Great power brings great responsibility. I feel our heavy nukers in Pantheon should be developed and balanced around this idea. In EQ, we had the freedom to spam cast huge nukes and lay down some serious burst damage like no other class. Yet at the same time, we had to exercise restraint, time our casts, spread out our damage so we didnt pull aggro, piss off the tank, run the cleric OOM, and ultimately get kicked from the group. There were also times when threat was firmly established and we could truly unload all of our awesome power. Mastering this responsibility is what separated the men from the boys, the good from the bad.
However, this gameplay mechanic has been lost to time in recent MMO's. The "skill" component has become who can play a perfect game of UI whack-a-mole for a sustained 15 minutes. How did we go so wrong? I dont want to play UI whack-a-mole. I want to play Pantheon. At what point did game developers feel we were no longer capable of handling such responsibility?
I made this thread to ask for that responsibility back. Do you agree with me?
Absolutely I agree. Glass Cannon comes to mind. You're free to blast as much as you want but youre gonna get chewed up and spit out if you dont manage your damage well. This was lost in part w/ the homogenization of classes which Pantheon is trying to steer away from. If every class is a dps class no class is a dps class.
I played and loved EQ but the same was also true of FFXI. As a BLM if you blast away too early even at low levels the monster would be right on you and youd probably be dead. I think it goes along w/ the risk/reward philosophy and I hope that all makes a return.
Glass cannon, absolutely. I loved the days of EQ when the difference between being a good wizard and a great wizard was mentally knowing exactly where that line was between max dps and pulling agro on a mob that was going to flip around off the tank and AE wipe the whole raid.
But with that being said, hopefully more tools for managing agro than spamming Concussion-like spells.
I'm ok with tools like concussion for agro management, but please dont dumb it down. I want the option, nay, the requirement that I use my brain to figure this out. I want it to be part of mastering your class. No UI elements to determine threat. Its something you learn by doing. This is where the challenge is at, and subsequently the fun. As an example, the game Myst doesnt give you big bold UI arrows showing you the answer to the puzzle. That would take the fun out of it. Figuring it out on your own is part of the journey and the path to becoming truly skilled with your class.
And on this note, I think this should apply to more than just the wizard. The ability to over-damage and subsequently over-agro should be a very harsh reality for many other classes, as should be the punishment for doing so. Opposed to modern day MMO's which makes tank threat so high that pulling agro is nearly impossible, and as a dps, your UI whack-a-mole skills determine your worth. And if the tank loses agro? Bad on him for being terrible at UI whack-a-mole, or not setting up his whack-a-mole buttons in the right order.
I firmly believe that balancing around the concept of responsible playing should be a cornerstone of Pantheon, and would add a level of skill and discipline that has been absent from modern MMO's.
I like this thread, and agree that aggro management should be a thing present for all classes. even cleric. as a cleric going oom was not the only reason to not overheal. overhealing could also cause the mob to aggro you. especially if you have a fairly high aggro rating from healing and then sit down to med. the precarious balancing act between being good at your job and being dead is one of the most fun aspects of playing group centric games.
I agree, as a mage in EQ you had to get the "feel" of what was too much and what was just enough. Depending also on relative strengths of people in the group. Some tanks would stick a monster to them like glue, no high amount of burst damage would peel the monster off, others, the second blast too soon would be too much.
It was the same way you could tell who was powerleved because they did not know how to play thier class or used inappropriate spells. You could tell and often was verified in private tells by others.
Manouk said:
I agree, as a mage in EQ you had to get the "feel" of what was too much and what was just enough. Depending also on relative strengths of people in the group. Some tanks would stick a monster to them like glue, no high amount of burst damage would peel the monster off, others, the second blast too soon would be too much.
It was the same way you could tell who was powerleved because they did not know how to play thier class or used inappropriate spells. You could tell and often was verified in private tells by others.
Definitely. When you first joined a group you didnt immediately know how much damage you could do or even how soon you could start. You had to work it out for yourself based on the group makeup and their abilities (not character abililites but the actual ability of the person behind the character in playing that class).
And yes, sit aggro was real and hopefully will be again! One more thing to manage and master and help to separate the good casters from the bad.
