One of common problems in MMOs are people who only grind levels outside, in the safest, simplest and quickest camps they can find, and then when they get to the level where they join raids or some complex group content, they lack necessary skills, causing problems, up to and including raid wipeouts.
So how about that on every 5 or so levels there is an additional quest or condition one has to fulfill to get to the next level (even although he has the experience points)? Say, design half a dozen quests of the same level, each including fighting bosses deep at the bottom of one dungeon or another, and for the level-up you have to finish any 2 out of 6 available quests?
Make the bosses drop a Token of Experience and turn 2 of them in, or design it however you want, but group/dungeon experience has to be mandatory.
Repeat this every 5 levels and by the time one is at max level, everyone will be guaranteed to have at least a passable knowledge of his role in groups/raids.
You don't think lack of gear and/or gold won't force people into going for harder targets? Take the most resilient, soloable class and you're still only going to be able to level so far. Even mundane creatures of higher level become very dangerous and out of scale for a soloer to handle alone I think. And likely these only drop mats, money items and an occasional rare item useful to anyone. If the camp in question drops a quest item or Lore item/s, the person camping it won't likely have an issue with allowing someone else to grab up the items they can't carry more than one of. And some people learn to use their characters in very innovative ways. If a camp provides them with enjoyment and XP to boot I'd ask to join them or just move on. Hard-coding stop-gaps like that on top of the inherent ones that already exist seems kinda overkill to me but if done right I think they could work.
Most guilds have a higher level person of that same class, a mentor or at least someone who can guide them through what they need to do. And you won't be able to do much about those that sell off their accounts to others. I don't know how someone could play an EQ Chanter solo, in a group or in a raid unless they went through the levels and learned what their spells actually did.
Our problems will occur when people have 6 accounts and are running a camp or area with them to pharm gold and/or items. Those are the situations that concern me the most. People that do that for a living will never leave those areas unless there was some kind of stop gap that stopped the creatures from dropping something at all.
I have felt myself, if the leveling curve is steep, as in you can't just zip through the game no matter how hard core you are, then gear becomes more important at a given level. This in turn makes dungeons more "mandatory" for every day pugs since most of the gear at level will be from the harder mobs. One of the problems in recent years is the XP curve has been almost non existent. You can literally sit in those "outside camp" or do basic quests for basic gear and go from 1-level cap in weeks if not days. When this happens gear while leveling becomes almost irrelevant since you almost out level it as soon as you get it. If you look back (and I hate to keep using it as an example but....) to the original EQ the xp curve was steep very steep, I know lots that it took 6 Months to reach the cap, this meant though that gear became more important at the level because you might have it for awhile. So people would farm places like Guk for both XP AND gear.
If the curve is slow enough and people need the gear the gear to level then people will flock to those places without being "forced" to by means of a quest. I know I beat the drum a lot but I think slower curves are better in a MMO as long as there is content. I have played game recently where with 12x's boosts and what not you are at the cap in days and the game just becomes a race to the cap to play the "end" game. It makes me wonder if they make leveling so easy why do they bother with it at all. Just make a game where there is one level, you have all the abilities and you just raid. Otherwise make the journey to the cap challenging and enjoyable and then the end game can be another game in itself when you get there.
Redwolf said:
Our problems will occur when people have 6 accounts and are running a camp or area with them to pharm gold and/or items. Those are the situations that concern me the most. People that do that for a living will never leave those areas unless there was some kind of stop gap that stopped the creatures from dropping something at all.
One of the solutions I would like to see for this is some interesting mechanics added to all "boss" mobs no matter the level. Something like he curses all the members of the group with a different "cruse" and if you dont get to a certain spot corresponding to your individual curse then the group wipes. Getting creative like that could severely limit those who box as far as farming boss mobs and at the same time can make grouping more fun and interesting at all levels. It would be hard to write a boxing script, if not impossible that would be able to read a curse and then send the toon to a certain location as long as the locations moved too.
Aethor said:
One of common problems in MMOs are people who only grind levels outside, in the safest, simplest and quickest camps they can find, and then when they get to the level where they join raids or some complex group content, they lack necessary skills, causing problems, up to and including raid wipeouts.
