Forums » The Shaman

Anyone else thinks Shaman should to be a class that can res?

    • 19 posts
    August 21, 2016 6:47 AM PDT

    Having played a cleric for my entire EQ career (and bailing on Vanguard in Beta, sadly) I can say I have suffered some class envy for Shaman. Hard to argue against Shamans being one of the best utility classes, and some would argue overpowered. However, I was a better healer and I had rez... Them slows though! So I always wanted a shaman even if they were way more versatile because I was a specialist.

    Assuming Pantheon shamans will be similar to EQ's, it will be very simple for me to choose which class to play. If shamans heal as good as clerics, I will go shaman despite having no real connection to the class simply because they will be better, in almost every facet, than cleric. That goes double if they get the same quality of rezzes!

    In a game that promotes class interdependence, I am scared when I see things like "make everyone capable of rezzing, make everyone equally good at healing." That is what WOW did, and while I played that for many years while leveling every single healing class to max, it made it boring and I had no connection to any class (other than Priest in vanilla when I was "the healer").

    Just my two cents, from your fellow cleric (... or shaman)!

    • 452 posts
    August 21, 2016 10:30 AM PDT

    TheCleric said:

    Having played a cleric for my entire EQ career (and bailing on Vanguard in Beta, sadly) I can say I have suffered some class envy for Shaman. Hard to argue against Shamans being one of the best utility classes, and some would argue overpowered. However, I was a better healer and I had rez... Them slows though! So I always wanted a shaman even if they were way more versatile because I was a specialist.

    Assuming Pantheon shamans will be similar to EQ's, it will be very simple for me to choose which class to play. If shamans heal as good as clerics, I will go shaman despite having no real connection to the class simply because they will be better, in almost every facet, than cleric. That goes double if they get the same quality of rezzes!

    In a game that promotes class interdependence, I am scared when I see things like "make everyone capable of rezzing, make everyone equally good at healing." That is what WOW did, and while I played that for many years while leveling every single healing class to max, it made it boring and I had no connection to any class (other than Priest in vanilla when I was "the healer").

    Just my two cents, from your fellow cleric (... or shaman)!

     

    Having played a shaman since 2000 in almost all games . Please don't envy shaman .  clerics will always be wanted and desired . I know I always wanted those cleric heals n buffs even though I had buffs . cleric heals were always better stronger and bigger :):):) .  Whether Pantheon gives shaman rez or not .. I do know That The cleric n shaman will BOTH heal great just differently , unique to their class ... 


    This post was edited by Shea at August 21, 2016 11:10 AM PDT
    • 50 posts
    August 21, 2016 9:39 PM PDT

    I'd like to see the shaman have some type of rez, but twist it a bit somehow. The way i see it the shaman could shove the spirit back into it's meat suit but it is imperfect. So maybe they become undead and suffer effects of the undead until they can get 'fixed' by a strong enough cleric, whether it be another player or an NPC.  Or maybe some type of permanent 20% penalty to health and mana till said cleric clears it up etc etc

    • 153 posts
    August 22, 2016 7:03 PM PDT

    Absolutely not. Not ever.

    I need this, I need that, "Oh, I died again, buffs pls!" Got sow? Fos? Str? Dex? Sta? Agil? Resists? Avatar!? "CRIPPLE AND SLOW THIS PLEASE WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!" Got a Charisma!? (seriously why do you need that?! You're a paladin... "The dispells yo!" *facepalm*) "TORPOR PLEASE I AM ILL!" *Look at me run into more mobs!!!!!* "ROOT! ROOT! ROOT! OMG FIRE! HELP! HELP!" "Hey, could I have a haste please kind ogre?" "GO TALK TO THE CHANTER!!! ROAR!" "WHERE THE THE SLOW?!?!?!" *cries*. I can only imagine it, my body suffering from mana anemia, then a bunch of people start screaming for rezes. Is it not enough I am OOM from all of your needy tendencies now I have to rez you too.

    There is a reason why I will be maining a rogue this time around. :P lol.


    This post was edited by Rogue at August 22, 2016 7:13 PM PDT
    • 2257 posts
    August 23, 2016 7:17 PM PDT

    Rogue said:

    Absolutely not. Not ever.