ArchMageSalamar said:
Manouk said:
I agree, as a mage in EQ you had to get the "feel" of what was too much and what was just enough. Depending also on relative strengths of people in the group. Some tanks would stick a monster to them like glue, no high amount of burst damage would peel the monster off, others, the second blast too soon would be too much.
It was the same way you could tell who was powerleved because they did not know how to play thier class or used inappropriate spells. You could tell and often was verified in private tells by others.
Definitely. When you first joined a group you didnt immediately know how much damage you could do or even how soon you could start. You had to work it out for yourself based on the group makeup and their abilities (not character abililites but the actual ability of the person behind the character in playing that class).
And yes, sit aggro was real and hopefully will be again! One more thing to manage and master and help to separate the good casters from the bad.
I couldnt agree more. I loved the meditate/sit/aggro mechanic in EQ. I couldnt count the number of times something went wrong in a group, and the cleric was OOM, but couldnt sit to meditate because they would pull aggro. These nail-biting moments really stick with you and something that is sorely lacking in modern MMO's.
All of these awesome gameplay mechanics we've discussed in this thread have absolutely nothing to do with rotations, character builds or test dummy DPS meter results. In the world we're describing, the thing that separates the good from the bad are the choices we make, not how fast we mash buttons.
I love examples, so here is another one. Playing a cleric in a good group can be quite a yawn at times, but when excrement hits the fan (and sooner or later it will), this is where the true heroes rise to the occasion. Too many mobs were pulled, and CC is having trouble getting them locked down. You have multiple group members that have seconds to live. You must balance quick heals and mana levels while watching your healing agro, praying you're making the right choices. The blood pumps and adrenaline surges and when the group comes out alive in the end, never is it more clear as to why you chose the cleric. The thanks and pats on the back from your group and the pride in what you just pulled off are directly related to the decisions you made in that moment. Although typically a thankless job, our big nukers are no different in this regard. At any point in time, we have the ability to royally screw things up or be heroes. But these conditions don't exist on accident. They need to be deliberately created.
My apologies for maybe coming across a bit fanatical about this topic, but this isnt the first time I've posted these sentiments. I've created similar threads during developement of EQ2, VG and Rift. While the threads were always well-received by the players, the type of game being developed did not align with these ideals. I hope Pantheon will be different.
It's not just the Wizard that becomes a better player with these mechanics, it's everyone! The CC who watches how the group is performing and manages the aggro swap with a quick mez or stun, the healer who tosses out a quick heal just as that mob spins and keeps the nuker alive and the tank who knows to save a taunt cooldown to counter that snap aggro. I used to tell my DPS to go all out so I could challenge my tanking abilites.
I love examples, so here is another one. Playing a cleric in a good group can be quite a yawn at times, but when excrement hits the fan (and sooner or later it will), this is where the true heroes rise to the occasion. Too many mobs were pulled, and CC is having trouble getting them locked down. You have multiple group members that have seconds to live. You must balance quick heals and mana levels while watching your healing agro, praying you're making the right choices. The blood pumps and adrenaline surges and when the group comes out alive in the end, never is it more clear as to why you chose the cleric. The thanks and pats on the back from your group and the pride in what you just pulled off are directly related to the decisions you made in that moment. Although typically a thankless job, our big nukers are no different in this regard. At any point in time, we have the ability to royally screw things up or be heroes. But these conditions don't exist on accident. They need to be deliberately created.
ex-ACT-ly, if it got crazy I would buy time for the CC, the healers and the fighters and the others by trying to grab as much aggro as possible with nukes, usually accompanied by my frantic yell in group "don't heal me!" and stepping away . Sometimes the ranger would say - "Manouk, Back up, now!", and the Fighter then shouting "Omnbpss!- which we understood was "on boss!" because we all knew what we all were doing and why and myself chose to sacrifice a death and exp loss (no biggie, can always get t back) if needed over the others, and the knowing satisfaction of dying, only to then find myself spinning around disoriented but still with the group! having been "purpled" by the cleric. Once I grabbed hold of my senses I almost slapped him- lol-in wasting a heal on me at that time. Had us in that situation exactly as you described with pats on the back and a "maybe we should try another spot" thoughts once the last monster was dispacthed followed by the smart-alec remark "well, I guess we can med up, now."
