Ok, full disclosure statement here... I've posted this sort of thread in the far distant past. BUT, my last gear thread seems to have spawned some moderate conversation, and I had two more gear topics I wanted to re-raise given the fact that the community has expanded (lots of new names that I'm learning to recognize) - so I thought I'd bring the next one up.
The following statment assumes the two players are playing the same class... so here we go:
STATEMENT
The best player in the game wearing the worst gear in the game should perform better than the worst player in the game wearing the best gear in the game.
RATIONALE
- Gear in MMO's has become ludicrously powerful. Assuming they know how to push the WASD keys to avoid the fires and can press 1, 2, and 3 simultaneously - drastically better gear trumps skill.
- Player skill should always matter more. Gear, of course, should add weight to your performance. Perhaps considerable weight. But not enough to bridge the talent gap between very good players and very bad players.
- Covering up for skill deficits with gear encourages the non-skilled player to remain non-skilled... or at least masks from them the fact that they are non-skilled.
- Making gear more important than skill encourages chasing gear for the sake of chasing gear
What are your thoughts? Ready... GO!
How do you stop people from overgearing or zerging content? In my mind, you tighten the window of what gives exp and make utility mechanics matter.
1) Tightening the window of exp means that mobs that give exp should be close to your level such that your gear might help, but if you play sloppy, you get smoked.
2) Utility mechanics are things like slow, haste, giving your team dmg shields and taking the bad guys' DS away, mezz, stun, root, charm, etc. Basically, mob difficulty should be such that a 2 pull at even con or higher will have about a 75% wipe chance on bad players, and a 3 pull is a guaranteed wipe. By "pull" in this case I mean an uncontrolled, no CC/debuff type pulls. Your tank might have the Uber Breastplate of L33tn3ss, but if three hasted mobs with DS aggro him, their DPS simply cannot be outhealed, and if they can be mezzed, one hasted mob should be basically be able to keep pace with even big heals such that cleric either goes OOM, yanks aggro or both. That means that DS needs dispelled, the adds need locked, and the tank's aggro target needs slowed/crippled/tash'd/etc.
Utility needs to matter. If it does, and the mobs actually bring proper DPS, then gear won't matter as much as skill.
I would like a balance of both but certainly not dance dance revolution red circles and cones all over the screen. Example: have NM's you need to stun, sleep and such ofcourse but also things like the boss casts an aoe spell(that you don't see telegraphed on the floor but will know he is doing it) that turns every one in a certain raidius to stone for 10 or 15 sec. but if you face the other way when it does you won't be. That would be something every one would have to watch for and do and could be bad if it happened to a lot in your group at once. If they balance the gear (not over power it) and use neat little mechanics like above there can be a good balance.
I think I need to refocus the question. Let me simplify:
Hypothetical Situation
- Two players are the same class
- One is the best player of that class in the game, but they are wearing the worst gear in the game
- One is the worst player of that class in the game, but they are wearing the best gear in the game
Which one should perform better? It is my contention that skill should trump gear (although gear should be important)
I don't see how this discussion is different enough from your last one to warrant a new thread.
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2398/a-problem-with-modern-mmo-s-gear-is-the-goal
One is "What is your intention behind getting gear?"
One is "How much impact should gear have?"
Those would be two separate topics.
Wandidar said:I think I need to refocus the question. Let me simplify:
Hypothetical Situation
- Two players are the same class
- One is the best player of that class in the game, but they are wearing the worst gear in the game
- One is the worst player of that class in the game, but they are wearing the best gear in the game
Which one should perform better? It is my contention that skill should trump gear (although gear should be important)
Niether, because the one that is a good player at least needs decent gear to succeed while the other will fail because they suck. lol
Wandidar said:I think I need to refocus the question. Let me simplify:
Hypothetical Situation
- Two players are the same class
- One is the best player of that class in the game, but they are wearing the worst gear in the game
- One is the worst player of that class in the game, but they are wearing the best gear in the game
Which one should perform better? It is my contention that skill should trump gear (although gear should be important)
In my opinion its a meaningless question, because its taken to the extreme and it would never occur in the game.
I however agree with your idea in spirit and think gear shouldnt matter so much as to make skill redundant. However this is still a game where we will and most of us probably want to have highend gear and no matter if the worst or the best player has that gear it will give him a significant advantage over players without such gear. How big that advantage is depends on how strong the gear gets and it is probably only a matter of time before expansions increase that gear to a point where even a somewhat bad high geared player can defeat his equal in level who might just be the best player in the world just with crappy gear. That is in my opinion not wrong because in that case the low skilled player has most likely invested a huge amount of time in the game and thus be rewarded.
I would also like to add that skill and gear usually compliment each other especially in a game that hopefully will be very social where people know who is good and bad to group/raid with. (Good group/raid more gear....)
Remember gear in pantheon is not just about sheer power (ie +str), Brad has said that you will want to collect different gear for different situations:
"Gear will not be obsoleted quickly -- you'll be able to take pride in your gear. You will need different types of gear relative to different climates (we call it the situational items)."
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1whvd2/i_am_brad_mcquaid_one_of_the_creators_of/
I agree with Poke's post above. I think everyone would be upset if an ungeared (yet skilled) player came in and took out a boss - why even bother with gear then. Brad's situational gear gives us reasons to constantly be searching for pieces to help us in different encounters. That way you have earned the right to defeat a certain boss. You may have had the best gear to kill Frosty the Snoman, but you are going to need some fire resist if you want a shot at Heatmieser. It gives us more things to do in game by constantly searching for different pieces of gear.
Either way to address your title Wandidar - In either situation you are playing the game. :) Either by skill (tactics/avaoidance) or by spending the time playing in game earning that gear.
Neither. Needs to be a balance of a few things: abilities, gear, preparedness (knowledge of the right situational gear, skills, and consumables), knowledge of the enemy/encounter, understanding of the group dynamics of what the classes you are with bring to the table, knowing what your own class is capable of (not just basic knowledge but all the little nuances as well), and lastly the skill to pull it off.
If I have to break it down to closer what you are asking, then its still a balance of gear and skill.
If your forcing me to choose one or the other..... gear i suppose.