    I need this, I need that, "Oh, I died again, buffs pls!" Got sow? Fos? Str? Dex? Sta? Agil? Resists? Avatar!? "CRIPPLE AND SLOW THIS PLEASE WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!" Got a Charisma!? (seriously why do you need that?! You're a paladin... "The dispells yo!" *facepalm*) "TORPOR PLEASE I AM ILL!" *Look at me run into more mobs!!!!!* "ROOT! ROOT! ROOT! OMG FIRE! HELP! HELP!" "Hey, could I have a haste please kind ogre?" "GO TALK TO THE CHANTER!!! ROAR!" "WHERE THE THE SLOW?!?!?!" *cries*. I can only imagine it, my body suffering from mana anemia, then a bunch of people start screaming for rezes. Is it not enough I am OOM from all of your needy tendencies now I have to rez you too.

    There is a reason why I will be maining a rogue this time around. :P lol.

    ROFL...that was hilarious.

    • 98 posts
    August 26, 2016 9:41 AM PDT

    everett said:

    I'd like to see the shaman have some type of rez, but twist it a bit somehow. The way i see it the shaman could shove the spirit back into it's meat suit but it is imperfect. So maybe they become undead and suffer effects of the undead until they can get 'fixed' by a strong enough cleric, whether it be another player or an NPC.  Or maybe some type of permanent 20% penalty to health and mana till said cleric clears it up etc etc

     

    Agreed.  Shaman should have a way to rez, but it shouldnt be an attractive option.  Shaman rez should be a last resort type of way to summon a player back to corpse.

    • 115 posts
    August 26, 2016 2:24 PM PDT
    • Defector said:
      everett said:

       

      I'd like to see the shaman have some type of rez, but twist it a bit somehow. The way i see it the shaman could shove the spirit back into it's meat suit but it is imperfect. So maybe they become undead and suffer effects of the undead until they can get 'fixed' by a strong enough cleric, whether it be another player or an NPC.  Or maybe some type of permanent 20% penalty to health and mana till said cleric clears it up etc etc

       

       

       

      Agreed.  Shaman should have a way to rez, but it shouldnt be an attractive option.  Shaman rez should be a last resort type of way to summon a player back to corpse.

     

     

    Just a thought that I had after reading both Defector's  and Everett's comments.  Since the shaman is supposed to be so closely connected to the ancestors of both friend and foe, and most of his abilities seem to be more debilitating than buffing...maybe his ressurection is more like a gradual revival which culminates in a complete ressurection, perhaps powered by a totem.  

    The shaman places a totem near the corpse of his fallen comrade, and begins chanting in a low voice, pleading with and enticing their ancestors to lend their strength to break the curse of death.  As his chanting comes to a crescendo, glowing mists gather into the totem, and suddenly a glowing etherial link.  The once corpse slowly rises, looking around in confusion.  The shaman speaks.  "Welcome back, my friend.  Death had almost claimed you, but your ancestors found you worthy enough to expend their power to bring you back from the River Styx (or some Pantheon equivalent).  But your journey back is not yet complete.  Their power resides in this totem, and remaining hear will hasten your restoration, as well as strengthen and sustain you until it is complete.  Venture too far, and your recovery will take longer and be much more painful.  Protect your totem, for your enemies may realize its powers."

    This could be represented by a semi debilitating debuff, similar to rez sickness in EQ.  However, remaining near the totem will give you a buff that either mostly or entirely negates the debuff.  As an additional possibility, if your totem is destroyed by an enemy, you might get a debuff that prevents your ancestors from aiding you again, for a time.

     


    This post was edited by Irriaden at August 26, 2016 2:25 PM PDT
    • 4 posts
    August 27, 2016 8:02 PM PDT

    I would be ok with just cleric rezzes. All priests being able to rez is prolly too much. Maybe something in between: cleric with normal rez and shm with a limited rez.

    After wiping, a party should have a couple options besides running ALL the way to the corpses as long as it has the classes with appropriate abilities.

    Having the ability to be a viable group without the "trinity" would make the game more playable IMO.

    • 4 posts
    August 28, 2016 1:08 PM PDT

    Just a thought that I had after reading both Defector's  and Everett's comments.  Since the shaman is supposed to be so closely connected to the ancestors of both friend and foe, and most of his abilities seem to be more debilitating than buffing...maybe his ressurection is more like a gradual revival which culminates in a complete ressurection, perhaps powered by a totem.  

