Really like the different take on Gnomes, I have never really been fond of the standard tiny looking Gnome you see in most standard fantasy fiction, but this new lack of physical form and not as tiny as most other fantasy has me very interested in this race for the first time.
You guys also did a great job of taking away the comedy factor you get with most Gnome races.
Great work guys.
I actually really like the way the new gnomes look, too. It's ogirinal. I like the halflings as well, more sprite-y, one-with-nature looking. Although I cannot tell how tall the gnomes are supposed to be. They still may be shorter than all the other races and it's just a close up picture... won't know for sure until we see them standing side-by-side. Additionally, in EQOA I really liked how the gnomes were into clockwork annimation. The look on the gnome concept made me think of that. I don't know if that's how it was supposed to be portrayed, but I loved it. Well done, Pantheon. Can't wait to start seeing in-game character models!!!
I like the smallness of the the traditional gnome races, personally. At first was a little taken-aback by this new take on gnomes. But then the lore grew on me and I'm quite comfortable with the idea of gnomes in Pantheon.
However, because this incarnation of gnomes seems so serious in nature, I may look at halflings as my race of choice here. They may have the 'quirkiness' that attracted me so strongly to gnomes of old.
Uggghhh. Waiting to see these races come to life on my screen is killing me.
I was excited to see the new take on the gnomes and halflings as well. Gnomes were always funny and I had an alt, but the halflings always looked so lame that I couldn't force myself to have any alts that looked like them even for the xp bonus :D. I have been really impressed with the new art and website. Thanks for bringing the awesome and congrats on getting the additional funding!
I've always played gnomes because of their personality, and I've always (tried) played into it. The release of the gnome concept was dissapointing to me, not that I don't like Pantheon's take on it, because they do look neato, but gnome was always my race and the story I gave mine was silly.
The more I look at the races the more I favor the gnomes. I think their back story is one of the best (imo). And the look they were given is fascinating. Erie and wonderous in a kinda creepy-cute way. Sort of reminds me of Goblins from XI like in my avatar only they have gas masks instead of this slightly morbid looking "death mask". I just need to see if a rogue class is possible, because by the description I doubt any magical class will be an issue.
Gnome Powah >=D.
I am looking forward to seeing the rest of the races on live stream or through screenshots, I think you saw only two races which were human and elf? Gnomes have always been the coolest and that usually have some great backstories from what I have seen in many other MMO's. Let my Gnome Necromancer come back =D
I love playing the small races, I think my best experience was a Shadowblade Kobald in DAoC. Second favorite was my thief in WoW, who was also a gnome. Had a Gnome in Vanguard, but he didn't feel quirky enough for me. I roleplayed back in the day, and my lil Kobald was as nutty as a bad christmas fruitcake. I currently have a few little Asurans in GW2, but they just aren't the same. (besides which, I really dislike the theif class in GW2...)
All in all, I really like where they are going with the Gnome race in this game, the mystical whispy energy is very compelling.
I'm loving the new Gnomes! I always found EQ Gnomes a bit too far on the goofy side, and we really already had that with Halflings. I'm looking forward to a Gnome Wizard main!!
Gadgets said:I've always played gnomes because of their personality, and I've always (tried) played into it. The release of the gnome concept was dissapointing to me, not that I don't like Pantheon's take on it, because they do look neato, but gnome was always my race and the story I gave mine was silly.
I share your feelings and as a Gnome player in most MMOs, I have also been disappointed both by the "Gnomes" in Pantheon and by the lore .
The most important question is "Why Gnomes ?" .
Indeed what do these incorporeal, magical beings have in common with what has alwyas been called "a Gnome" ? They might be called "Wisps", "Ethereals" , "Phantoms" ... names which all describe what they are . A Gnome is an OPPOSITE of such beings - materialist , tinkerer , earth bound, treasure gatherer , knowledge seeker .
The word Gnome itself is coming from the greek "gnomé" meaning "intelligence" and "judgement" but also "common sense" and "knowledge" .
I am all for finding new ways for representing Gnomes providing that the result is a Gnome . What happened here is like if Ogres were designed 1 meter tall with long beards and full of kindness . It would be original indeed but the result could be called anything but an Ogre .
As for the lore, the little we can read seems to have been really rushed out with little regard for consistency and credibility .
So we have a race living on a hollow planet with a small star at the center . OK .
