I'm wondering how this topic will be handled with respect to long term usefulness. I feel as though too often in modern mmo design that gear becomes obsolete far too quickly, and although most games do make you work for top-tier gear...it still isn't quite as epic as when you get a piece of gear you will use forever.
FFXI had an interesting itemization to it in the sense that a level 5 piece of gear could still be of use to a fully maxed out character based solely upon the special bonuses it provided. In more recent games a piece of gear has stats and that's it. Gear is bland, soulless, and replaced in a couple of months.
Along with the more general gear (which can be equipped by anyone) I would also like to see a return to class-specific gear that doesn't just add onto your main stats, but provides bonuses to things like cast speeds for certain spells, cooldowns, or adds another effect to these. An example would be gloves that add to a character that can steal's chance to successfully steal an item.
I realize I use ffxi as a comparison a lot but it's because it's the most old school mmo I played, so it's my best point of reference for a game looking to be similar to that.
From the FAQ:
Our desire to bring back the value and personality of items drives our item design. This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower and when you do get a new piece of gear not only will the experience be memorable but so will the item. We want you to collect your items and be able to remember their names. When you get that epic item or rare drop after an incredible dungeon crawl, we want you to be in awe of what you have accomplished and the reward that came from it. Items will be memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired.
There will also be many ‘situational’ items. Please see The Pantheon Difference.
So I want to add a little bit to this question. Maybe I will make a new post depending on if people look here or not. Will gear have a "no drop"/"no trade"/"bound to character" style? I understand the usefulness of this from the perspective of if your account gets hacked you dont lose everything. Or even not giving the super high end gear to lowbies. That said I would really like to see everything be tradeable. Let crafters make good items for everyone so that it doesn't feel like you worked so hard just to make one item for yourself and never craft again. Let me twink out my alts with gear that I farmed on my main. Let me sell the weapon I worked so hard to get, when I get a new one. From a Pantheon Tenet perspective I think that a game centered around community needs a good economy, and the more items you can trade the more explorable that economy becomes. Say No! to "No Drop". Also, level reqs can fill a big role in the not making lowbies too strong.
Edit: Listened to the Gaming Insiders Summit. Question Retracted.
Chaj said:Also, level reqs can fill a big role in the not making lowbies too strong.
One of the things I loved about EQ was th fact that you could give newbies really nice gear either an alt, or a friend/family that started late. I hope they have some way of twinking alts beyond just the retirement system.
Dreconic said:Chaj said:Also, level reqs can fill a big role in the not making lowbies too strong.
One of the things I loved about EQ was th fact that you could give newbies really nice gear either an alt, or a friend/family that started late. I hope they have some way of twinking alts beyond just the retirement system.
I like it too, but it makes me wonder. For instance, in Vanguard, they had super cool armor quests starting at level 11-12ish that would take you all the way to level 30 with solid class-specific stats and a nice weapon. The Hunter's League quests, if anyone remembers.
The HL quests were compelling enough that every player would run them on their alts just about. I probably completed the whole series upwards of a dozen times.
In EQ, twinking was cool, but sometimes it lost the plot. For instance, the Copper Hammer of Striking that procced at level 1 for several expansion and would kill any mob below level 15-20 in a single hit if it went off. Not to mention Fungus Covered Scale Tunics, which allowed you to (almost) trivially solo all of the classic game content, depending on class.
Liav said:Dreconic said:Chaj said:Also, level reqs can fill a big role in the not making lowbies too strong.
One of the things I loved about EQ was th fact that you could give newbies really nice gear either an alt, or a friend/family that started late. I hope they have some way of twinking alts beyond just the retirement system.
I like it too, but it makes me wonder. For instance, in Vanguard, they had super cool armor quests starting at level 11-12ish that would take you all the way to level 30 with solid class-specific stats and a nice weapon. The Hunter's League quests, if anyone remembers.
The HL quests were compelling enough that every player would run them on their alts just about. I probably completed the whole series upwards of a dozen times.
In EQ, twinking was cool, but sometimes it lost the plot. For instance, the Copper Hammer of Striking that procced at level 1 for several expansion and would kill any mob below level 15-20 in a single hit if it went off. Not to mention Fungus Covered Scale Tunics, which allowed you to (almost) trivially solo all of the classic game content, depending on class.
While I did love the HL quest line the fact that it was so good funneled everyone into one area. This is both good and bad, no matter what alt you and you pretty much did this and the cloak quest as it was the best gear for you, same with swamp gear.
I liked EQ that you each class had a top item in LGuK, Sol B, Perma etc. So you had to go to all those zones. I also liked that if you got your FBSS, your Yaks etc, you could either give to a guildy, a friend, an alt, a family member or sell them. Something like Epics should be BoE/P but I much rather have an FV loot system than what most games are doing now where every piece of loot is bound once you equip it and most are bound when you pick it up.
