I think it would be interesting if stats could have meaning for all classes.
For instance what if INT determined how many mobs a tank could taunt with his AE taunt ?
Or how about as an enchanter I could get some STR gear and do some meleeing on the mobs with my staff while I keep the room on lock with my spells ?
I really hated it in EQ2 that you had like 2 stats that mattered and all the rest were basically worthless. All stats should have benefits for all classes.
This will lead to more diverse characters and be good for the games longevity.
Do you think all stats should matter or do you like the primary/secondary type of stat systems ?
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
I'm aganist all classes having all stats as I believe it trivializes gear/stats/class definition in general However, I would be more in support of having 3-4 stats that matter and are of equal importance which allows for more than one BIS piece of gear especially based off race selection as I had mentioned in the BIS thread.
Example Rogue:
Primary Stats:
STR: Weapon Min/Max Damage
STA: Endurance Pool (for skills)
DEX: Weapon Accuracy
AGI: Weapon Speed
Secondary Stat: AC for damage mitigation
Other thoughts: EQ took INT/WIS into account for tradeskill improvement (and skill improvement overall if I remember correctly), CHA for prices for vendors, STR for encumberance, STA for hps, etc. which could make those stats viable even if you weren't a class that needed them as a primary attribute for PvE effectiveness.
I actually agree that all stats should matter to everyone. It allows for much more variety and makes much more armor viable. You can see this big time in EQ2. In the beginning of the game, players needed a mix of many different stats, with certain ones being more important. Today, everyone focuses on 2 stats, and every piece of armor is basically the same. Its boring, and everyone ends up knowing exactly which piece of armor they should be going for.
I'd like to see stats have different benefits for both casters and melee. For instance, dexterity could be used to enhance spell casting for gestured spells, while for melee it could increase accuracy. Agility could effect dodge rate for both types. In the real world, wisdom and intelligence benefit you in everything you do. In melee combat, wisdom could help you anticipate the actions of enemy combatants allowing you to better parry or riposte.
There are so many ways you could use stats. When you make all stats useful to everyone, you increase the complexity of the game by allowing players to build their character differently. Maybe someone wants to focus on specific abilities that gain more benefit from a particular stat. That should totally be an option.
@Dullahan
I thought about presenting the points that you made, and I agree it would be neat to see that system implmeneted as it would allow many directions for which a player could play their class versus some cookie cutter stat build. I think the hard part would be in its implementation though. It would be hard (at least in my non-creative mind) on how to implement a class that had 10 stats that were equally viable. It's hard enough in most games to have 2-3 stats that are of equal importance. In the end, the game might develop reasons for all 10 stats and a few might try to play their class differently, but I'd bet that classes would narrow it down to the most important 3-4 to min/max ultimately. A good thread to create would be how to potentially make all Pantheon's projected stats viable for all classes though.
I understand where Raidan is coming from that classes should have primary stats, but I disagree that other stats shouldn't matter.
I'm not going to suggest a Warrior with max INT is going to outsmart his opponent, because that's just not a Warrior's style, but stats should matter to everyone. VG did a good job at that. INT made a difference to a Warrior but it wasn't as much of an impact as STR or CON.
bigdogchris said:I understand where Raidan is coming from that classes should have primary stats, but I disagree that other stats shouldn't matter.
I'm not going to suggest a Warrior with max INT is going to outsmart his opponent, because that's just not a Warrior's style, but stats should matter to everyone. VG did a good job at that. INT made a difference to a Warrior but it wasn't as much of an impact as STR or CON.
I have to agree, I played an epic DK tank too and my build was INT based for spell damage, as a lot of my hate abilities were spells, so it helped a lot being about to build my class the way I liked without turning me into a pure caster, I still needed STR, DEX and CON for melee damage, mitigation/crit and health points but I could switch and build my character the way I liked at any time I chose and it helped give the feeling of freedom and control over my character/class.
It didn't turn classes into a one-stop shop that could do everything and I would be against it if it did, but I think a similar system could work well in Pantheon.
I dont think all stats should be viable to all classes. I dont want to be equipping any/all gear I find because no matter what the stats, it will benefit me. I want to know what my class needs, seek it out, and earn it. Unless gear drops like candy in Pantheon, the leveling-up experience will become "just equip anything because its all good."
That said, I agree with Raidan to the extent that classes should benefit in some way from multiple stats, but would rather it be minor in comparison to their main stats. Gear that is designed toward one type of role over another makes the most sense to me. Here is what I dont want to see: Caster dps class rolling NEED on a str/sta/dex necklace against the tank because it supports his uber experimental 2h staff melee dps build... no thanks. So many things wrong with that scenario.
