility they provide. Such as Defensive buffs, movement/regen, offensive stat buffs. Or even offtanking/minor CC/debuffs. You can also differentiate by allowing them to excel against certain mob types or conditions. Such as being outside or fighting undead.
These are examples on how I think it's possible to allow all classes within the same role situationally excel, without either limiting their own or others ability to perform their role at a general level. Making such a high value utility spell as the ability to ressurect dead team-mates exclusive to one, I think is the exact opposite of that.
Since Shaman and Druids both have SOW and powerful DOTs, and now rez (which is typically the hallmark of the Cleric and Paladin), maybe they give Clerics SOW and DOTs, as well? Being able to rez was one of two things that made Cleric and Paladins special. For clerics, the other thing that made it special was complete heal, and we know that complete heal will not be in the game.
metteec said:Since Shaman and Druids both have SOW and powerful DOTs, and now rez (which is typically the hallmark of the Cleric and Paladin), maybe they give Clerics SOW and DOTs, as well? Being able to rez was one of two things that made Cleric and Paladins special. For clerics, the other thing that made it special was complete heal, and we know that complete heal will not be in the game.
It isn't that Shaman and Druids 'now' have rez, Brad stated it was always intended that all three priest classes would 1) have resurrection and 2) have equal healing 'power'. Brad said that classes of the same archetype would perform their primary job equally. Tank classes will all tank equally, all priests will heal/rez equally, etc.
We already know that the Shaman will have buffs, debuffs and dots. Alot of the same utility it had in EQ1. It will be a very strong class. The Cleric does need enough to make it worth playing and I think that will come through decent melee DPS and incredible damage vs undead*. I fully expect Clerics will have similar buff lines to what we saw in EQ1, that being pure HP and AC buffs and probably alot of cure spells for good utility.
Vandraad said:metteec said:Since Shaman and Druids both have SOW and powerful DOTs, and now rez (which is typically the hallmark of the Cleric and Paladin), maybe they give Clerics SOW and DOTs, as well? Being able to rez was one of two things that made Cleric and Paladins special. For clerics, the other thing that made it special was complete heal, and we know that complete heal will not be in the game.
It isn't that Shaman and Druids 'now' have rez, Brad stated it was always intended that all three priest classes would 1) have resurrection and 2) have equal healing 'power'. Brad said that classes of the same archetype would perform their primary job equally. Tank classes will all tank equally, all priests will heal/rez equally, etc.
We already know that the Shaman will have buffs, debuffs and dots. Alot of the same utility it had in EQ1. It will be a very strong class. The Cleric does need enough to make it worth playing and I think that will come through decent melee DPS and incredible damage vs undead*. I fully expect Clerics will have similar buff lines to what we saw in EQ1, that being pure HP and AC buffs and probably alot of cure spells for good utility.
I seem to remember hearing that warriors/clerics would have the highest "pure throughput" for tanking/healing ... historically, shamans/druids and crusaders provided way more utility than their pure-bred counterparts. If all tank classes perform the same, why would anybody want to roll a warrior when they can instead add healing, lifetaps, pets, or other major incentives to their kit? Similarly, shamans will have movement speed buffs, mana regeneration, a pet, powerful debuffs, etc. Clerics would feel very underwhelming if their defining characteristics were melee DPS and bonus damage vs undead. Extra curing utility would be nice, and maybe that will come into fruition ... but I doubt it stops there.
My understanding, with shamans specifically, is that they will narrow the gap by providing powerful buffs/debuffs. For example ... if they get an attack speed slow, that will lower the DPS of different mobs enough to where the same healing from a cleric wouldn't quite be necessary. I personally hope that each class has an opportunity to excel in different situations. I am willing to forego a lot of useful solo/group utility on my warrior if it means I'll be a better option on some of the raid fights ... but if all things are equal, bleh. I imagine certain classes pairing really well together. For example, in a group ... shamans/paladins could be really strong. Shamans might not have the same heals as a cleric, but paladins can make up for that with some self-healing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uia9jADhav8 ; (1:21:10)
Joppa mentions how there will be a handful of classes that have the rez ability, with some versions being more potent than others. He also touched on how some of the rez abilities might have different "after effects" or "tertiary effects."
