Inspired by the threads about the destructive legacy of WoW (https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1856/the-destructive-legacy-of-wo-w) and instanced content (https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1348/instanced-versus-non-instanced-a). Instancing is a hot topic, for sure. But I think the underlying topic is really, how competitive will/should Pantheon be?
Pantheon is announced as a cooperative PvE game. There is no mention of PvP (in fact, questions of that topic are fairly quickly shot down). But isn't any form of competitive gameplay a form of PvP too? So, the question is what or how many elements of competitive gameplay will or should the game have?
Obviously, competition cannot be removed completely from the game world without making it implausible. Imagine two players (or groups) targeting a mob...only one player or group will be able to engage it. Usually that isn't a problem. Common mobs are plentiful, and interaction between players is also a good thing (even if its just a "Hey, we were first here!" :)
But what if that mob is a rare mob, which has sought after loot? Imagine you were in one of the groups. Would you just say "Ok, we will go somewhere else, maybe we have more luck tomorrow"? More than likely the situation will be exactly the same again tomorrow!
Perhaps some players look back with rose tinted glasses at waiting lists for mobs, or "racing to a mob". I certainly don't. I want to test my skills against the game world, against difficult foes. Not against other players. That's what PvP games are for. That's why I want limited instancing for high end encounters.
First, please do not use the "rose tinted glasses" argument, it is purely a bad argument and I would rather people here not sink to the level of so many modern mmo enthusiasts that believe all old mmos must be crap and that it is purely rose tinted goggles and it is not. I could go into why it is a bad argument but hopefully I don't have to here.
Instead I legitimately believe that people who say they liked the competition in games like Everquest did/do enjoy that kind of gameplay. I personally am more in agreement with you in so far as I don't think that the competition element was really the important part of these games or that it was even intended to function that way at all.
I also think that some of the hate for instancing stems from the USE of it in modern mmos where the open world is basically useless and all you end up doing is jumping from instance to instance. I firmly believe that instancing can be used in a minimal way to enhance the game while still keeping the large and alive world still functioning (and have examples in support). I also think that some content simply cannot be (or at least can't be done without a large degree of difficulty) done in an open world area. When you think about it, pantheon is already an instanced game as is due to zones (each zone being an instance), so I think people around here should relax a bit and focus on 'how' something is added rather than exclude it based only on its modern implementation (think about how Brad Mcquaid recently said he didn't think under-water segments are bad inherently and that the problems stem from how they are implemented).
Competition and cooperation are at least partly choices. Two people want the same camp, one can grab it and drive the other out or they can choose to share it and cooperate. Maybe I'm just not all that possessive, or I just wouldn't presume to call a specific set of pixels "mine," but I only got angry at someone competing for a spawn once or twice in a couple years and mostly because the other party waltzed in and took over a camp without even saying "hi." The overwhelming majority of the time competition had a more indirect effect, in that it thinned out existing mobs and made it take longer to find something to kill.
Here's the thing. I enjoyed what I was doing so much I could care less if I stretched out the enjoyment :) It's not really rose colored glasses because you know what, I'm playing project 1999 right now and loving it. And you know what, I love the fact that players who don't know each other actually interact with one another.
As I said in another thread, I would never presume to say Panthoen shouldn't have instancing because it all depends on how it is used. What I can say is it should not be used to the extent it allows people to avoid each other.
My views on instancing are pretty harsh - I am 100% against them except for compromising on quest-line events, and even then, I'd be ok with 0% instancing. I get your point Sarim on wanting to test your abilities; however, I do think an MMORPG should be injected with real life struggles as that is what makes the MMORPG realistic. If everything obtained in an MMORPG is easy, then the raids become trivial, even if the encounters themselves with boss mobs are not. With instances, the loot doesn't matter as everyone has their own instanced version of a raid item.
A MMORPG should be competitive, and I know with 100% certainty that with RL obligations today, I could not be an an uber guild that puts a stranglehold on non-instanced raid mobs, but that's ok, my expectations are set that I can challenge myself in other ways - 6 man groups, attempting to solo content meant for groups, etc. Some of the hardest things I accomplished in Vanilla EQ was not raiding (although I died more raiding), but what could be accomplished with a solid duo or trio.