@Dekaden
Great point on the Str/Sta/Dex necklace. I remember having gear drop in EQ in which was obviously Tank/DPS specific and then having a cleric or druid etc. roll on it because it was a sword or mace. That would be only ampflied if all skills were relevant to all classes.
this is an interesting question. I like the fact that our stats should be useful for multiple things but i am not sure our stats should all lead to increased combat abilities.
I find it difficult to consider that Int is good for warrior unless there is some direct link to a skill eg taunt/provoke (more int allows you better understand opposition and know what will make them focus on you) and initimadtion ability would have no reliance on Int as it is about stature/appearance/roar - stemming from Str?
Int/Wis - could influence tactical awareness that could assist in flanking / knockdown resist.
How the above could be factored into gear itemisation does give headaches.
I like the idea of our stats potentially having an impact on our secondary and crafting skills. int could increse language comprehension and lets say cooking. My warrior may want to dabble in the culinary skills and want to learn a particularly beneficial orcish soup. Why not have it so i could have very dapper chefs outfit (with relevant chef like stats) that allows me to understand the recipe (language) and cook it. Obviously i would not wear this in a dungeon but in my house/guild house by the communal cookpot in the local village i would!
The options are endless and maybe using other stats to influence other choices /skills would add depth.
I hope we are beyond a world that says i am warrior give me str/health/ac
I think Pantheon would benefit greatly from this since the game is utilizing the multi color ability system. I don't know all the details of the multi color system but it does seem that if a 'red' warrior can use 'blue' enchanter' abilities then allowing the warrior to be able to benefit from intelligence seems fitting right?
I've always thought that every stat should provide some benefit to each class anyways. Using RPGs like Elder Scrolls would be an example (whether good or bad) where instead of having 6 inventory slots to equip 6 different bags (and chests/trunks) that all range from 20 slots to 48 has always seemed weird to me. I swear, EACH and every MMO I've played I've tried to picture my character with all these bags on him and it's just a funny image. But having Strength affect the amount of items you can carry would give cause to wizards and enchanters to build strength up in an MMO. A lot of people want immersion and want to avoid immersion breaking situations and having 6 48 slot bags has always broke it for me, especially when one of those bags is a big wooden chest...
And if this was implemented it wouldn't be hard to itemize appropriately without the headache of who can justifiably roll 'need' on an item. There are plenty of ways to make distinguished items. But not only that, this also has to come down to the raid leaders and guild leaders to decide the rules for looting in raids. Having loot rules for mains, alts, etc is always important to make raids go smoother.
I dont think all stats should matter, basically because because we are of a different class.
I have no idea of how many ststs there will be in game but if there are 10 stats, 4 should be core to my class, 4 should be nice to have and 2 should be totally irrelevent as they dont benefit my class.
If all stats mean all things to all classes whats the point in having classes to start with sort of thing, may as well start with a blank canvas at character creation.
Off for coffee.....
Tru
x
I'm not saying you get to choose where your stats go when you start the game... that should be based on race choice.
What I'm saying is that stats should have some merit for every class because they do more than just one thing.
For instance:
Int - Raises spell damage, Increases your chance to counterspell, Determines how many mobs can be taunted at once, Makes Ranger tracking radius larger, Increases trade skill ups, Allows for stronger Rogue poisons to be made, Makes bard songs have an extra verse, Determines how many mobs a Chanter can have on lockdown at once... etc...
Or would you rather just have vanilla stats that are simple to understand what they do just at a glance ?
Honestly I'm all for complex systems as long as they are polished and sensible.
Kiz~
Tuhart said:I dont think all stats should matter, basically because because we are of a different class.
I have no idea of how many ststs there will be in game but if there are 10 stats, 4 should be core to my class, 4 should be nice to have and 2 should be totally irrelevent as they dont benefit my class.
If all stats mean all things to all classes whats the point in having classes to start with sort of thing, may as well start with a blank canvas at character creation.
Off for coffee.....
Tru
x
Angrykiz said:I'm not saying you get to choose where your stats go when you start the game... that should be based on race choice.
Kiz~
I actually like the idea of stat variation at character creation. Why should every ogre warrior have exactly the same stats? are they clones? I agree completely that based on race there should be exceptions to min/max stats that can be chosen. I would expect that classes should have primary stats and most people would look to flesh these out but there should be an ability to choose that i want a higher health pool and may opt for less dexterity at start. I guess this the real RPG aspect for me and the individualisation of a character.