So how about that on every 5 or so levels there is an additional quest or condition one has to fulfill to get to the next level (even although he has the experience points)? Say, design half a dozen quests of the same level, each including fighting bosses deep at the bottom of one dungeon or another, and for the level-up you have to finish any 2 out of 6 available quests?
Make the bosses drop a Token of Experience and turn 2 of them in, or design it however you want, but group/dungeon experience has to be mandatory.
Repeat this every 5 levels and by the time one is at max level, everyone will be guaranteed to have at least a passable knowledge of his role in groups/raids.
They actually plan to have a class Achievement System (think that's what they called it) that does exactly what you are asking. From the round tables early this year I believe they said the plan thus far is to actually have each class complete certain objectives every ~10 levels. At a certain point, those achievements must be met before one is able to continue gaining experience. I believe the idea is to do precisely what you are saying: get everyone exploring the world and proving yourself worthy of further advancement.
The need for gear can do the same, assuming both of the following conditions are true:
- That the content really requires you to have good gear, and does not let you win half-naked or in total junk
- That good gear can be obtained ONLY in difficult, complex places, like dungeons, and ONLY in groups.
As an example of how not to do it you can take WoW or most of MMOs that came after it.
In these MMOs, they intentionally made it so you can level 1 to max outdoor, without ever having to go into a dungeon, and you don't need even intermediate gear - what to speak of really good gear - to do it. And since outdoor quests always yielded items good enough (and group outdoor quests yielded even better) to get you to the next tier, you could run 1-max without ever doing anything else.
On the other side, in EQ 1, you could get some rusty swords, fine steel if you save the money and buy from someone, bronze armor if you were lucky or bought it, and all of that was really junk, and the only way to get decent items was to get into groups and do serious content.
If the game has such a natural limiting factor, then it can work without my proposed semi-artificial limit. But it wouldn't hurt to have such a limit anyway - if the people will anyway go into dungeons, then they will be able to complete such quests along the way.
Some really good points in these posts so many so I don't want to quote them all. Here is my view.
2 schools of thought for me-
1- Easier level curve with time sinks in gearing/questing/raiding at max level. Typically this ends with people gobbling up all things left to boredom by the end of the first tier raid content.
2- Steep leveling curve where the best (speed in leveling/gear/environment) way to level is group oriented. Where gear matters at ALL levels not just at max level. Making raids viable AS leveling tools before you ever hit max level. When you get to max level you now need to gear/raid/quests/work AA's.
To me the second way is the best. I feel a steep leveling curve helps people learn their class before they are to the point where the heavy raiding portion hits. EQ was like this in the early days. I still remember lvl 40 as my shaman when someone said you have a spell to slow these mobs attacks... I was like "WTF I do?" it was in the low level runs, where mayhem broke out, where trains happened, where tanks got pummeled I learned to fine toon my Shaman.
A steep leveling curve can be a game killer though IF you do not make it fun, rich with content and make each class feel unique in the process. Hell levels in todays day and age will kill the game. "Keep a steep curve but make it fun and PEOPLE will come!"
Xan
Xanier said:
Some really good points in these posts so many so I don't want to quote them all. Here is my view.
2 schools of thought for me-
1- Easier level curve with time sinks in gearing/questing/raiding at max level. Typically this ends with people gobbling up all things left to boredom by the end of the first tier raid content.
2- Steep leveling curve where the best (speed in leveling/gear/environment) way to level is group oriented. Where gear matters at ALL levels not just at max level. Making raids viable AS leveling tools before you ever hit max level. When you get to max level you now need to gear/raid/quests/work AA's.
To me the second way is the best. I feel a steep leveling curve helps people learn their class before they are to the point where the heavy raiding portion hits. EQ was like this in the early days. I still remember lvl 40 as my shaman when someone said you have a spell to slow these mobs attacks... I was like "WTF I do?" it was in the low level runs, where mayhem broke out, where trains happened, where tanks got pummeled I learned to fine toon my Shaman.
