I've noticed something recently about content that players consider grindy. A lot of people dislike grindy content with good reason. Something for developers and others to think about it though is this;
There are plenty of times where leveling up you have long grindy quests that require many days to finish and require lots of baddies to kill (in VG the Celestine Wardship armor questline and swamp armor were both very grindy). The difference I believe is that while leveling up to the level cap these types of long grindy quests don't feel as grindy because you are progressing your character at the same time. Once you hit level cap and start to hit these types of quests you no longer have that sense of progression to help alleviate the 'grind' and thus you feel these certain types of quests are more tedious.
Someone mentioned PotA and SoD from VG in another post saying once they got to SoD in felt too grindy and again, with good reason. But what can be done to counter this tedious feeling of grinding? In VG's case I believe the grindy content was due to mostly the lack of content being rolled out towards the end. Devs were trying to give players something to keep them occupied but with limited resources and manpower they were forced to include 'grindy' content as opposed to a variety of content.
Just curious about the thoughts of others when it comes to 'the grind'. I feel a lot of good can come out of this for the devs if players actually talked about their likes and dislikes of the grind.
For me, the harder and slower (many will say 'grindier') it is to gain experience and level up, the better. I would describe what I was doing to someone on a particular night as 'grinding' but it was never in a derogatory sense. Some of my fondest memories were of being in 'grind groups', conversing with my group and forging friendships while battling and recovering between fights.
I'm speaking with EQ1 in mind, I only played Vanguard the first year it came out. I'm not much a crafter, but the crafting system in EQ1 sure seems like that would have been a unpleasant grind. And one thing I really find no fun in, is being at max level and everyday doing daily quests, which take up most of my playtime, and then logout. Everyday. Hopefully nothing like this is in Pantheon.
I am perfectly fine with some grind, I don't like it when a game puts so much emphasis on going to max level immediately and treating the leveling curve as fodder and or a tutorial. Let leveling take a good amount of time and offer plenty of fun things to do along the way (include leveling in this).
Somewhat more on point, the times I tend to feel like grinding is bad is when its reward is utterly useless for the effort (this is a very bad habit of Final Fantasy XIV, all of the stuff that takes any time to obtain is almost entirely purely cosmetic) and or when it feels extremely arbitrary. To kindof explain the later reason listed above, its when the grindy content feels dislocated from anything (it doesn't feel like a quest or journey or maybe even related at all) like it was just put there to slow you down. I don't mind stuff taking a while but I want that to have meaning.
NoobieDoo said:
I've noticed something recently about content that players consider grindy. A lot of people dislike grindy content with good reason. Something for developers and others to think about it though is this;
There are plenty of times where leveling up you have long grindy quests that require many days to finish and require lots of baddies to kill (in VG the Celestine Wardship armor questline and swamp armor were both very grindy). The difference I believe is that while leveling up to the level cap these types of long grindy quests don't feel as grindy because you are progressing your character at the same time. Once you hit level cap and start to hit these types of quests you no longer have that sense of progression to help alleviate the 'grind' and thus you feel these certain types of quests are more tedious.
Someone mentioned PotA and SoD from VG in another post saying once they got to SoD in felt too grindy and again, with good reason. But what can be done to counter this tedious feeling of grinding? In VG's case I believe the grindy content was due to mostly the lack of content being rolled out towards the end. Devs were trying to give players something to keep them occupied but with limited resources and manpower they were forced to include 'grindy' content as opposed to a variety of content.
Just curious about the thoughts of others when it comes to 'the grind'. I feel a lot of good can come out of this for the devs if players actually talked about their likes and dislikes of the grind.
You just nailed it on the head from my perspective. I did Celestine Ward multiple times on multiple alts and it was fine same with Darguns Tomb weapon and some other quests. I only had 1 toon in Pota gear and 1 partial and was stuck on the sisters event because I am a slacker lol.
Progression is the key for me and always has been. VG was awesome and my only complaint was the long grinds after max level and not much new content. That said it is a testament to the quality content the game had to keep me there for over 7 years.
One thing I loved about EQ was the expansions, especially the early ones.
Gadgets said:
I have no ill will towards grinding exp/camps/rare drops as long as its not buttons im grinding. I dont have the attention span or desire to sit in a group and worry about doing a dozen counter attacks and combos. Give me an auto attack, a handful of unique class abilities, and fights that last more than 20 seconds and ill hang out all day... I'll even hold onto the list for group members coming and going if that's not your thing! One thing I think would be cool, is every 10 levels (or whatever) there was a milestone class specific quest you had to complete before being able to advance to the next level. Kind of like a more fun version of a hell level :D
I like the idea of the milestone quest every 10 levels. There is a lot of interesting things that could be done with that idea.