    The shaman places a totem near the corpse of his fallen comrade, and begins chanting in a low voice, pleading with and enticing their ancestors to lend their strength to break the curse of death.  As his chanting comes to a crescendo, glowing mists gather into the totem, and suddenly a glowing etherial link.  The once corpse slowly rises, looking around in confusion.  The shaman speaks.  "Welcome back, my friend.  Death had almost claimed you, but your ancestors found you worthy enough to expend their power to bring you back from the River Styx (or some Pantheon equivalent).  But your journey back is not yet complete.  Their power resides in this totem, and remaining hear will hasten your restoration, as well as strengthen and sustain you until it is complete.  Venture too far, and your recovery will take longer and be much more painful.  Protect your totem, for your enemies may realize its powers."

    This could be represented by a semi debilitating debuff, similar to rez sickness in EQ.  However, remaining near the totem will give you a buff that either mostly or entirely negates the debuff.  As an additional possibility, if your totem is destroyed by an enemy, you might get a debuff that prevents your ancestors from aiding you again, for a time.

     

     

    Almost exactly what I was thinking, but with a few changes.  Make it so the totem will revive players within its aura after a little period of time, say, 5 minutes in the aura.  It will revive them with about 50% experience regained (with varying levels of exp returned as you level up, up to 50% that is).  When they're resurrected, they come back to their bodies, but they MUST stay within the aura for another maybe 2 minutes.  Here's where I'm debating ideas, either have the players immediately die again (gotta keep it as something, but not above clerics) or have them go immediately back into bleedout, prompting the necessity of the shaman to heal them back with the spiritual healing.  This'll be if they leave the aura in any form or fashion, be it moving away or a monster killing the totem.  I think this should also be one of the only totems that you can place on the ground, and require a crapton of mana to cast and maintain.  As well, while the players are recovering, a cleric could come up and cast resurrect on them to recover the rest of the exp loss, and it removes the requirement to stay within the aura.  They are the masters of life, after all, we just take the holistic approach.

    • 2257 posts
    August 28, 2016 7:41 PM PDT

    Muddobbers said:

    Just a thought that I had after reading both Defector's  and Everett's comments.  Since the shaman is supposed to be so closely connected to the ancestors of both friend and foe, and most of his abilities seem to be more debilitating than buffing...maybe his ressurection is more like a gradual revival which culminates in a complete ressurection, perhaps powered by a totem.  

    The shaman places a totem near the corpse of his fallen comrade, and begins chanting in a low voice, pleading with and enticing their ancestors to lend their strength to break the curse of death.  As his chanting comes to a crescendo, glowing mists gather into the totem, and suddenly a glowing etherial link.  The once corpse slowly rises, looking around in confusion.  The shaman speaks.  "Welcome back, my friend.  Death had almost claimed you, but your ancestors found you worthy enough to expend their power to bring you back from the River Styx (or some Pantheon equivalent).  But your journey back is not yet complete.  Their power resides in this totem, and remaining hear will hasten your restoration, as well as strengthen and sustain you until it is complete.  Venture too far, and your recovery will take longer and be much more painful.  Protect your totem, for your enemies may realize its powers."

    This could be represented by a semi debilitating debuff, similar to rez sickness in EQ.  However, remaining near the totem will give you a buff that either mostly or entirely negates the debuff.  As an additional possibility, if your totem is destroyed by an enemy, you might get a debuff that prevents your ancestors from aiding you again, for a time.

     

     

    Almost exactly what I was thinking, but with a few changes.  Make it so the totem will revive players within its aura after a little period of time, say, 5 minutes in the aura.  It will revive them with about 50% experience regained (with varying levels of exp returned as you level up, up to 50% that is).  When they're resurrected, they come back to their bodies, but they MUST stay within the aura for another maybe 2 minutes.  Here's where I'm debating ideas, either have the players immediately die again (gotta keep it as something, but not above clerics) or have them go immediately back into bleedout, prompting the necessity of the shaman to heal them back with the spiritual healing.  This'll be if they leave the aura in any form or fashion, be it moving away or a monster killing the totem.  I think this should also be one of the only totems that you can place on the ground, and require a crapton of mana to cast and maintain.  As well, while the players are recovering, a cleric could come up and cast resurrect on them to recover the rest of the exp loss, and it removes the requirement to stay within the aura.  They are the masters of life, after all, we just take the holistic approach.

