This topic is very important to me...
I'd like to preface this post by saying that Planes of Power was my favorite MMO content of all time.
Part of the enjoyment I received from this expansion was due to the real feeling of progression, the way the story was revealed a bit at a time as you obtained new flags. Just that couple paragraphs of flavor text after beating Quarm at the very end felt soooo good. Loot didn't even matter except to help drive progression and everyone was so pumped when we would get a new flag.
Back Flagging... some people hated it, personally I liked it but some other perspectives on this would be interesting to me...
Finally I'd like to add that some kind of Grimoire that would track your progress and possibly record some of the story points from the progression would be really cool.
Thanks for reading and I'd like to hear other opinions on Planes of Power and the way it handled progression.
Kiz~
I wrote a 2 paragraph response on why I like keying and flagging.. then I deleted it all because I realized during writing it that I really don't like keying and flagging. The purpose of keying/flagging in the first place is to make sure that players have done previous content before moving on or "leapfrogging" to higher tiers of gear because they are being carried. If there are no instances and no player limits on raids you could just bring 20 extra people and gear up the players that are way far behind and skip all the previous content.
To me this is every guild's right, if a boss drops 3 loots and they want to bring 60 people to kill it instead of the 45 they could possibly do it with, then they have to split those 3 loots with 60 people instead of 45.
Flagging is simply an artificial restriction on player social structures.
Well player limits on engaging raid mobs is really important for tuning the raids... If a raid mob is tuned for 48 people and you bring 60 the last 12 to engage should be locked out.
Leapfrogging ahead of the content by means of zerging sounds terrible to me.
If your guild has 80 people and you want to flag them through a 48 man raid then your forced to find new ways to beat it with different configurations of players instead of just sending in your top guys and calling it good. I think this is important.
Thanks for the response can't wait to hear more,
Kiz~
Rallyd said:
I wrote a 2 paragraph response on why I like keying and flagging.. then I deleted it all because I realized during writing it that I really don't like keying and flagging. The purpose of keying/flagging in the first place is to make sure that players have done previous content before moving on or "leapfrogging" to higher tiers of gear because they are being carried. If there are no instances and no player limits on raids you could just bring 20 extra people and gear up the players that are way far behind and skip all the previous content.
To me this is every guild's right, if a boss drops 3 loots and they want to bring 60 people to kill it instead of the 45 they could possibly do it with, then they have to split those 3 loots with 60 people instead of 45.
Flagging is simply an artificial restriction on player social structures.
Personally, I think flagging / keys are important for the very same reason's you say that you don't like it. It makes guilds have to work together to progress, and not simply skip the bosses that they find too difficult or not worthwhile.
People who are way far behind shouldn't necessarily be able to skip content imo.
Everquest did have some leeway. If I remember correctly, where based on the amount of players with flags/keys in a raid, you could bring a couple non keyed players along with you. The nonkeyed players still would have to eventually get the keys if they wanted to have them themselves, but they were also able to still raid with their guild if they were missing a particular key. A system like Everquest would be fine imo.
While I think managing a zerg guild in a game with heavy item progression usually sorts itself out, I liked how certain areas had prestige or exclusivity about them because they required every player to have put in the time to get a key. Not all places should be like that of course. In Velious, you still had ToV where many of the strongest mobs and best items were found, but Sleepers was something of a loot pinata for the most devoted who keyed an entire raid over the course of several months. That air of mystery surrounding powerful mobs and their dungeons was part of what made Everquest so fantastic and compelling, and key quests serve as a great way of preserving that sense of wonder.
There was just something epic about finally being able to enter a zone like Veeshan's peak or Sleeper's tomb. It also served as a way to dispense lore. If you ever payed attention during those key quests, you got some of the most interesting backstories the game had to offer.
Whether a key by way of magic, only allows the player in, or it gives access to his entire group, I think attunement quests are a good thing.
Angrykiz said:
This topic is very important to me...