Gadgets said:
One thing I think would be cool, is every 10 levels (or whatever) there was a milestone class specific quest you had to complete before being able to advance to the next level. Kind of like a more fun version of a hell level :D
Last last year/earlier this year - the developers discussed a Right of Passage system that is potentially being implemented in Pantheon that would be similar to what you're requesting. Here are a few threads and a thinktank discussing it:
https://pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1598/dynamic-player-vs-power-leveler/view/post_id/18812
https://pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1634/concerning-the-rites-of-passage/view/post_id/19379
https://pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1603/virtual-worlds-get-bigger-or-sm/view/post_id/18813
https://pantheonrotf.com/question/view/151/rite-of-passage-quests-for-each-class
https://pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1727/rites-of-passage-and-time/view/post_id/21072
There was a SoundCloud Audio File discussing the Achievement system as well, but I can't seem to track down those Files as there are broken links on the Facebook Page. Maybe Kilsin could provide those unless they've been removed.
Way back when I played on Phoenixmud they had similar quests to the milestone idea called hero quests. You would play from 1 to 100 and could then choose a new more advanced race after doing a hero quest. The quest was very involved and required a solid knowledge of the world and the ability to defeat a monster that was picked by one of the Imortals. If you passed the test you were moved to level 101 and had the option to remort. Remort would put you back at level one with the new race you had chosen and you would level up to 101 this time taking approximately double the exp to get there. You then did another quest I forget the name of this one but the idea is the same only it is harder. Finally you picked a new stronger class and started at 1 again and ended up at 103 after you completed a final test.
It was a cool idea but it would make many of the newer MMO generation very unhappy.
IMHO, grindy should be the stuff that separates the hardcore from the casual. The idea being that you can divide the two up by testing their skill and/or their patience, and in most MMOs, you test both.
NToV required farming East/Wing wing ToV, which required farming dragon/giant armor, which required farming dragon/giant faction, which required etc etc. That was so you could ATTEMPT the Aryonaar fight. Hardcore people got to see Aryonaar, and casuals didn't. Period.
Where I don't like grindy is when that's all that's left. In WoW, you ding max, here comes a month of grinding dailies until the next xpac that adds 25 more new dailies, and the dailies are so you can do more dailies which will unlock...yes, you guessed it...more dailies. That's grindy without imagination and it's soul killing. Not saying the Velious armors and 100 Vindi raids didn't feel grindy, but it was exciting grindy, like gear runs in Hate and Fear.
I guess when you really sit down and think about it, the moment you feel you have stopped progressing is the moment you start to feel you are grinding. In a way you can consider it as a triple beam where progression is on one side of the scales and grinding is on the other and finding that balance is the key.
IMO a problem with a lot of today's MMOs is that you hit level cap TOO quickly. This is where the grind starts for a lot of situations. I'd like to see the devs create new ways for players to progress their characters towards end game and after level cap. Sure 'AA's' provide some sense of progression after cap and soften some of the blow of the grind but there has got to be other ways to stop players from falling off that cliff of progression. Because once you hit max level in a lot of MMOs you enter a void.
VG definitely had a nice leveling curve and I wouldn't mind seeing another lengthy curve in Pantheon.
Having started with a server that had a trivial loot code, I liked the ability to slow down the leveling so I could visit other new areas in expansions before it went trival " take in the air, there" Kind of thing. I was influenced by a Barbarian Shaman that took me through blackburrow to Halas. I was at an age where I could not go back through myself, so I was pretty much stuck in Halas for a while. As a Mage I found out they did not sell malachite (at the time), so I had to rethink my whole idea of what i could bring to a group. There were plenty of groups there. I had to dump alot of baggage, including swapping out my robe for the +5 cold fur tunic the shaman gave me before he left, that gave me a new look and I learned later was a component for a nice quested sol ro robe. Having to think about going through blackburrow and back to get to qeynos for some malachite- honestly the groups were better and I learned how to act like a wizard- heh- and no one minded that I did not have the typical "pet". I did have some malachite that I used judiciously in emergencies to good effect.