    I really think that this approach would be a very good way of balancing resurrection between the priest classes.  I've never liked that VR has said all priests will be able to heal and rez 'equally'.  Different 'flavors' of resurrections would go a long way to giving me reassurances that my Shaman will not just be a differently dressed Cleric.  A cleric rezzes you and after you loot your corpse you suffer from some resurrection effects for a few moments but otherwise are unhampered.  A shaman rezzes you and you do not suffer from any resurrection effects but are limited to small area for short time.  I like that trade-off because there could be situations where one would be preferable over the other.

    • 296 posts
    September 10, 2016 9:56 PM PDT

    I just rezzed this thread.

     

    I must be a cleric ;)

    • 8 posts
    October 16, 2016 6:10 AM PDT

    Retsof said:

    I just rezzed this thread.

     

    I must be a necromancer ;)

    • 2257 posts
    October 16, 2016 10:00 AM PDT

    Retsof said:

    I just rezzed this thread.

     

    I must be a cleric ;)

    Actually you're a lousy cleric for letting it die in the first place.  :)

    • 252 posts
    October 16, 2016 4:14 PM PDT

    If we have three rezzing classes, I'd like there to be class specific unique rez penalties. For example,

    1) A cleric rez will temporarily negatively impact your survivabillity statistics (stamina, health, endurance),
    2) A druid rez will temporarily negatively impact your combat statistics (strength, wisdom/int, dexterity),
    3) A shaman rez will temporarily negatively impact your time dependent statistics (move speed, attack speed, casting speed, regen speed).

    (I need to go back and read this thread thoroughly, lots of neat ideas hidden in here.)


    This post was edited by Syntro at October 17, 2016 11:19 AM PDT
    • 320 posts
    October 17, 2016 10:57 AM PDT

    That's an interesting way to do it Syntro. The only thing I might change is the cleric part. They keep on wanting ways for clerics to have the best rezzes (I'm more than fine with that). It also seems odd for the cleric to have a negative impact on health related stats, just my opinion. The stats thing (or similar) has been brought up here and/or in the cleric forum thread, lots of posts between the two. Your idea that makes each class have a different effect is smart imo, lore/whatever. (Sorry to anyone who has stated this concept in another post if I didn't remember)

    • 252 posts
    October 17, 2016 11:29 AM PDT

    Yeah tanwedar, you're right. Maybe it's better to just not have any penalty for a cleric rez. I was trying to have the negative effects reflect the iconic abilities of the class (thus the temporal debuffs from the shaman's penalty). 

    What if, more appropriately, the negative effect of a druid rez would be a temporary condition:
    Inverted Thorns - Anytime this character recieves damage, he/she also receives additional damage. (the effect of which inversely scales with the level of the rez spell).
    or
    Natural Dissonance - The player is out of sorts as he/she renters the realm of existance. As such, their natural attunement in the world is severly inhibited. Character's are unable, or severly hindered, to interact with environmentally derived mana climates.




    • 320 posts
    October 17, 2016 12:07 PM PDT

    I never played a druid, so I don't have much knowledge of how to give a negative benefit really specific to them. I could see them getting the movement hinderance, 5%-10% maybe, for a little while. Reawakening Thicket or something. They did just get their spirit dragged back to a corpse after all.

    The biggest issue with any of this is that it can't be too negative or people will just sit there for the duration of the debuff. That could be problematic depending on the length too - EQ1 res sickness was 4-5min iirc which wasn't too bad to wait through if needed (tank/healer got it). The lesser exp return that they had in EQ1 was annoying, but it didn't hinder your immediate combat unless you lost a level and couldn't use some gear. That would be your own fault though for getting rid of gear too soon.

     

    Also, I like your avatar!


    This post was edited by tanwedar at October 17, 2016 12:07 PM PDT
    • 252 posts
    October 17, 2016 12:15 PM PDT

    Right, like any suggestion in these forums, the effect itself is merely suggested while its intensity and duration would be determined during testing. No one wants an overly encumbering game. We definitely want more punishment than modern MMOs, but there is a limit to our suffering where it exceeds the cost/benefit balance. The gritty details are hashed out in testing.