I'd like to preface this post by saying that Planes of Power was my favorite MMO content of all time.
Part of the enjoyment I received from this expansion was due to the real feeling of progression, the way the story was revealed a bit at a time as you obtained new flags. Just that couple paragraphs of flavor text after beating Quarm at the very end felt soooo good. Loot didn't even matter except to help drive progression and everyone was so pumped when we would get a new flag.
Back Flagging... some people hated it, personally I liked it but some other perspectives on this would be interesting to me...
Finally I'd like to add that some kind of Grimoire that would track your progress and possibly record some of story points from the progression would be really cool.
Thanks for reading and I'd like to hear other opinions on Planes of Power and the way it handled progression.
Kiz~
Just wanted to add, I really think its a great idea to record all major points to the backstory in a journal. After years of playing EQ, I actually went and found some of the lore compiled and began reading about it. I was actually kind of annoyed that there was so much there that I never knew. It would be amazing if there was a way to track the things you learn about different races, factions and history of Terminus, as you play the game.
Keying and flagging is ok IMO, as long as it doesn't force the players into a linear progression path. And keys/flags should be obtainable with reasonable effort: A key requiring a raid is overkill I think, but if you can go back with a group to key a guildmember, that's fine.
Sarim said:
Keying and flagging is ok IMO, as long as it doesn't force the players into a linear progression path. And keys/flags should be obtainable with reasonable effort: A key requiring a raid is overkill I think, but if you can go back with a group to key a guildmember, that's fine.
Progression should start with some group flags then move on to raid flags that require raids to get them, it doesn't have to be completely linear so that you have choices of targets on any given day but it should clearly progress to harder and harder content.
Kiz~
PoP was anathema to any lore and story driven game.
It was actually so idiotic that it was at that time that I left EQ - I simply couldn't stand that.
A paladin going to kill Mithaniel Marr ? A necromancer killing Bertoxxulous ? Any person killing the God he/she worships ?
This makes no sense at all and instantly destroyedany immersion and believability of Norrath.
As for keying and flagging like many wrote I find it very OK.
It is like a prequel to a novel. One gets hints and information. It is a taste of what is coming. Building up the tension.
I'm one who requires progression locks of whatever type. My main issue in other MMOs (read; WoW) is doing content that doesn't fit you. Whether being dragged along on a raid and carried by friends because you're not geared for it, or blasting through content with zero challenge, the end result is the same; boredom. Content must be relevant.
If keys are required to achieve that, I'm fine with that. Additionally, it serves to weed out inexperienced players from content that can destroy them. Sure, some of us don't need that boost, but I sure did. Takes a while to learn, for example, grouping mechanics, and getting keyed is a perfect opportunity. I'm thinking specifically of getting keyed from Karazhan, or for Karazhan, or something, in WoW. Yeah, had to run some of the upper tier five mans...
To object to keys being "artificial barriers" for players is absurd. The entire leveling system of the game is an "artificial barrier" to progression. That argument leads directly to logging in, collecting your rewards, and logging out. I'll drop this MMO like a hot potato if it even steps in that direction.
The 85% rule in EQ was actually a concession to those complaining about constant back flagging and was added later. Gathering keys for a raid slows content consumption and ensures that progression guilds actually complete the progression raids. I have no problem with key gated content.
I was in a raid guild groomed as raid tank #3 to take over raid tank #1 as he was busy leading the raids. I left work early, about an hour, one day arrived home and found 40+ people of my guild had killed Trak, if I have the correct dragon, in hopes I'd arrive home early to loot a wave crasher and a sleepers key. I think there was 9 minutes left on the body. Of course someone would have looted it but I really cherish that memory.