Grindy content is ok sometimes. One example of an obvious grind that I thought was done relatively well, was the initial SoD in Vanguard. It was truly a grind, but the rewards weren't game breaking (small passives and 1 additional slot I believe). For min/max types, they were excellent when you wanted to eek out every last drop of your characters potential, but a guild definitely wouldn't pass on a good player that didn't care to pursue it. I certainly wanted it as did most of my obsessive/compulsive guild mates, but the average Joe didn't feel it was 100% needed to be a viable player. The Pantheon Armor was more of a mandated grind in my opinion. such a huge upgrade that even a good player without it was handicapped to a point that talent couldn't compensate. To be honest, I like the grind, because those who are willing to put in the work, should reap the benefits, but the rewards shouldn't be so large as to make players require them all.
I believe the same on gear upgrades, smaller upgrades keep more content relevant for longer periods. Also, let's make rare items rare. I don't want to see every swinging %@#& in the game carrying the same freaking gear.
I've made some great friends helping out people with long (level appropriate) camps that couldn't be soloed, waiting for boats, chatting while searching for ground spawns, foraging, etc... If I can somehow rationalize the long camp through lore or a plot line, it feels organic and I'm less likely to feel like I'm being forced into a time sink designed solely to delay my level advancement.
Long camps should have occasional secondary or tertiary rewards to keep you interested. Imagine if a Vegas slot machine only ever gave two payouts: zero or jackpot. What keeps people playing the one armed bandit is the perception of near misses and partial payouts. If I camp an item for six hours, I'd like to at least come away with some junk armor drops that I can vendor for a bit of coin or disassemble for crafting components.
I'm even OK with grindy crafting up to the point where carpal tunnel syndrome is getting more skill ups than my armor smithing.
I suppose that even daily quests have a certain appeal or function if we're talking about group content. If I'm encouraged to go back to a particular area on a regular basis, there's better odds that I'll hook up with some other players with the same intent and make some new friends.
I'm trying to think of a quest in vintage EQ that I truly hated and I'm coming up short. Almost every example I try to come up with, I'm having fond memories of at least one incident or encounter with other players or I remember the huge satisfaction of finally achieving the end goal.
While I loved being able to "go back" in P99 to what felt mostly like vintage EQ, there were a number of elements which I feel are totally broken in that environment - all related to what we would consider "grindy" content.
1. Twinkage is completely out of control. Every second level 5 rogue in Crushbone is running around with his/her epic. What's the point of playing through lower levels if you're already decked out in end game gear? There should be tiers of gear that I can't simply purchase. Multi-questing is evil and the game needs to be more about the journey at lower levels than simply plowing through them with twink #6.
2. The P99 guild class system is just wrong. If a lesser guild wants to take a crack at any content they should have the right to fail and die horribly without artificially imposed rules about who is allowed to take on specific raid content. A big part of raiding is respectful competition for the kill. Yes, this can make some content tougher to get for newer guilds, but the grind is about working your way up to the toughest encounters organically. Current games have too much emphasis on end game encounters.
3. Storing rare lore drops on corpses is abusing a core game mechanic. Visit the ancient cyclops camp in Ocean of Tears some time and look in the water. Most likely you'll find a dozen corpses hidden just off shore from a single player.
Yes, multiquesting opens up the economy for end game players, but I'd argue that allowing players to bypass the grind with coin and encouraging a hand full of players to dominate key camps is very much counter to the spirit of adventure gaming. This is the mind set where players are simply pushing through content to get to end game and then burning out on the end game and moving on to some other realm to rinse/repeat the process.
Grind is good if it's in the context of game lore and the ongoing story arc of your character.
For me, personally, one of the problems with the endgame grinds in MMO's these days are the daily quests. It's not so much the quests themselves, or having to repeat them even, it's the fact that they're daily only. It's almost like a chore/something you dread when you know you have to log in and do the quest that day or you've 'lost' progress; you're now a 'day' behind each time you haven't logged in to run the treadmill.
Take the Shores of Darkness grind that many of you Vanguard vets went through. If there hadn't been a daily limit to the number of times you could repeat the quests, many of you would have ground out the quests at varying paces instead of feeling like you were being forced to do something each day if you wanted to get that edge in gear and abilities. The Wardship quests for example, you could keep going and there were a variety of ways and places to get the drops and faction you needed with the freedom of being able to do it at your own pace. The team should have done more of *that* style of grinding, even if it meant lulls in content release for the hardest of the hardcore grinders (they're really only a small percent of the overall pie and you'll never keep pace with them as a designer as it is).
