Here's my vision for travel. All cities are connected by relatively fast travel, i.e caravans or ships (or trains, air trollies, etc, if lore permits, but no horses), that moves at an express speed, but does not disengage the player form the visceral experience of the journey. I'm perfectly content to bob along on the back of a wagon, but I don't want to click on a person or a stone and instantly appear somewhere else. People will purchase tickets from a merchant and every ten minutes or so (let's say every in-game hour) a caravan convoy or ship will depart from the said town to the target destination. Both waiting and traveling would provide opportunities for conversation with other players, and at the end of your journey, you might emerge at your destination with a new friend or group mate. "Hey, you headed to High Keep? How about we partner up when we get there. Sounds good to me." In addition, you would be able to purchase horses, and maybe other mounts, if lore allows, that could provide a variety of benefits. I will go into that system in another post. But the important thing to note here is that no transportation will ever be as fast as the "relatively fast" travel between populated destinations. Horses and other mounts will come into play when venturing off the beaten path.
To take this system to a deeper level of immersion, we could also not have caravans, ship, etc depart during the wee hours of the morning. Therefore, it sometimes might be more beneficial to start out into the darkness alone, or with a few other adventurers, than wait for the caravans to start. This sort of gameplay would be very memorable and create a lot of compelling stories. "Do you remember the time when we headed out into Kithicor Forest, despite all the insane undead, because we had to kill Grumsh Longtooth before he despawned in the Umber Deep?"
Now, I'm sure I'm going to get some opposition about how horrible it was to wait for the boat to Antonica and how you often died by falling off or running into a roaming monster. The truth is EverQuest for all its glory was a very glitchy game, and it was not very well refined in many ways. But that doest mean the system without a little refinement wouldn't work out great in Pantheon. You had to wait way too long for a boat in EQ, and you would have no idea when it was actually coming so it felt even longer. The boat also moved too slowly and there wasn't really anything to see or experience (unless it was going to kill you). It should be very hard to fall off the boat; it should be an active decision. On that subject, you should be able to jump off a caravan as well, but you have to press a button. While on a boat or caravan, you should be safe, unless being beset by monsters occasionally is an active choice by the developers. When it comes time to get on a caravan or boat, you should be teleported into position, so there is no chance for missing either.
I am not a fan of clicky map travel. Makes the world seem small and flat. The way you describe it is the way I like to experience the world, and much more immersive. I am sure there are other old schoolers that would agree. :)
One more thing...I remember falling off that boat, but that was due to lag issues at the start. Oh the days of dial-up and line noise. hehehe
Again,
Welcome Saphrael and you're most definitely in the right place. There will be more in agreement here with you for meaningful travel than against it. And, surprisingly, you may have more argument against even your ideas over simply "hoofing it."
I've linked a thread about meaningful travel that was discussed earlier this year below:
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1592/what-does-meaningful-travel-mean/view/post_id/18625
this is a cool idea, i like it. but i also feel that wizard and druid ports between the different areas should come at the levels you are ready to access them. tho it should be thru some sort of quest or maybe the research system of EQ. so that those willing to put in the time to get it would be able to port other players to destinations within their level range.
i never did like the eq ports because you didnt get them until you were done with that area.
No, totally, I think teleporting via players should definitely be a thing. I actually really like having those utility powers be available at higher levels though because it forces people to go back and interact with lowbies. They are powers you don't get so much for you own benefit, but for your contribution to the virtual society.
One of the big things that create a awesome MMO world is the economy. EQ had it, SWG had it, and so did several other things. But one of the ideas behind having a solid economy is player driven services. Once we start automating too much travel or make it too easy to do stuff, we lose that instantly.
I am a fan of slower travel. I rather take a ship, wagon, or other vehicle than clicky travel (EQ2 / Wildstar). I think having utility travel classes (Wizard/Druid of EQ1) a good idea. Sure you could get to point B in 30 minutes of self travel, or you could talk to someone and pay some coin to be there in 5.