Following a myth they dig and break the planet's shell . Why not .
The star in the center infuses metal ores (Resivore) with magics and the race starts to use it . We still follow .
But now they divide in 2 factions - one, Archanos, wants to continue to use the magics (why not ?) and the other, Prophain, "foresaw disaster" (we are never told what disaster and why) .
Then the Archanos put the Prophain on a rock and sent it to orbit the star for no particular reason . Obviously the Prophain were no threat for them so why to exile them ? And if they really were a threat (one can't see how) then the Archanos would simply anihilate them with magics .
But the Prophain use the spent Resivore of their rock to build a spire which transforms in loaded Resivore what the Archanos ignore . It is unbelieavable that the intensive Resivore users, the Archanos, could have ignored this fact but for some strange reason they do . Besides we don't know why the Prophain would bother to build a Resivore spire either, especially because they opposed the Resivore use first place .
Anyway .
So now the Archanos start to use more and more of the power . We don't know why they do it and what they create with all this power .
But they somehow draw more than the star delivers (how is that possible ?) and the star becomes unstable and starts to kill the Archanos. For an unknown reason it doesn't kill the Prophain despite the fact that their rock is much closer to the star than the Archanos are .
Then one of these star discharges makes a hole in the planet's shell and the Prophain steer their rock through the hole to escape . Well this is thrice inconsistent .
First if the Archanos exiled them to orbit it is because they knew that there was no way to leave the orbit. So there could be no "steering" .
Second if the Archanos oversaw some means of steering then nothing would have prevented the Prophain to steer the rock immediately to the shell and escape outside regardless of what the star was doing .
Third is that we never hear about the Archanos again despite the fact that if a hole had been made in the shell and many Archanos killed, they would have gone outside long before the Prophain .
But the worst is the end where nothing makes sense .
So the Prophain are back to the planet's surface where they have been living for uncounted generation so nothing threatens them anymore . Perhaps the Archanos could but God knows (we certainly don't) what they are doing at this moment .
Yet we learn that "they must abandon their mortal flesh or perish. " Where does that come from ? It is quite an extraordinarily strong statement that demands an extraordinary evidence . The threat can't be the star because they did quite well when they were very near to it on orbit and now they are far from it with the thick planet's shell between them and the star . If the threat was the Archanos, then they couldn't escape it by going incorporeal because this couldn't stop the Archanos . If it was something else altogether, we have not a clue what and how they could have escaped it by going incorporeal .
Last we are told that some Juthe (probably a Prophain) wrote : "This garment, woven from the hallowed mineral, was meant to further our survival as we drew nearer to Elos ..." .
But they never "drew nearer to Elos" ! They did exactly the opposite - they drew not only FARTHER but they put the protection of the planet's shell between them and Elos .
I am afraid that the race which has nothing Gnomish will still be called Gnomes in the game at release and I will regret it.
But at least the lore should be rewritten so that at minima there are no contradictions and inconsistencies in the story .
Deadshade said:The most important question is "Why Gnomes ?" .
Indeed what do these incorporeal, magical beings have in common with what has alwyas been called "a Gnome" ? They might be called "Wisps", "Ethereals" , "Phantoms" ... names which all describe what they are . A Gnome is an OPPOSITE of such beings - materialist , tinkerer , earth bound, treasure gatherer , knowledge seeker .
Gnomes as you've come to know them are materialists, tinkerers, ect. This is a brand new IP. It is well within the developers' creative rights to re-envision a race, including by paying homage to their roots by keeping the name "Gnome".
Deadshade said:The word Gnome itself is coming from the greek "gnomé" meaning "intelligence" and "judgement" but also "common sense" and "knowledge" .
Deadshade said:
I am all for finding new ways for representing Gnomes providing that the result is a Gnome . What happened here is like if Ogres were designed 1 meter tall with long beards and full of kindness . It would be original indeed but the result could be called anything but an Ogre .
Deadshade said:
But now they divide in 2 factions - one, Archanos, wants to continue to use the magics (why not ?) and the other, Prophain, "foresaw disaster" (we are never told what disaster and why) .
Deadshade said:
Then the Archanos put the Prophain on a rock and sent it to orbit the star for no particular reason .
"for no particular reason" for reasons unknown to you as of now.
Deadshade said:
Obviously the Prophain were no threat for them so why to exile them ?
Deadshade said:
And if they really were a threat (one can't see how) then the Archanos would simply anihilate them with magics .