I never really compared daily quests to chores but it does ring true. And for solo end-game content I guess they are ok but are unneccessary for end-game group content.
Most end-game content seems to rely heavily on tasks that keep you coming back and chipping away at your goal similar to miners chipping away in a cave. How fun is that right?! What I'd like to see is more difficult content for end-game group content. A dungeon which not only has a boss that is difficult for a well seasoned group to defeat (strat AND execution wise) but is hard just for the group to get to him.
A lot of what MMOs do today after level cap is have you log in and do daily things such as daily quests and repeatable dungeons to get coins to buy good gear after so much time collecting said coins. What happens is you log in, spend time in the game, and slowly get good gear while spending time in the game doing mindless tasks you can do with your eyes closed. For majority of it.
Say you log in and after max level you have areas like APW from VG for your single group to go to. It's tough to get to the bosses and once you get to the bosses they are tough as well. But just like APW the entry bosses are simpler and get tougher as you progress. NOW you log in, spend time in the game, and slowly get good gear but NOW you are using your brain and not mindlessly stabbing away at your keyboard. You are no longer feeling like you are grinding because not only are you getting a sense of reward you are also getting a sense of failure. And we need failure to feel successful!
I wish more devs would incorporate crafting with adventurers. Say a group total of 6 is possible. You have 1 crafter (say a blacksmith) and 5 adventurers. The group travels into a cave inside a mountain to get the crafter to a blacksmithing station to craft some epic gear. While the crafter is crafting the rest of the group has to defend him to make sure no baddies 'interupt' his crafting. Something like this to mix crafting with adventuring and to give other options to do after level cap would go a long way i think.
AgentGenX said:
For me, the harder and slower (many will say 'grindier') it is to gain experience and level up, the better. I would describe what I was doing to someone on a particular night as 'grinding' but it was never in a derogatory sense. Some of my fondest memories were of being in 'grind groups', conversing with my group and forging friendships while battling and recovering between fights.
I'm speaking with EQ1 in mind, I only played Vanguard the first year it came out. I'm not much a crafter, but the crafting system in EQ1 sure seems like that would have been a unpleasant grind. And one thing I really find no fun in, is being at max level and everyday doing daily quests, which take up most of my playtime, and then logout. Everyday. Hopefully nothing like this is in Pantheon.
Totally agree. I am sure people will hate this but bring back an AA system. Slow down gear attainment. Bring back group camping and getting to know people.
Venjenz said:
IMHO, grindy should be the stuff that separates the hardcore from the casual. The idea being that you can divide the two up by testing their skill and/or their patience, and in most MMOs, you test both.
NToV required farming East/Wing wing ToV, which required farming dragon/giant armor, which required farming dragon/giant faction, which required etc etc. That was so you could ATTEMPT the Aryonaar fight. Hardcore people got to see Aryonaar, and casuals didn't. Period.
Where I don't like grindy is when that's all that's left. In WoW, you ding max, here comes a month of grinding dailies until the next xpac that adds 25 more new dailies, and the dailies are so you can do more dailies which will unlock...yes, you guessed it...more dailies. That's grindy without imagination and it's soul killing. Not saying the Velious armors and 100 Vindi raids didn't feel grindy, but it was exciting grindy, like gear runs in Hate and Fear.
Exactly.
As others said, when you don't really feel like you're making any progress, all of a sudden the feeling of grind becomes less bearable. Dailies are a great example. I can understand that some people playing EQ didn't really want to do the factioning, farm all armor molds and items, and basically devote all the time necessary for progression in the later game... and thats completely OK. Not everyone has the time or desire to "grind" the content that requires more time, people, skill etc, but that doesn't make the process bad. My best memories in EQ were the things that people often refer to as grindy today, yet I found them fun and rewarding, with the rewards matching the necessary time and multi-player effort required.
Dullahan said:
As others said, when you don't really feel like you're making any progress, all of a sudden the feeling of grind becomes less bearable. Dailies are a great example. I can understand that some people playing EQ didn't really want to do the factioning, farm all armor molds and items, and basically devote all the time necessary for progression in the later game... and thats completely OK. Not everyone has the time or desire to "grind" the content that requires more time, people, skill etc, but that doesn't make the process bad. My best memories in EQ were the things that people often refer to as grindy today, yet I found them fun and rewarding, with the rewards matching the necessary time and multi-player effort required.