I have seen the comment on here that if clerics get the best rez, groups will always seek them out over the other healers. Huh?? I guess it all depends on what people are setting out to do. If they plan on dying a lot, then sure, maybe they will want to bring a cleric. If they want to have the best "XP group" they will probably go with whatever healer can get the job done, while also providing the most utility/sustain. Maybe druids are the best healer to use in tandem with casters ... maybe shamans are better with melee. Either way, I think it's very important that each class provides very different flavors. All healers should not be able to heal the same. All tanks should not be able to tank the same. It should vary ... depending on where you are going, what your composition looks like (for buff/debuff overlap and synergy), what kind of mobs you will be fighting, whether you are grouping or raiding, etc. This same logic also applies to DPS classes.
There was actually an interesting conversation that came up in the VIP channel not too long ago. Personally, I have always advocated for deleveling. Death should always sting, and getting to max level in other games prevented that. The idea that was shared was that you would suffer a nasty debuff if you die at max level without a buffer. So basically, at max level, you can continue to earn XP up until 99.9%. Dying will remove a portion of your XP. If you die without the buffer then you would enter XP debt ... while in debt, you suffer from the nasty debuff. I could live with something like that ... the most important thing, to me, is ensuring that death continues to be meaningful after hitting max.
oneADseven said:I seem to remember hearing that warriors/clerics would have the highest "pure throughput" for tanking/healing ... historically, shamans/druids and crusaders provided way more utility than their pure-bred counterparts. If all tank classes perform the same, why would anybody want to roll a warrior when they can instead add healing, lifetaps, pets, or other major incentives to their kit? Similarly, shamans will have movement speed buffs, mana regeneration, a pet, powerful debuffs, etc. Clerics would feel very underwhelming if their defining characteristics were melee DPS and bonus damage vs undead. Extra curing utility would be nice, and maybe that will come into fruition ... but I doubt it stops there.
In the scenario where all three healer and tanks heal and mitigate damage "equally, the Warrior and Clerics would obviously be given tools to compete in utility. Whenever this is discussed, it seem to just be assumed that Warriors and Clerics stay the same, while the other classes is just rewarded more. I don't think that's something people want. I just think people want to be able to have more options, more types of healing and tanking that suits their gamestyle and persona. It's also not great for group diversity and group forming to have a meta where there's an overdependence on a specific class to accomplish anything challenging. For large parts of EQ2, I felt this was the case when it came to Enchanters/Bards, not because of CC, but because of their mana battery abilities, and just the absolutely ludicrous amount of damage they would provide with their buffs. Groups would sit around waiting until one became available forever.
I think the challenge for VR is to make classes within the same role unique enough to stand out, and be able to have their own niche they perform best at, while not taking away from their ability to perform their primary role. "Generally equal, but situationally better or worse" is a good design doctrine to go by, I think.
My understanding, with shamans specifically, is that they will narrow the gap by providing powerful buffs/debuffs. For example ... if they get an attack speed slow, that will lower the DPS of different mobs enough to where the same healing from a cleric wouldn't quite be necessary. I personally hope that each class has an opportunity to excel in different situations. I am willing to forego a lot of useful solo/group utility on my warrior if it means I'll be a better option on some of the raid fights ... but if all things are equal, bleh. I imagine certain classes pairing really well together. For example, in a group ... shamans/paladins could be really strong. Shamans might not have the same heals as a cleric, but paladins can make up for that with some self-healing.