Planes of Power brought the end of my time with EQ. On one hand raid numbers grew and grew due to Sony's limited math or some such. I remember reading about a 178 person raid against Rallos Zek event. On the other hand was a change in occupation where I wasn't able to be around when my guild raided. So I ended up being one of the few people, in the guild, who was one key behind, then three keys behind, and so on and so forth. Pretty much it was ... Sorry try and find another guild raid and ask to piggy back. Or wait till the next expansion when we are doing that content.
So I tried a few times, before giving up from frustrations, asking permission to tag along when I noticed in /ooc a guild setting up for a key raid.
That was my experience. I really hope not to deal with such ostracizing mechanisms here in Pantheon.
Someone here mentioned the idea of attaining keys at a group level. Now that's a brilliant idea. Your still working with a others engaging in the story content AND socializing with others in your same situation (ie: I need Key #3). You build some new friendly associations or even friendships with others in different guilds. Opens up the possibility of being there for each other, next week, to earn key #4.
One last thing. What should I care if the guild I'm in is able to handle raid_boss_A with 40 people compared to three smaller family oriented clans killing that same raid boss with 65 people? That makes them a zerg? Who cares? If I'm having fun with my online "friends" how does their enjoyment of the game impact or ruin mine? Bragging rights possibly? Contested mobs? First come first served. If they wipe out then your next. Also, I doubt the top three or top five "hard core" guilds even notice or care about some low low ranking clans collaborating together.
-V
Hmm, well its not about casual players being able to bring 60 characters to a 42 man raid its to limit the top raiding guilds from steamrolling the content with their own 60 man raid... you have to set the limits somewhere or there will be no challenge to anything.
I do understand your concern with falling behind your guild on the progression. Maybe having the 85% flagged thing is not such a bad idea.
Although if the "gatekeepers" of the progression are very challenging there should be enough time for you to get the back flags you need while your guild bang theirs heads against the end boss of the tier.
There is a ton of games for casual players out there... I hope they build pantheon with hardcore players in mind... I'd pay $20.00 a month for it (if anyone cares).
Kiz~
Key gated content really represented such a small portion of the content in early EQ. Granted, the game as a whole was more hardcore with most character advancement coming by way of grouping or raiding, but there really wasn't that much that would be completely unobtainable by a more casual player, even if it meant waiting a few months until the neckbeards had moved on.
Like I said, zergs work themselves out in a game like EQ (and likely Pantheon). A zerg force may mean they can kill something, but it also means dealing with distributing less items to more people, and those at the bottom of the food chain eventually seek a guild of like-minded players where they have a better chance of progressing faster.
With all the casual options currently on the market, its a little discouraging to hear people want Pantheon to follow suit and remove the aspects of the game that provide challenge and provide a sense of wonder and exclusivity. Those were the things that kept me logging in and excited about playing EQ every day, even if I wasn't ahead of the curve. Now that attitude has changed to, if I can't have it, it needs to be easier, even if I'm only playing a few hours a week. Were that philosophy applied to Pantheon, I'd become disenchanted real quick like.
Angrykiz said:
Hmm, well its not about casual players being able to bring 60 characters to a 42 man raid its to limit the top raiding guilds from steamrolling the content with their own 60 man raid... you have to set the limits somewhere or there will be no challenge to anything.
I do understand your concern with falling behind your guild on the progression. Maybe having the 85% flagged thing is not such a bad idea.
Although if the "gatekeepers" of the progression are very challenging there should be enough time for you to get the back flags you need while your guild bang theirs heads against the end boss of the tier.
There is a ton of games for casual players out there... I hope they build pantheon with hardcore players in mind... I'd pay $20.00 a month for it (if anyone cares).
Kiz~
Hello Kiz ;
Thank you for your response and I thank you for asking what other people experience. My response was left for you.
Your first point about a strong guild steam rolling content. Thank you I had not thought of that. The guild I was in was a strong guild but we never, initially, steam rolled bosses. I wouldn't prefer that either and would support, for the love of the game, raid caps 24/48/60 whatever they may be.