And, your example on a camped mob - take the frenzied ghoul in EQ. It was camped nearly 24/7. However, there often was another camp location open in Gukbottom if the frenzied wasn't, and usually, there was always a friend/groupmate/guildie etc. that needed another item from another camp. That was the beauty of EQ - you didn't mind not camping your item as you knew that your friends would help you obtain yours eventually. It's simply the expectation that I have to have X piece of gear immediately that has to change.
My stance is simple really - like real life, if you can't put in the time/effort, then you shouldn't be awarded the best gear as fast as those who can. However, that's entirely different than saying that you can't be the "best" or "most skilled" at playing your character, but, your gear might take time to catch up with others if you have limited playtime.
-Camping: ok, but it does get boring after a while. and personally i would rather go through and see what is around the next corner.
-Farming: unrealistic strangle hold on a particular monster, you go to see if it is up, and if so, great, take a shot and if not MOVE ON. A guild is not comprised of 70 members of the same character type needing the same drop. Maybe 5, and then MOVE ON.
-PvP : I don't know it, but I think it should be grand in scope and full of vitriol. Dare I say it: guild/player specific (I didn't say guild wars). I am talking Hatfields and McCoys. if one member of a guild ganks another member, then all the members in the guild are open to all the members of the other guild and this coded- until a truce or cease fire is agreed. Likewise If not in a guild, player to one player only unless truce or cease fire is agreed ( maybe use the base coding foundation from the diplomacy game in vanguard as a start). if one player is in a group and they come to the other player, the one player will need to leave the group, but cannot attack the other player with the group- that might be harder and unrealistic.
This is the biggest reason why there should be PvP servers. I'm always a little baffled by the negativity towards PvP servers when they stand as the easiest way to let the especially "competitive" players fight it out and avoid drama on the PvE servers. That way the players who enjoy working together and like the friendly and cooperative atmosphere can do so with limited disturbances.
Personally, when it came down to competition in EverQuest, I learned to really appreciate the PvP server and ended up abandoning my max level character on Tarew Marr in favor of playing on RZ full time. Things were generally peaceful on blue servers, but from time to time, especially when it came to raid content, it became pretty dirty and there was more than a few times GMs had to intervene as 3 guilds stood at the plane of fear portal trying to decide who had the right to enter. Surprisingly, I found the fear of death and losing your items to keep things more civilized on Rallos than on any blue server I ever played on. Players took law and order very seriously and were able to enforce it themselves without GMs becoming involved.
I think no matter how well the world is built, how many options players have for different places to explore, xp and farm, you will always run into situations where players will bump heads. Thats just the nature of contested content. The thing that set EQ apart and really rectified these situations for the most part, was having a game designed around group+ content where players had something to lose by mistreating others. As long as this is the case in Pantheon, people will ultimately have to play nice with others or risk becoming an outcast who can't get into groups or play the game.
Those are the two big solutions in my mind. PvP servers for players who like to fight it out, and designing content and progression largely around groups so players remember to mind their manners or be left without a way to advance in Pantheon.
/ {zone channel} Camp Check
I understand the Op's concerns and I also remember how people were nice enough to respect each others camps and even give someone a chance to join or take over a camp. I am not sure how it will play out here. It will be influenced by the community and how needed a particular camp is and how many are available. It will be interesting - hopefully I will be pleased. This will be a very important part of the game - as it will be camp based as per Joppa's recent quote: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1006/view/forums/thread/430432/XP-camps-in-Pantheon.html
We are going to address this question in more detail in an upcoming Round Table, but I want to officially set the record straight:
Pantheon will primarily be a camp-based game, both overland and dungeon, very similar to what you remember from EverQuest 1.
There will be a handful of meaningful exceptions, but overall we are choosing to embrace camping for all the right reasons. That being said, you can expect us to spice things up a bit - you never know what we might have up our sleeves to keep you on your toes ;)