I think this is the idea, as well. However, I have some concerns when it comes to the reliance on debuffs to perform equally to another class. What if your debuffs get continously resisted? Heals don't have to deal with issues of that nature. Having your ability to keep the group alive being reliant on not only additional spell casts, but having those additional spell casts also be potentially meaningless takes away player agency, and creates a scenario of "high risk, low reward". Unless of course, the debuffs/buffs they provide make such a significant difference the Shaman himself is allowed to focus more on dealing damage, than actually spending his time casting heals during typical encounters.
Menubrea said:I think this is the idea, as well. However, I have some concerns when it comes to the reliance on debuffs to perform equally to another class. What if your debuffs get continously resisted? Heals don't have to deal with issues of that nature. Having your ability to keep the group alive being reliant on not only additional spell casts, but having those additional spell casts also be potentially meaningless takes away player agency, and creates a scenario of "high risk, low reward". Unless of course, the debuffs/buffs they provide make such a significant difference the Shaman himself is allowed to focus more on dealing damage, than actually spending his time casting heals during typical encounters.
As a shaman healer as my main, I can say having my de-buffs constantly resisted does effect my ability to keep people alive. Also the hate generated because I am trying to get that de-buff to stick while now having to cast heals in between this usually will tear the aggro from the tank and now it's me dead and the group sometimes after that. Having the ability to give a ressurection while nice to me and the group I play with just seems weird as its something I am not use to having outside of playing a pure healer.
As far as healing goes, I kind of liked how WoW did their healing classes. Each one was done differently. Paladins were all about the big heals. Holy priest was decent at big heals and better at group heals. Disc priest was shields (wards). Shaman was similar to holy priest but more on group heals and some heal over times. Druid was all about heals over time with minor bursts of instant heals. I have played every one of them and they were all fun in their own unique way (and could all main heal a group).
I'm excited that all healers can resurrect. I always hated that about Everquest healing classes.
One comment made by Vandraad that all healers have the same healing power seems to conflict with the Pantheon cleric description:
"To his core, the Cleric is focused on healing himself and his allies, and in this role he has no equal." Source: https://pantheonmmo.com/classes/cleric/
Hopefully, they give Clerics an ability to offset losing the exclusiveness of resurrection.
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metteec said:One comment made by Vandraad that all healers have the same healing power seems to conflict with the Pantheon cleric description:
"To his core, the Cleric is focused on healing himself and his allies, and in this role he has no equal." Source: https://pantheonmmo.com/classes/cleric/
Hopefully, they give Clerics an ability to offset losing the exclusiveness of resurrection.
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Kilsin and I debated this on Discord one evening. You can even see some of this much earlier in this very thread. I'm actually not wanting the Shaman to heal as well as a Cleric specifically in a raid situation. Group level content though? Absolutely I believe a Shaman should be able to keep a group alive through the combination of lowering incoming DPS through debuffs and increasing group outgoing DPS through buffs. Thus fights are quicker, mobs die faster doing lower DPS and the less powerful/efficient Shaman heals should suffice. This was easily done in EQ1 eventually, once you got to a certain level, AA count and gear.
I like classes to be different otherwise why have them at all. Have 1 priest, 1 tank, 1 melee dps, 1 caster dps and call it done. That is boring though.
Put a Shaman and a Cleric side by side and through comparing only the power of their healing spells, the Cleric is the more powerful healer..and thus has no equal. Where a Cleric could cast Complete Heal, healing a tank to full hitpoints with one spell, a Shaman might need to cast 2 or 3 of its best heal spell. They both get the job done, the cleric does it faster with 1 spell cast while the Shaman takes twice as long (and probably more mana) needing 2 casts.
metteec said:One comment made by Vandraad that all healers have the same healing power seems to conflict with the Pantheon cleric description:
"To his core, the Cleric is focused on healing himself and his allies, and in this role he has no equal." Source: https://pantheonmmo.com/classes/cleric/
Hopefully, they give Clerics an ability to offset losing the exclusiveness of resurrection.
XX
Tough to say. I imagine the class pages might be outdated by now or release. There could be a definite balance issue if clerics are the strongest healers since that might screw over shaman and druid when it comes to raids. Why bring more than a token shaman and druid before stacking the raid with clerics?