Dreconic said:While I did love the HL quest line the fact that it was so good funneled everyone into one area. This is both good and bad, no matter what alt you and you pretty much did this and the cloak quest as it was the best gear for you, same with swamp gear.
I liked EQ that you each class had a top item in LGuK, Sol B, Perma etc. So you had to go to all those zones. I also liked that if you got your FBSS, your Yaks etc, you could either give to a guildy, a friend, an alt, a family member or sell them. Something like Epics should be BoE/P but I much rather have an FV loot system than what most games are doing now where every piece of loot is bound once you equip it and most are bound when you pick it up.
Yes, very true, due to the quests value (items, time, enjoyment, longevity) it did make almost everyone want to travel that path, which made things a bit crowded in the early years, but in the later years, it actually helped bring people of the same level range together :)
Dreconic said:While I did love the HL quest line the fact that it was so good funneled everyone into one area. This is both good and bad, no matter what alt you and you pretty much did this and the cloak quest as it was the best gear for you, same with swamp gear.
Very true, especially with the massive game world that seems to be planned. I think it largely depends on just how difficult levels are to achieve.
For instance, in Vanguard, levels 1-30 really flew by. EQOA had a really good model along the same line as HL, although I'm not sure if you ever played that. In EQOA, levels were insanely hard to achieve by comparison. Hours upon hours of grinding even to hit just level 20, but man it was so satisfying to hit 20 and you were finally able to dual wield. Then at 35, when you were able to quad. (Rambling here a bit, so many memories)
Anyways, in EQOA, there were very powerful class-specific armor sets at 17, 25, and maybe 30 or 35 iirc. These quests also required you to venture to very far areas of the game world, too, as opposed to being focused all around a small area (Skrillien Point, mostly) in VG. There was a large travel risk associated with these quests in EQOA, and the fact that they were so spread out meant that the quests couldn't be banged out in super-quick succession. You'd almost always end up finding a group and grinding a bunch in between quests.
These quests served almost as a tutorial in a very vague sense, since you would get used to the game from 1-17ish doing simple tasks, then you're suddenly handed some relatively challenging quests that will make you powerful but also be unforgiving and require you to have a group in some cases.
Dreconic said:I liked EQ that you each class had a top item in LGuK, Sol B, Perma etc. So you had to go to all those zones. I also liked that if you got your FBSS, your Yaks etc, you could either give to a guildy, a friend, an alt, a family member or sell them. Something like Epics should be BoE/P but I much rather have an FV loot system than what most games are doing now where every piece of loot is bound once you equip it and most are bound when you pick it up.
Oh for sure. I've invested hundreds of thousands of plat into alts throughout my EQ career. I can still remember my Ranger twinked with a BoC/Fungi/36% haste belt shredding content during the Luclin/PoP era (which was my personal favorite era of EQ). I definitely see value in twinking and how it can be super fun and add a lot of replayability to old content. I spent more hours in Crushbone/Unrest/Paludal Caverns than I care to admit just for the fun of shredding mobs with amazing gear and making other players I group with envious.
@Kajidourden - how do you see class gear differing from set gear? In ESO, for example, all sets can be equipped by all classes, but players mix and match them based on the build they're currently using. All sets have value, just not to all players. In class only gear, you often have sets that are completely unusable, even though you're the right class, because you're not playing the right role or build. You may have an archer set piece equipped, but it only works with a trapper build or with a longbow/longer reach build.
One challenge with set pieces is they tend to be *very* strong, especially as the player adds more pieces to the set and unlocks further bonuses. Do you believe that actually limits player choice because that class is "forced" to grind something (open world boss, dungeon, reputation, etc.) to get specific pieces? Should Best in Slot gear be the same across everyone playing the same class?
I'd definitely like to see both set pieces and class specific pieces as it adds some uniqueness to loot. However, if all Warriors will have the exact same class set equipped, wouldn't that defeat the purpose?
Liav said:Oh for sure. I've invested hundreds of thousands of plat into alts throughout my EQ career. I can still remember my Ranger twinked with a BoC/Fungi/36% haste belt shredding content during the Luclin/PoP era (which was my personal favorite era of EQ). I definitely see value in twinking and how it can be super fun and add a lot of replayability to old content. I spent more hours in Crushbone/Unrest/Paludal Caverns than I care to admit just for the fun of shredding mobs with amazing gear and making other players I group with envious.
Yup, Exactly, this is what I am hoping we get back in the game. This makes items have a long term value not just a "this expansion" value. I loved making ats and wrecking stuff sub 50 during the PoP/GoD era.
Siat said:Imagine the odd underwater encounter. Will something silly happen, like characters swimming in full plate armor? Worse, will they unequip that armor, put it in bag, then reequip it later? I hope these kinds of embarassing moments can be skipped.
I think "realistic" mechanics clash with good game design. I mean, it's a fantasy game with armor made out of dragon scales. Sometimes suspending the imagination for the sake of smoother gameplay is necessary, otherwise the genre couldn't exist.