The most fun I have is just being in a group with good friends/guildies and fighting together while accomplishing goals. I'd actually like to see more of a necessity for more gear. This way you're not trying to reach a specific number of faction or a certain requirement for dailies which at the end of the day you really don't have nothing to hold (besides looking at a number in your faction UI window). This way you are actually getting something physical (virtual) to hold on to. I'd like to see, instead of revisiting a specific area daily to do dailies or work on faction, revisiting an area to work on getting 3 sets of armor (hypothetically). The game would first have to present the need for 3 sets of armor and I know a great way to do that. Vanguard 'sort' of had this angle.
If classes had the ability to play multiple roles. Not by skill trees that make you go down a certain path, if I choose to go down the healing path for my pally I won't be able to get far in the tanking skill tree, like how most MMOs handle it. I'd like to see something like VG had where classes had stances. Ie. the pally had 3 stances that allowed them to tank better, heal better, and dps better. NOW, you make gear more important. A pally can tank awesomely in his set of heavy plate armor that focuses on defensive tank stats (armor, defense, blocking, etc) or the pally can switch to their healing stance and work to get a set of heavy plate armor that focuses on healing (int, wis, healing, healing crits, etc). In reality this heavy plate armor that focuses on healing could actually suit clerics and other like classes as well.
Now, players can spend their necessary timesinks on more physical rewards instead of behind the scenes numbers which we all know lead to the sense of grinding and/or burnout. Or even while they are working on faction as well.
Ceythos said:
For me, personally, one of the problems with the endgame grinds in MMO's these days are the daily quests. It's not so much the quests themselves, or having to repeat them even, it's the fact that they're daily only. It's almost like a chore/something you dread when you know you have to log in and do the quest that day or you've 'lost' progress; you're now a 'day' behind each time you haven't logged in to run the treadmill.
Take the Shores of Darkness grind that many of you Vanguard vets went through. If there hadn't been a daily limit to the number of times you could repeat the quests, many of you would have ground out the quests at varying paces instead of feeling like you were being forced to do something each day if you wanted to get that edge in gear and abilities. The Wardship quests for example, you could keep going and there were a variety of ways and places to get the drops and faction you needed with the freedom of being able to do it at your own pace. The team should have done more of *that* style of grinding, even if it meant lulls in content release for the hardest of the hardcore grinders (they're really only a small percent of the overall pie and you'll never keep pace with them as a designer as it is).
Completely in agreement with this. I have nothing against repeatable quests (I actually like having them) but mandated daily logins suck the life out of me. Not that I can't do it or that its too much of a grind but I cant do things at my pace. Sometimes I want to be on a lot some days and not others or want to do something else for a bit but I feel like I am losing out if I don't get on and do the daily minimum stuff.
Mephiles said:
Ceythos said:
For me, personally, one of the problems with the endgame grinds in MMO's these days are the daily quests. It's not so much the quests themselves, or having to repeat them even, it's the fact that they're daily only. It's almost like a chore/something you dread when you know you have to log in and do the quest that day or you've 'lost' progress; you're now a 'day' behind each time you haven't logged in to run the treadmill.
Take the Shores of Darkness grind that many of you Vanguard vets went through. If there hadn't been a daily limit to the number of times you could repeat the quests, many of you would have ground out the quests at varying paces instead of feeling like you were being forced to do something each day if you wanted to get that edge in gear and abilities. The Wardship quests for example, you could keep going and there were a variety of ways and places to get the drops and faction you needed with the freedom of being able to do it at your own pace. The team should have done more of *that* style of grinding, even if it meant lulls in content release for the hardest of the hardcore grinders (they're really only a small percent of the overall pie and you'll never keep pace with them as a designer as it is).
Completely in agreement with this. I have nothing against repeatable quests (I actually like having them) but mandated daily logins suck the life out of me. Not that I can't do it or that its too much of a grind but I cant do things at my pace. Sometimes I want to be on a lot some days and not others or want to do something else for a bit but I feel like I am losing out if I don't get on and do the daily minimum stuff.
I agree that the daily quest mandate sucks. The reason they have them is they want to artificially control the rate of players attaining the benefit of said quests rewards. Whatever the reward they want to make sure people attain it at the rate they set. People complain about mindless grinding exp or AA points back in the day but to me these daily quests that you see in WoW are more mindless in my opinion. At least AA's I felt like I was making my character stronger even in the smallest way. Most dailies are just there for the sake of doing something.