I guess one way to go about that would be making the three healers rely on one another in raids? Cleric have the strongest direct heals but need druid HoTs ticking so they can keep pace with incoming damage and perhaps shaman heals would enhance the incoming healing % for a few seconds after each cast or for just the next heal that lands on a target as well as having the most efficient AoE healing.
Iksar said:Tough to say. I imagine the class pages might be outdated by now or release. There could be a definite balance issue if clerics are the strongest healers since that might screw over shaman and druid when it comes to raids. Why bring more than a token shaman and druid before stacking the raid with clerics?
I guess one way to go about that would be making the three healers rely on one another in raids? Cleric have the strongest direct heals but need druid HoTs ticking so they can keep pace with incoming damage and perhaps shaman heals would enhance the incoming healing % for a few seconds after each cast or for just the next heal that lands on a target as well as having the most efficient AoE healing.
Another way to not make it a balance issue is to make druids and shamans able to offer something other than having to exclusively heal at a raid. Examples could include buffs, debuffs, evacs, charming capabilities or crowd control. We need to separate balance in grouping and balance in raiding:
- Shamans, Clerics, and Druids can have capabilitiy to KEEP ALIVE their party effectively, but in different ways (already mentioned by Vandraad).
- Shamans, Clerics, and Druids can have different roles in raids. For example (but not intended to be definite): Shaman slows, dots, and provides spot heals; Druid nukes, buffs, charms animals, casts HOT; Cleric heals, shields, and stuns.
Ultimately, it is VRs decision on how to balance and I am sure it will be influenced by feedback during testing.
metteec said:Ultimately, it is VRs decision on how to balance and I am sure it will be influenced by feedback during testing.
As I will be in testing from pre-alpha through release and always play Shaman whever possible, I'll be paying very close attention to this class. VR will be hearing from me quite frequently.
metteec said:Another way to not make it a balance issue is to make druids and shamans able to offer something other than having to exclusively heal at a raid. Examples could include buffs, debuffs, evacs, charming capabilities or crowd control. We need to separate balance in grouping and balance in raiding:
- Shamans, Clerics, and Druids can have capabilitiy to KEEP ALIVE their party effectively, but in different ways (already mentioned by Vandraad).
- Shamans, Clerics, and Druids can have different roles in raids. For example (but not intended to be definite): Shaman slows, dots, and provides spot heals; Druid nukes, buffs, charms animals, casts HOT; Cleric heals, shields, and stuns.
Ultimately, it is VRs decision on how to balance and I am sure it will be influenced by feedback during testing.
Doesn't work. Any game I have played where one healer (or tank) class is clearly the strongest/best, everything is skewed in their favor.
If shaman and druid can't match (+/- 1-15%) cleric in HEALING (their main role and reason for picked for groups/raids) then they will fall to bare minimum in raids while loading up on clerics. You only need 1 shaman/druid for whatever unique buffs/debuffs they can give because if they are mostly there doing DPS/CC then those are spots better filled by DPS/CC classes. For groups, if clerics are clearly the best healers then they either design the hardest group content with the idea you have a cleric or ruin the tuning so it can be done with the other two lesser healers, though notably easier with a cleric.
I think instead of rezzes it would be cool of Shaman's could "Spirit walk" group members to their corpses. :p
No need to stick to the same old tropes. We all want corpse retrievals but none of us are 18 sleeping on our parents couch anymore...we have real lives. Giving the class a tool to shorten CR's would add value to the class and be lore appropriate.
I'm imagining a mechanic where the spell would be cast and you would project a ghostly form. That form could then run to your corpse and you would reappear at your corpse. A higher level version of it could do the same thing for a group. You could even have different levels of the spell depending on level giving you more time to get to your corpse.
Tier 1: 1 Minute
Tier 2: 3 Minute
Tier 3: 5 Minutes
*shrug*
Just throwing out random ideas.