One of the big things i see wrong with the MMO world is that there is little emphasis RPG. Our characters are ours by look, which is really the only thing we can determine, oh and our name and who doesn't love some of them eg OMGBBQFTW one of my personal favourites from WoW.
Stat variation, at creation, and as we level allows that customisation the makes our characters ours. I see that this could as also change the focus on partcular BIS items as there would be a natural variation of what people may look to supplement as they level. This could impact trinket/jewellery selection, it may change how we optimise gear through gems/enchants or even what potion/flask/food we may use.
I grew tired of WoW for a reason - the dumbing down of stats. Every class irrespective of race, chased two stats. Characters were created as clones. they leveled as clones the same increase to stats across the board. they then fought for the exact same piece of gear because it had the stats they needed. Everything was homogenized and there was no individuality. WoW's answer was not rethink stat importance all they did was introduce Xmog for gear.......nice fix
All stats matter and they should.
Dekaden said:I dont think all stats should be viable to all classes. I dont want to be equipping any/all gear I find because no matter what the stats, it will benefit me. I want to know what my class needs, seek it out, and earn it. Unless gear drops like candy in Pantheon, the leveling-up experience will become "just equip anything because its all good."
That said, I agree with Raidan to the extent that classes should benefit in some way from multiple stats, but would rather it be minor in comparison to their main stats. Gear that is designed toward one type of role over another makes the most sense to me. Here is what I dont want to see: Caster dps class rolling NEED on a str/sta/dex necklace against the tank because it supports his uber experimental 2h staff melee dps build... no thanks. So many things wrong with that scenario.
I agree 100%.
Casters needing INT and STA makes sense, as does Warrior needing STR and STA. Having group members rolling need on drop that they dont NEED happened too often toward the end of my grouping raid experience. Which contributed to the end of raid grouping allong with other things.
Angrykiz said:I'm not saying you get to choose where your stats go when you start the game... that should be based on race choice.
What I'm saying is that stats should have some merit for every class because they do more than just one thing.
For instance:
Int - Raises spell damage, Increases your chance to counterspell, Determines how many mobs can be taunted at once, Makes Ranger tracking radius larger, Increases trade skill ups, Allows for stronger Rogue poisons to be made, Makes bard songs have an extra verse, Determines how many mobs a Chanter can have on lockdown at once... etc...
Or would you rather just have vanilla stats that are simple to understand what they do just at a glance ?
Honestly I'm all for complex systems as long as they are polished and sensible.
Kiz~
I liked EQs starting stats and the use of gear to enhance these stats, as you leveled. I, personally, do not like all stats for all players. Int should have no real use for a warrior: but str. and sta. should. When you get into the hybreds, like the ShadowKnight which can dps thru both a 2hS or spells, then you have to decide which is the way you want to go. My SK was a much better warrior than caster, so Str and Sta was my first choice there, and Int. third.
I like that my Necro had the choice of Int. of course first, and then sta or dex as second and third: both useful for a caster. My necro went with sta second for ability to keep casting, and my Wizard went for Int, dex. No matter what you did to a wiz they were first and foremost a glass cannon. May as well go for ducking ability over sta in that case.
Vanilla stat systems are too simple imo.
EQ spoiled me. I like warriors that fight not cast. Enchanters that CC chiefly. Shaman that buff. Rogues that cr and trip traps. Wizards that blast everything flat. Ect. Mixing up the 'pure bred' with abilities beyond their scope is just cheating the player imo. Make the class count. Make the stats count.
I favor a decaying skill set system. This mimics RL in that you can learn new skills at any time if you practise them, but if you neglect a skill, it decays over time.
Decay should be relatively quick in the short term, say 1% per day for the first game month, then slow over the following 3-12 months until almost gone completely, but it should never actually reach zero.
This means that people that specialise will retain an edge over generalists. If you practice every day, you'll be operating at 100% in your skill against someone who doesn't train for a week who will be down 7 percentage points on the specialist. You could regain the points at the same rate as you lose them, creating an equilibrium where you only have so much time in a day to practice, and opportinity cost kicks in.
For example, I'm in my mid 40's. As a teenager I played the violin for a number of years. I quit. A lear later, I picked up the violin and was rusty as all hell, but managed to play a tune from memory passably well. Now, some 30 years later, I couldn't play a damned thing, but I still know the proper technique to hold the instrument and bow - so more than someone who'd never learned.
Example 2. I did karate for about 20 years. I stopped about 5 years ago. If I tried to do some of the stuff I could do then, I'd likely hurt myself in the process, but I still remember the moves. In a fight, I'd be far less effective than at my peak, but I'd be far better than if I'd never learned at all.