    Thanks! Rick Sanchez is my spirit animal. :D

    • 2257 posts
    October 17, 2016 6:35 PM PDT

    Syntro said:

    If we have three rezzing classes, I'd like there to be class specific unique rez penalties. For example,

    1) A cleric rez will temporarily negatively impact your survivabillity statistics (stamina, health, endurance),
    2) A druid rez will temporarily negatively impact your combat statistics (strength, wisdom/int, dexterity),
    3) A shaman rez will temporarily negatively impact your time dependent statistics (move speed, attack speed, casting speed, regen speed).

    (I need to go back and read this thread thoroughly, lots of neat ideas hidden in here.)

    I gotta say, Syntro, that you've probably just posted the best idea these forums have seen in quite some time.  Having each rez class having different rez effects is just brilliant.  Well done.

    • 252 posts
    October 29, 2016 9:00 PM PDT

    Thanks Vandraad, I appreciate it! I forgot to check this thread - my bad for the late response :D. Yeah, I think its a nice way to resolve the "too many rezzers in the kitchen" problem.

    • 4528 posts
    November 7, 2016 1:11 PM PST

    The short answer is yes, Shaman's should be able to rez. They are at one with the spirit world, and therefore to me, it only makes sense that they be able to resurrect those spirits. I think having a handful of classes that can rez to some degree is a good thing. As others have mentioned, variety is the key. Here's the classes I could conceive of having a way to resurrect: Cleric, Crusader, Druid, Shaman, and maybe even Dire Lord.

    Cleric rez is pretty straightforward. They're gonna be the primary rezzers, as they get access to the spells earlier and would probably have slightly shorter cast times, cooldowns, mana costs, etc.

    Crusader rez would be similar considering that there is a lot of overlap in the lore. But the target wouldn't have as many hp when they are rezzed and the spells would cost more mana and have longer cooldowns.

    I really liked the way DDO handled the druid rez which was called Reincarnation. It had a long cast time, but when the target came back to life, they had a temporary effect on them. These were usually stat buffs/debuffs that corresponded to different animals. For example, if you were reincarnated as a bear, you'd have a bonus to CON, if you were reincarnated as a snake, you'd have a bonus to DEX. The effect you got was chosen at random and some effects would be negative. Perhaps in Pantheon it would be cool if your character even took on the appearance of the animal you were reincarnated as! The effect would wear off after a few minutes.

    Shaman rezzes might require some material components in their inventory in order to perform the ritual and perhaps the ritual (cast time) would take long enough that it wouldn't really be practical to use mid-combat unless you were somehow able to separate yourself from the heat of the fight quite a bit.

    Dire Lords (assuming they are similar to Necromancers) would be amiss, in my opinion, if they couldn't raise the dead. Both as NPC pets, but also their fellow party members. The catch would be that when they rez a party member, that person also becomes a zombie. This would kind of be a last resort - like your raid is about to wipe but the DL can pop off a quick Reanimate on your Cleric, who can then start rezzing everyone else. While that character is reanimated as a zombie, their STR, CON, CHA, and movement speed are significantly decreased and they have the appearance of a zombie. After a short time (~1 minute, or more depending on the level of the DL casting it) the zombie then returns to true death.

    This is gonna be a challenging game and people are gonna die. While death penalties haven't been confirmed yet, I think it's only reasonable that there be several classes that can rez in different situations.

     

    • 73 posts
    November 13, 2016 12:46 PM PST

    I'm still not sold on the idea that any class other than cleric should get rez, and I intend to play a shaman.

    I rather each priest class be a specialist in some way than each having the ability to rez. Death has to sting considerably, if each priest class has rez available who cares if you die - you'll be instantly rezzed.

    lets take note from the movie Conan the Barbarian- the wizard resurrects Conan by summoning forth spirits that must be fended off by his comrades, they succeeded, but not without a price to pay. Later during their adventures the "rogue" paid the ultimate sacrifice with her life.

    If Rez is available for the shaman class it should be done only by:

    the shaman donating his own experience, and hence, lifeblood to the cause.

    summoning an ethereal creature, considerably harder then the one who slew the fallen party member that must be fought off by the remaining group (with only a short timer to have this encounter) and would risk the lives of other remaining party members. If the creature is killed no exp is awarded but rather the life of the member.

    Otherwise we risk unbalancing and giving up all the other shamanistic aspects, dots, slows, buffs, etc that make this class so unique and sought after. 