Deadshade said:
But the Prophain use the spent Resivore of their rock to build a spire which transforms in loaded Resivore what the Archanos ignore . It is unbelieavable that the intensive Resivore users, the Archanos, could have ignored this fact but for some strange reason they do .
Deadshade said:
Besides we don't know why the Prophain would bother to build a Resivore spire either, especially because they opposed the Resivore use first place .
Desperate times call for desperate measures? Maybe their surivial depended on it. If a bunch of vegetarians are stranded on an island where bacon grows on trees, I'm fairly confident a good portion of them would eat some bacon to survive.
Deadshade said:
So now the Archanos start to use more and more of the power . We don't know why they do it and what they create with all this power .
Deadshade said:
But they somehow draw more than the star delivers (how is that possible ?) and the star becomes unstable and starts to kill the Archanos. For an unknown reason it doesn't kill the Prophain despite the fact that their rock is much closer to the star than the Archanos are .
Deadshade said:
First if the Archanos exiled them to orbit it is because they knew that there was no way to leave the orbit. So there could be no "steering" .
Deadshade said:
Second if the Archanos oversaw some means of steering then nothing would have prevented the Prophain to steer the rock immediately to the shell and escape outside regardless of what the star was doing .
Deadshade said:
Third is that we never hear about the Archanos again despite the fact that if a hole had been made in the shell and many Archanos killed, they would have gone outside long before the Prophain .
Deadshade said:
So the Prophain are back to the planet's surface where they have been living for uncounted generation so nothing threatens them anymore . Perhaps the Archanos could but God knows (we certainly don't) what they are doing at this moment .Yet we learn that "they must abandon their mortal flesh or perish. " Where does that come from? It is quite an extraordinarily strong statement that demands an extraordinary evidence.
Deadshade said:
The threat can't be the star because they did quite well when they were very near to it on orbit and now they are far from it with the thick planet's shell between them and the star . If the threat was the Archanos, then they couldn't escape it by going incorporeal because this couldn't stop the Archanos . If it was something else altogether, we have not a clue what and how they could have escaped it by going incorporeal .
Deadshade said:
Last we are told that some Juthe (probably a Prophain) wrote : "This garment, woven from the hallowed mineral, was meant to further our survival as we drew nearer to Elos ..." .But they never "drew nearer to Elos" ! They did exactly the opposite - they drew not only FARTHER but they put the protection of the planet's shell between them and Elos .
Deadshade said:I am afraid that the race which has nothing Gnomish will still be called Gnomes in the game at release and I will regret it.
But at least the lore should be rewritten so that at minima there are no contradictions and inconsistencies in the story .
The sheer fact that we both spent so much time diving into this lore is a testament to its greatness. Rather than constrain your lore interpretations to preconcieved notions, let your creative juices flow and generate your own answers - and then definitely share them with us! I love this kind of back and forth and I appreciate your detail. This is a fantastic origination story for an extremely interesting race.
No it is not Gnomes as I (and only I) know them .
It is Gnomes like everybody who has used this word before has known them with slight variations .
Gnomes simply are not incorporeal and have never been . On the other hand there are incorporeal beings but they are never called Gnomes .
There are limits to uses of words and these limits are when words start to be confusing and finish by arbitrarily designing very different things so that they loose any meaning .
Again, anybody may design a 1 m tall, peaceful and friendly race and call them Ogres . Yet it doesn't invalidate the fact that the word is poorly chosen because there are better and more accurate words designing 1 m tall peacefull and friendly races . I simply can't accept that inappropriate words are used to design otherwise very well defined things because that always leads to bad communication and bad understanding .
As for the rest, you basically say the same thing I said . The lore is fuzzy and inconsistent . You give always the same reason "There is or must be probably a consistent explanation but we don't know it"
Well perhaps . And if somebody reads a lore book where he doesn't understand every second sentence because he "doesn't know something" what is necessary for understanding then everybody agrees that it is a poorly written book . Poesy is something different because it adresses emotions and not information about lore . But I am not analyzing poesy here .
The problem is that you actually didn't answer or explain any of the inconsistencies that I pointed out .
Just 3 examples :
"A hole through the crust of Stormona which could accomidate the size of Skyhold would have to first be created. If the Prophain tried to create it, the Archanos would have seen them and stopped it. The weakened star + the large hole presented the Prophain with a perfect opportunity."