A steep leveling curve can be a game killer though IF you do not make it fun, rich with content and make each class feel unique in the process. Hell levels in todays day and age will kill the game. "Keep a steep curve but make it fun and PEOPLE will come!"
Xan
The second option (steep yet fun) is the only way to do this. Rush to end game just doesn't work. Besides that, if the journey is actually fun and there is enough to accomplish to keep people's attention, there shouldn't be a reason to rush.
Honestly if "steep" leveling curve doesn't mean months of grinding for the most hardcore, it won't bode well.
I agree Dull.
I don't want to do the time tested bring up a current game thing here, but, yes I do want to: )
I think over time the reason why WoW is dying out (outside the more obvious things) is that it continues trying to reach a casual crowd but the core of the game are core to hardcore players these days and when you make everything so easily accessible and, beacause one subscribes to because you bought the game you deserve to see everything(without real effort put into seeing it) the game explodes good then turns around and deflates to bad.
One thing Brad posted in a blog a long time ago in reflection on vanguard was that the mistake was trying to please to wide a gap of player base. Pantheon is being made for a specific niche, which thanks to EQ and especially WoW, that player base has grown significantly over the last 15 years and that is the core to hard core players. Steep curve, rich in content and purpose will be a journey worth traveling.
When I read these forums I rarely hear about expansion 3, 4 , 5, 6 and so on in EQ I hear lots of story's about killing Sand Giants, orcs, blackburrow asking for the spell SoW..... all these things we remember the most were our journey.
Xan
I don't like this idea at all. I want to be free to level up any way that I see fit. Usually I look for the most efficient way possible, so if the game is meant to be geared towards dungeons and grouping then that will likely also be the most efficient way to level and there won't be a need to force people into it. Also, FFXIV sort of did this with it's main quest progression, and sometimes finding a group to do the required dungeon would take a very long time once most people are no longer in that level range. It became a huge waste of time to do something that was required in order to move further in the main quest.
Xanier said:. Steep curve, rich in content and purpose will be a journey worth traveling.When I read these forums I rarely hear about expansion 3, 4 , 5, 6 and so on in EQ I hear lots of story's about killing Sand Giants, orcs, blackburrow asking for the spell SoW..... all these things we remember the most were our journey.
Xan
This is why I like a steeper curve too, and yes I feel it should be a "sand box" so that people can feel free to get that xp any way they want, grinding groups or traveling and exploring all the dungeons in a level range. The leveling curve is what imho creates the longevity of a game. If its all handed to you on a platter then you have less memories and no emotional/time investment. So once you kill that last "raid mob" on your umpteenth alt " its like ok let me go play something else till the next expansion".
If there is anywhere near the content there was in Vanguard then it shouldn't feel like a grind at all, The sheer amount of play throughs I had to do just to see each of the dungeons and areas at level was incredible. Between 3 continents and then different areas on some continents. Imagine if you had the time in each level range to travel and farm several dungeons for gear, spells and abilities. Give me a game where I can travel, level and create in game memories with friends on my way to raiding and I am sold. And I am hoping Pantheon holds to those values and creates that game for us.
Amsai said:
It is a worry about people moving on and having no one to level with. Im sure some people will do alts but that will only be for so long. But what happens to a newb say 5 or 10 years down the road. Do we dumb down content and increase xp? I hope not. But not sure what game mechanics can help in that regard. I have seen things like XIs level sync system and similar things in other games. But that usually only works out with guild members or friends. It definetely gets back to an older thread I remember about keeping zones and content relevant. Thoughts?
That could be a concern, but honestly if the game is thriving that well 5-10 years from now that, that many new people are still coming in then its a good concern to have to have . One way is to perhaps have newer players urged to join newer servers that should in theory have a younger character player base, still running new toons, alts and the like. Even call them progression servers when they start or something to get those that are nostalgic to reroll. Hopefully too some of the mid ranged guilds can use grouping with newer players as a way of recruiting. I have seen that a few times. No real hard and fast solution I can think of that wouldnt be game breaking or something "farmers" would abuse, but again that would be a good problem for us to have to be addressing should it arise :)