As far as guilds helping lone wolfs piggy back on their raids to get keyed. Unless you know someone in that guild they're not going to risk some idiot they don't know to **** it up. What I would do now a days is post on the community forums for assistance. I believe the greater majority of those playing Pantheon would understand what it's like walking up hill in the snow both ways. Help a fellow player out. Just like those times a friends friend who was a stanger to me came halfway around the planet (EQ) to summon my corpse or lay down a high level res to help me recover as much exp as possible. I just want to bring up how there are those who start off 1 key behind and could end up 4 keys behind. Their guild all hot and heavy on content and having difficulty arranging a day for a back flagging day.
I long for a return of EQ's difficulty. I recently played around there the past three weeks. Granted a lot has changed but when I looted a weapon off a skeleton or sold enough wolf fangs to buy myself two bags I had that feeling of progress and achievement SO many of the current MMO's we have played leave me, maybe you too, feeling unsatisfied. I supported Pantheon back at their Kickstarter with a $250.00 Pathfinder membership. I'm looking forward to my lifetime membership.
Cheers and I hope my experience helped you as your viewpoints have helped me - V
valhalla said:
Your first point about a strong guild steam rolling content. Thank you I had not thought of that. The guild I was in was a strong guild but we never, initially, steam rolled bosses. I wouldn't prefer that either and would support, for the love of the game, raid caps 24/48/60 whatever they may be.
I really hope Pantheon doesn't go the way of raid caps, such a huge immersion break when a game tells you how many of your friends you CAN bring to a raid encounter. Instead these fights should be tuned to a specific number, and have mechanics in place that make bringing extra people possibly detrimental to your raid. The game should never disallow me from bringing more of my friends, it should just make things more complicated if I do. All raid caps end up doing is limiting guild sizes to the current raid cap number + ringers, and decreasing the social net that is the guild.
I've said this before but, if a guild brings 60 people to a 40 person raid encounter, and there are mechanics in place to dissuade the guild from bringing those extra people if their gear isn't up to par, then spreading that loot out to 60 people instead of 40, if they can even kill it, will result in that guild being less prepared for future content because their gear isn't saturated at the level it should be.
cladari said:The 85% rule in EQ was actually a concession to those complaining about constant back flagging and was added later. Gathering keys for a raid slows content consumption and ensures that progression guilds actually complete the progression raids. I have no problem with key gated content.
Castwell said:
cladari said:
The 85% rule in EQ was actually a concession to those complaining about constant back flagging and was added later. Gathering keys for a raid slows content consumption and ensures that progression guilds actually complete the progression raids. I have no problem with key gated content.
85% was a concession, but 1 that was needed. If everyone had 10-12 hours a day free it mighta been different, but the reality is that people have jobs, kids, school and such. Flagging can be a problem for them. As for the reference someone made about the rumored 178 man raid, I know we did one with 120. I've also done 35 people raids much above 35 - 40 peeps starts turning into a zoo.
One of the reasons this became such an issue over the years, and IMO, has resulted in games being made more convenient for players without 10-12 hours a day, is the fact that most of EQ's later expansions consisted of an increasing amount of raid only content. Planes of Power was nearly 80% raid content, 20% group. Once you get to that point, yes you need to make raids accessible to all and that's why people were complaining.
I feel that it is best if raid content is kept to a minority amount, so that the hardcore neckbeards who are also the minority, match the amount of content that is made for them. We don't want situations like WoW where the goal is to have everyone raiding, that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be to make a compelling virtual world where there are things to do for all different play-times/amounts. The ideal scenario is where raiding doesn't need to be convenient, because it's the thing a select few people will do, and that keeps the exclusivity intact.
Tune raids for whatever amount of players you would like, I care not how many it is as long as it's 20+. However please don't put restrictions on guilds bringing more, having to exclude friends or family members because people are worried it will give an advantage really kills community. Instead design fights with extra players in mind, and create mechanics that deal with that scenario.