Obviously if they could steer Skyhold, they don't need a hole . They just leave the orbit and get off Skyhold when they reach the inner shell . From there they get to the surface by standard means . Besides it is contradictory to say "Archanos could have stopped them" (if they try to leave the orbit) and "Archanos could not stop them" (when they left the orbit) .
"Again, incomplete lore != illogical. There could very well be Archanos on Terminus or even the reminents of Stormona. We will have to wait and explore."
Illogical . We are told only Prophain were on Skyhold - it was actually its only purpose . And only Skyhold arrived on Terminus . This is not incomplete, this is explicitely written . Only possible conclusion is that there are no Archanos on Terminus . I draw only conclusion of what has been explicitely written and add no hypothesis of mine . If there should be Archanos on Terminus then one of the previous statements is violated . That is again called contradiction .
Besides there is a potential contradiction with the Prophain being efficient magic wielders . Indeed what defined them was that they opposed magic use while the Archanos were supporting it . The lore is extremely fuzzy and confusing regarding the opinions of both factions concerning magic so that I call that only a potential contradiction . Actually if their abilities were equal to the Archanos, they would escape their prison in seconds by just doing in reverse what the Archanos did . So everything we are told implies that the Prophain were significantly weaker in magic use than the Archanos and on top they had some, not yet explained prejudices against the use of magics . Definitely more must be told about this issue .
"Juthe was most likely refering to the Gnomes intial decent from the surface of Stormona. We know that the Gnome's bodies were being affected by the increased radiation during their decent "Their skin, too dense from the cold of the outer surface, left their bodies faint from the heat of Elos' rays." They probably developed Maq'esh during their "descent stretched over many generations". As the star collapsed, they quickly learned that Maq'esh could be repurposed to keep energy in, not out."
This doesn't make any sense .
The time line was : going inside the shell -> going very near on orbit -> going outside .
Then we are told that it was during this 3rd sequence that "they must abandon their mortal flesh or perish. "
So they obviously didn't develop Maq'Esh earlier because then they would have abandonned their mortal flesh earlier. If the Juthe quote referred to the first phase then Maq'Esh was developped during Phase 1 and ALL Gnomes whould have abandonned their mortal flesh and none would perish . Yet we are told the contrary "As her unbridled rays struck the inner crust, many of the Gnomes were consumed."
This is again a contradiction unless the Maq'Esh was developped during the last phase what everything in the text suggests . And then they were not drawing NEAR but AWAY .
So whatever the interpretation, this part of the lore doesn't make sense . And I don't even mention the problem that it is illogical to be in greater peril FAR from the star and protected by the shell than being very close on orbit and unprotected .
The sheer fact that we both spent so much time diving into this lore is a testament to its greatness. Rather than constrain your lore interpretations to preconcieved notions, let your creative juices flow and generate your own answers - and then definitely share them with us! I love this kind of back and forth and I appreciate your detail. This is a fantastic origination story for an extremely interesting race.
Well as for me I spent some time because I am partial to Gnomes and intended to play a Gnome like I did in every game since 99 . And my post is not a testament to the "greatness" of this particular lore .
If anything it is a testament to the surprise about so many contradictions, confusions and inconsistencies in the text . I am really sure that this has been written too fast without any deep thought and with no critical proof reading . No, I can't provide my own answers because, precisely, they would be my own . Lore is the fundament of the (any) game so that only the developpers can write it - anything I could do would be only guesses that might be as well right or wrong .
So I restrain myself to just read what we are given , abstain of any aditionnal hypothesis and verify whether what we are given makes sense or not .
However I agree with you that the race is indeed interesting even if the lore is bad in the present too approximative draft stage . I don't take exception with the race, I take exception with calling those incorporeal creatures Gnomes what they definitely are not . Well this is not very important because it only means that I won't play this race because I don't like playing incorporeal creatures and as there are no Gnomes in the game, I will have to select something else .