Obviously a bit simplistic here, but you get the idea.
RandomCarnage said:I favor a decaying skill set system. This mimics RL in that you can learn new skills at any time if you practise them, but if you neglect a skill, it decays over time.
Decay should be relatively quick in the short term, say 1% per day for the first game month, then slow over the following 3-12 months until almost gone completely, but it should never actually reach zero.
This means that people that specialise will retain an edge over generalists. If you practice every day, you'll be operating at 100% in your skill against someone who doesn't train for a week who will be down 7 percentage points on the specialist. You could regain the points at the same rate as you lose them, creating an equilibrium where you only have so much time in a day to practice, and opportinity cost kicks in.
For example, I'm in my mid 40's. As a teenager I played the violin for a number of years. I quit. A lear later, I picked up the violin and was rusty as all hell, but managed to play a tune from memory passably well. Now, some 30 years later, I couldn't play a damned thing, but I still know the proper technique to hold the instrument and bow - so more than someone who'd never learned.
Example 2. I did karate for about 20 years. I stopped about 5 years ago. If I tried to do some of the stuff I could do then, I'd likely hurt myself in the process, but I still remember the moves. In a fight, I'd be far less effective than at my peak, but I'd be far better than if I'd never learned at all.
Obviously a bit simplistic here, but you get the idea.
Stuff like this makes you a slave to the game in bad ways.
People need to be able to take breaks and not feel penalized for coming back a few months later.
Any kind of decay of this nature is bad for over all player retention and causes excessive burn out.
Kiz~
If you want to have all stats be relevant for all classes they need to do something meaningful for the class, something that compliments the effect of the primary stat and gives an slightly alternate 'build' for a character yet can play a roll in the usefullness of the class. I don't want to see a class be built solely around a single stat.
Make decay based upon in-game time only. Problem solved.
Angrykiz said:I'm not saying you get to choose where your stats go when you start the game... that should be based on race choice.
What I'm saying is that stats should have some merit for every class because they do more than just one thing.
For instance:
Int - Raises spell damage, Increases your chance to counterspell, Determines how many mobs can be taunted at once, Makes Ranger tracking radius larger, Increases trade skill ups, Allows for stronger Rogue poisons to be made, Makes bard songs have an extra verse, Determines how many mobs a Chanter can have on lockdown at once... etc...
Or would you rather just have vanilla stats that are simple to understand what they do just at a glance ?
Honestly I'm all for complex systems as long as they are polished and sensible.
z~
Kiz~
I like the idea that stats matter in this regards. I mean it brings a sense of realism to each character. While each gamer playing their character may be wise and all knowing, their warrior with an 8 INT does not, thus should not be able to taunt many combatants in the field because in actually, that warrior "needs to swing me sword hardly". That said, a warrior with a higher INT could have the mental capability to understand tactics and could be more adept at combat.
But this also brings in a subset of skills such as Tactics that could increase for the 8 INT warrior, so over time they are able to increase their combat tactics.
My two cents
J
I like the idea of stats impacting me in real ways. I remember holding on to Charisma gear to increase the amount a vendor would give me for stuff for example. Casters didn't really need strength, but strength could benefit them sometimes if they were carrying a heavy item. I would prefer a base set of stats that impact different avatars in different ways.
What I dont really like is when a game has, for example, a set of primary stats - and then a set of sub stats that you need a math degree to decipher.
If you have Strength, agility, wisdom, intelligence, charasima, etc... Fine.
When you start having crit chance, crit bonus, multi attack, strikethrough, accuracy, flurry, reuse, recovery, potency, etc... it can become an issue - especially if the distinction isn't obvious simply by the name of the stat. Crit chance and crit bonus. Fairly obvious. But what if you have a stat called "reuse speed" and another called "recovery speed"
All of the stats I listed (and more) are on my stat page on my EQ2 avatar.
There is a line somewhere between having enough statistical distinction to keep your number crunchers happy and your people who don't want to be drowned in stats happy. It would be good if the game can find the happy medium there.
I've always like D&D's way of looking at stats and stat allocation. A warrior doesn't want to focus on intelligence or wisdom, but he doesn't want to neglect it either as they allow him to better resist mind controlling spells. Intelligence helps the rogue work locks better. Strength and dexterity still affect the wizard's use of a dagger or staff when he runs out if mana. Charisma helps the cleric turn/destroy more undead. Secondary stats do not make or break a character, but they do add a lot of flavor and help differentiate between one player's class and another's.
Great couple of posts here really explaning it better than I did Vorth and Wand...
Glad to see all these great constructive posts in the forums these days...
Kiz~