    This post was edited by Valith at November 13, 2016 12:51 PM PST
    • 4528 posts
    November 14, 2016 12:18 PM PST

    Valith said:

    I'm still not sold on the idea that any class other than cleric should get rez, and I intend to play a shaman.

    I rather each priest class be a specialist in some way than each having the ability to rez. Death has to sting considerably, if each priest class has rez available who cares if you die - you'll be instantly rezzed.

    lets take note from the movie Conan the Barbarian- the wizard resurrects Conan by summoning forth spirits that must be fended off by his comrades, they succeeded, but not without a price to pay. Later during their adventures the "rogue" paid the ultimate sacrifice with her life.

    If Rez is available for the shaman class it should be done only by:

    the shaman donating his own experience, and hence, lifeblood to the cause.

    summoning an ethereal creature, considerably harder then the one who slew the fallen party member that must be fought off by the remaining group (with only a short timer to have this encounter) and would risk the lives of other remaining party members. If the creature is killed no exp is awarded but rather the life of the member.

    Otherwise we risk unbalancing and giving up all the other shamanistic aspects, dots, slows, buffs, etc that make this class so unique and sought after. 

    The problem with only Clerics being able to rez is that every single group will specifically want a Cleric. I plan on being a Cleric main partly because I find it easier to find groups in most games. But if Clerics are the ONLY rezzers, it basically makes them a requirement for most content, which offsets the supply/demand of different classes and thats unhealthy for the game. Other classes will basically feel inferior. We already know that Clerics will be the best healers - making them the only rezzers in the game takes it way too far. It's possible to make dying significant and also have multiple classes be able to rez. Maybe it's a matter of not refunding the XP (or only a very small amount) that was lost, but at least you don't have to run all the way back to your corpse.

    I do like your ideas for unique methods of rezzing, especially having to fend off spirits. I think that is important to having some overlap in roles, while still maintaining the class's identity and giving each a unique style and flavor. Side note: I don't think using experience as a "currency" or mana cost for rezzing is a good thing. It would make more sense for the shaman to just have to sacrifice a large portion of his/her own HP. But making your group defeat a summoned add in order to rez the fallen party member? That sounds fun :)

    • 2257 posts
    November 14, 2016 6:36 PM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    Valith said:

    I'm still not sold on the idea that any class other than cleric should get rez, and I intend to play a shaman.

    I rather each priest class be a specialist in some way than each having the ability to rez. Death has to sting considerably, if each priest class has rez available who cares if you die - you'll be instantly rezzed.

    lets take note from the movie Conan the Barbarian- the wizard resurrects Conan by summoning forth spirits that must be fended off by his comrades, they succeeded, but not without a price to pay. Later during their adventures the "rogue" paid the ultimate sacrifice with her life.

    If Rez is available for the shaman class it should be done only by:

    the shaman donating his own experience, and hence, lifeblood to the cause.

    summoning an ethereal creature, considerably harder then the one who slew the fallen party member that must be fought off by the remaining group (with only a short timer to have this encounter) and would risk the lives of other remaining party members. If the creature is killed no exp is awarded but rather the life of the member.

    Otherwise we risk unbalancing and giving up all the other shamanistic aspects, dots, slows, buffs, etc that make this class so unique and sought after. 

    The problem with only Clerics being able to rez is that every single group will specifically want a Cleric. I plan on being a Cleric main partly because I find it easier to find groups in most games. But if Clerics are the ONLY rezzers, it basically makes them a requirement for most content, which offsets the supply/demand of different classes and thats unhealthy for the game. Other classes will basically feel inferior. We already know that Clerics will be the best healers - making them the only rezzers in the game takes it way too far. It's possible to make dying significant and also have multiple classes be able to rez. Maybe it's a matter of not refunding the XP (or only a very small amount) that was lost, but at least you don't have to run all the way back to your corpse.

    I do like your ideas for unique methods of rezzing, especially having to fend off spirits. I think that is important to having some overlap in roles, while still maintaining the class's identity and giving each a unique style and flavor. Side note: I don't think using experience as a "currency" or mana cost for rezzing is a good thing. It would make more sense for the shaman to just have to sacrifice a large portion of his/her own HP. But making your group defeat a summoned add in order to rez the fallen party member? That sounds fun :)

    Sorry, Bazgrim, but your statement is not supported because dozens upon dozens of groups go XPing across the levels and do not have a Cleric. 'Requiring' a cleric was, and is, a crutch for groups who wanted that additional safety net should they do something stupid.  Highly compentent players rarely needed a cleric.  I know this for a fact because, as a Shaman, I could form highly effective groups and not need a Cleric.