Probably a Dwarf . The lore even if short contains no contradictions and is consistent . And the Dwarves in Pantheon are clearly dwarwish and deserve their name :)
@ Deadshade
I have to agree with Syntro here. You are rather fiercely attacking something that cant really be attacked. All you arguments are based on your interpretation of the Lore. In some places you assume a lot, others it just might not be clear. The most suprising thing to me is the lack of creative thinking. If I thought about it hard enough I could come up with several solutions to the "problems" you have with the lore. Im not sure why you think the lore from a mysterious and arcane alien race should be totally 100% clear either. Also some of your accusations about the lore being hastily written and without any deep thought is a bit insulting to the lore writers is it not? Ill have you know Ive read and re-read the lore of all the races serveral times and the Gnome lore is still the best and most attractive to me. I think what this is really about is the re-design of the Gnomes physical appearance. You liked the more traditional look, and I can appreciate that. But I also think we wouldnt even be talking about how many holes you think are in the lore if the race was named Ethereals, instead of Gnomes. I really wouldnt care if they did rename them, but I think its well within the rights of the devs to re-invent and be creative. And I infact encourage it because I love fantasy but am a bit put out by the over attachment to traditional fantasy sometimes. And frakly I love this interpretation of the Gnomes and their awesome lore. Who knows maybe the devs will go back and flesh out the lore (not that I think it needs to be) a little further, but I dont want them to change the lore and I damn sure dont want them to change the look! And if it ends up you just cant stand these new gnomes and have to play a different race, I wish you the best of luck in finding a race you can get on board with.
Deadshade said:
No it is not Gnomes as I (and only I) know them.
Deadshade said:
It is Gnomes like everybody who has used this word before has known them with slight variation
Deadshade said:
Again, anybody may design a 1 m tall, peaceful and friendly race and call them Ogres . Yet it doesn't invalidate the fact that the word is poorly chosen because there are better and more accurate words designing 1 m tall peacefull and friendly races . I simply can't accept that inappropriate words are used to design otherwise very well defined things because that always leads to bad communication and bad understanding .
Deadshade said:
And if somebody reads a lore book where he doesn't understand every second sentence because he "doesn't know something" what is necessary for understanding then everybody agrees that it is a poorly written book . Poesy is something different because it adresses emotions and not information about lore . But I am not analyzing poesy here
Deadshade said:
"A hole through the crust of Stormona which could accomidate the size of Skyhold would have to first be created. If the Prophain tried to create it, the Archanos would have seen them and stopped it. The weakened star + the large hole presented the Prophain with a perfect opportunity."Obviously if they could steer Skyhold, they don't need a hole . They just leave the orbit and get off Skyhold when they reach the inner shell . From there they get to the surface by standard means . Besides it is contradictory to say "Archanos could have stopped them" (if they try to leave the orbit) and "Archanos could not stop them" (when they left the orbit) .
Deadshade said:
"Again, incomplete lore != illogical. There could very well be Archanos on Terminus or even the reminents of Stormona. We will have to wait and explore."Illogical . We are told only Prophain were on Skyhold - it was actually its only purpose . And only Skyhold arrived on Terminus . This is not incomplete, this is explicitely written . Only possible conclusion is that there are no Archanos on Terminus . I draw only conclusion of what has been explicitely written and add no hypothesis of mine . If there should be Archanos on Terminus then one of the previous statements is violated . That is again called contradiction .
Deadshade said:
Besides there is a potential contradiction with the Prophain being efficient magic wielders . Indeed what defined them was that they opposed magic use while the Archanos were supporting it . The lore is extremely fuzzy and confusing regarding the opinions of both factions concerning magic so that I call that only a potential contradiction . Actually if their abilities were equal to the Archanos, they would escape their prison in seconds by just doing in reverse what the Archanos did . So everything we are told implies that the Prophain were significantly weaker in magic use than the Archanos and on top they had some, not yet explained prejudices against the use of magics . Definitely more must be told about this issue .
Deadshade said:
So they obviously didn't develop Maq'Esh earlier because then they would have abandonned their mortal flesh earlier. If the Juthe quote referred to the first phase then Maq'Esh was developped during Phase 1 and ALL Gnomes whould have abandonned their mortal flesh and none would perish . Yet we are told the contrary "As her unbridled rays struck the inner crust, many of the Gnomes were consumed."
I have to agree with Amsai and Syntro here, AND the lore writer is creating the race lore, world lore or providing us with a base to pique our interest. I have no critiques at this time, because the lore and our world we want to test and eventually adventure in...isn't fully formed yet. And how do you critique something that isn't complete. I would wait, (still employing my suspension of disbelief) and see where this goes. I have a hunch we'll be pleasantly surprised. I see a lot of imagination at work here, and happy with that. And I will STILL play this new generation of Gnome. :)