Dekaden said:Great power brings great responsibility. I feel our heavy nukers in Pantheon should be developed and balanced around this idea. In EQ, we had the freedom to spam cast huge nukes and lay down some serious burst damage like no other class. Yet at the same time, we had to exercise restraint, time our casts, spread out our damage so we didnt pull aggro, piss off the tank, run the cleric OOM, and ultimately get kicked from the group. There were also times when threat was firmly established and we could truly unload all of our awesome power. Mastering this responsibility is what separated the men from the boys, the good from the bad.
However, this gameplay mechanic has been lost to time in recent MMO's. The "skill" component has become who can play a perfect game of UI whack-a-mole for a sustained 15 minutes. How did we go so wrong? I dont want to play UI whack-a-mole. I want to play Pantheon. At what point did game developers feel we were no longer capable of handling such responsibility?
I made this thread to ask for that responsibility back. Do you agree with me?
I remember those days...heh if you didn't manage agro..before the tanks got a good toehold, you'd be one dead wizzie. :) Help me!! Help meeeee!! *runs around in circles!* lol
I couldn't agree more with the trend of this thread. The modern MMOs have ruined all aspects of have to play intelligently. If I want to smash buttons and mass damage I'll play Diablo of something like it. I want a game where you have to think, get a plan, and execute. A game where the classes have meaning and are useful in their own way if played right.
A VG monk laying in my 2 cents here - I'm with you 100%.
I miss the challenge of actually having to know the tank in my group, having to work out when I could time my burst combos to fit in with the aggro management so that I didn't strip aggro and get us all a quick trip to respawn.
I used to use trash mobs as aggro practice with a group before taking on a boss, not the repetitive races to see how fast we can clear.
This thread made me realise how much i miss MMOs..
I could tell how many years it's been since last i gave a **** about one, but you wouldn't believe me, lol
Anyway, i agree with the OP as well. Far as any class may be concerned, not just the wizie. Demand effort (ok, mentally here), withhold reward. Best way to go
After watching the pre-alpha stream, it seems Pantheon is (thus far) being developed in accord with this thread. I'm very happy to see that. Mont was pulling aggro if he casted too early or too often, indicating a need to pay attention to your actions or bad things can happen.
It's early yet and things could change, but the stream footage made me very happy indeed.
Dekaden said:Great power brings great responsibility. I feel our heavy nukers in Pantheon should be developed and balanced around this idea. In EQ, we had the freedom to spam cast huge nukes and lay down some serious burst damage like no other class. Yet at the same time, we had to exercise restraint, time our casts, spread out our damage so we didnt pull aggro, piss off the tank, run the cleric OOM, and ultimately get kicked from the group. There were also times when threat was firmly established and we could truly unload all of our awesome power. Mastering this responsibility is what separated the men from the boys, the good from the bad.
However, this gameplay mechanic has been lost to time in recent MMO's. The "skill" component has become who can play a perfect game of UI whack-a-mole for a sustained 15 minutes. How did we go so wrong? I dont want to play UI whack-a-mole. I want to play Pantheon. At what point did game developers feel we were no longer capable of handling such responsibility?
I made this thread to ask for that responsibility back. Do you agree with me?
Wizard here, I remember having to time my nukes so that the tank maintained agro, or..have the full agro on me. ;) Tactical gameplay...been missing that for some years now. :)
I agree Dekaden , Restraint and Responsiblity that comes with the power granted a wizard is very important, and that is how it should be.
Remember when you do screw up and pull some terrible thing's aggro on you, please hold still and take your beating so the tank can try to reestablish order while cussing you under his or her breath.
EQ warrior here.. but I had a wizzy friend(and hydra).. Got something to add:
Why did they nerf quad kiting?! Give wizzies the power to xp on non-named and farm tradeskill items alone in this way.. as a pure caster they should have the power to do stuff like this..
On the other extreme, give other classes great power to do their own unique stuff. Warrior being the extreme tank, they should be the extreme damage sponge.
All classes should fill an niche, be 'extreme' in one aspect.. so far the AMAs and podcasts with devs sound more like they are balancing all classes within the four roles (Tank, healing, dps, CC).. which is scarey(boring)..