    What good players realize is that although they will need a rez when they die, they know that they do not need a rez right then and there.  Why?  Game mechanics allows corpses to have rez timers where you could leave 1 item on a corpse and go out adventuring for nearly 2 more hours before that timer expired.  How many people played more than 2 hours in a night?  Not that many really.  So while you THINK you needed a rez immediately, in truth you did not.  You could have gotten back to your corpse via any number of means, rebuffed and continued on only to get your rez later before you decided to log off for the night.

    What you need is not a cleric in every group but at least a cleric in the area, one to whom you could drag a dead groupmate or pay for buffs, etc.  But you do not need a cleric in every group.

    • 4528 posts
    November 23, 2016 2:06 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    Bazgrim said:

    Valith said:

    I'm still not sold on the idea that any class other than cleric should get rez, and I intend to play a shaman.

    I rather each priest class be a specialist in some way than each having the ability to rez. Death has to sting considerably, if each priest class has rez available who cares if you die - you'll be instantly rezzed.

    lets take note from the movie Conan the Barbarian- the wizard resurrects Conan by summoning forth spirits that must be fended off by his comrades, they succeeded, but not without a price to pay. Later during their adventures the "rogue" paid the ultimate sacrifice with her life.

    If Rez is available for the shaman class it should be done only by:

    the shaman donating his own experience, and hence, lifeblood to the cause.

    summoning an ethereal creature, considerably harder then the one who slew the fallen party member that must be fought off by the remaining group (with only a short timer to have this encounter) and would risk the lives of other remaining party members. If the creature is killed no exp is awarded but rather the life of the member.

    Otherwise we risk unbalancing and giving up all the other shamanistic aspects, dots, slows, buffs, etc that make this class so unique and sought after. 

    The problem with only Clerics being able to rez is that every single group will specifically want a Cleric. I plan on being a Cleric main partly because I find it easier to find groups in most games. But if Clerics are the ONLY rezzers, it basically makes them a requirement for most content, which offsets the supply/demand of different classes and thats unhealthy for the game. Other classes will basically feel inferior. We already know that Clerics will be the best healers - making them the only rezzers in the game takes it way too far. It's possible to make dying significant and also have multiple classes be able to rez. Maybe it's a matter of not refunding the XP (or only a very small amount) that was lost, but at least you don't have to run all the way back to your corpse.

    I do like your ideas for unique methods of rezzing, especially having to fend off spirits. I think that is important to having some overlap in roles, while still maintaining the class's identity and giving each a unique style and flavor. Side note: I don't think using experience as a "currency" or mana cost for rezzing is a good thing. It would make more sense for the shaman to just have to sacrifice a large portion of his/her own HP. But making your group defeat a summoned add in order to rez the fallen party member? That sounds fun :)

    Sorry, Bazgrim, but your statement is not supported because dozens upon dozens of groups go XPing across the levels and do not have a Cleric. 'Requiring' a cleric was, and is, a crutch for groups who wanted that additional safety net should they do something stupid.  Highly compentent players rarely needed a cleric.  I know this for a fact because, as a Shaman, I could form highly effective groups and not need a Cleric.

    What good players realize is that although they will need a rez when they die, they know that they do not need a rez right then and there.  Why?  Game mechanics allows corpses to have rez timers where you could leave 1 item on a corpse and go out adventuring for nearly 2 more hours before that timer expired.  How many people played more than 2 hours in a night?  Not that many really.  So while you THINK you needed a rez immediately, in truth you did not.  You could have gotten back to your corpse via any number of means, rebuffed and continued on only to get your rez later before you decided to log off for the night.

    What you need is not a cleric in every group but at least a cleric in the area, one to whom you could drag a dead groupmate or pay for buffs, etc.  But you do not need a cleric in every group.

    While your point is fair, it seems like you're completely basing it off of how EQ1 worked. I was considering my experience from a more broad variety of games. I've realized that a strong argument cannot really be made either way until we learn what the death penalty will be like in Pantheon.