They could do it like FFXI, where there are ships that go between each main city and you have to ride in them real time. But before you can ride on those ships you had to earn a permit pass by doing a long hard questline that required you to go all over the place and become friendly with all kinds of factions, so you spent the early part of your career having to walk the long way everywhere.
they also had a teleportation system where there were these crystals in different parts of the wild that you could attune yourself to by going there once. And to teleport to one of these crystals you had to get a mage to cast the spell, so it was lucrative for mages because people were always buying teleports. And each individual attunement crystal had its own name and separate spell that the mage had to learn by doing a quest line or rare drop
I'm personally against any fast travel that isn't a player portal or boat. Though I don't want to see someone at level 10 able to port anywhere. I know for a fact that for people to appreciate the portal spells... they must first have to make the journey to get there a few times. Other wise you would just take it for granted like all of us do with clean water or food in our bellies.
Also any travel where someone can click a button and then walk away from their computer free of danger or risk of some kind is not the type that will help prompt player interaction. For instance even boat travel has a danger... for instance if you went AFK on the boat ride and then missed the docks and had to make another loop you would be losing time. I know that just missing the boat sucked in a major way and I feel that maybe it was a bit too long, though I also remember meeting other people who had just missed it as well and we sat at the docks talking until it returned and even in some cases grouped later or stayed friends afterwards. So while we are weighing the cons of this and that, let's make sure we are attempting to weigh all the pros and cons.
So with that said... I do also know that EQ didn't do everything right and that nostalgia does have a hold of me and a few others. I am also a pretty open minded person and if we can find a way to avoid what I mentioned above with something like the idea in the op, then I will do my best to swallow my old school way of thinking and give it a shot.
I don't want to be so narrow minded that I miss out on a few great ideas that others have that could make the game more enjoyable.
I'm with you Niien! It seems as though most games today can be played in a semi-conscious state and what fun is that?! I still remember my heart-pounding when the boat would arrive and being extra cautious to jump on at just the right time! I have very little recollection or stories of travel in any other MMO's because you're right, you click and go AFK. You can't beat that community building that you mentioned in having to wait or to take a long journey or rely on others!
Niien said:
I'm personally against any fast travel that isn't a player portal or boat. Though I don't want to see someone at level 10 able to port anywhere. I know for a fact that for people to appreciate the portal spells... they must first have to make the journey to get there a few times. Other wise you would just take it for granted like all of us do with clean water or food in our bellies.
Also any travel where someone can click a button and then walk away from their computer free of danger or risk of some kind is not the type that will help prompt player interaction. For instance even boat travel has a danger... for instance if you went AFK on the boat ride and then missed the docks and had to make another loop you would be losing time. I know that just missing the boat sucked in a major way and I feel that maybe it was a bit too long, though I also remember meeting other people who had just missed it as well and we sat at the docks talking until it returned and even in some cases grouped later or stayed friends afterwards. So while we are weighing the cons of this and that, let's make sure we are attempting to weigh all the pros and cons.
Kesira said:
I'm with you Niien! It seems as though most games today can be played in a semi-conscious state and what fun is that?! I still remember my heart-pounding when the boat would arrive and being extra cautious to jump on at just the right time! I have very little recollection or stories of travel in any other MMO's because you're right, you click and go AFK. You can't beat that community building that you mentioned in having to wait or to take a long journey or rely on others!Niien said:
I'm personally against any fast travel that isn't a player portal or boat. Though I don't want to see someone at level 10 able to port anywhere. I know for a fact that for people to appreciate the portal spells... they must first have to make the journey to get there a few times. Other wise you would just take it for granted like all of us do with clean water or food in our bellies.
Also any travel where someone can click a button and then walk away from their computer free of danger or risk of some kind is not the type that will help prompt player interaction. For instance even boat travel has a danger... for instance if you went AFK on the boat ride and then missed the docks and had to make another loop you would be losing time. I know that just missing the boat sucked in a major way and I feel that maybe it was a bit too long, though I also remember meeting other people who had just missed it as well and we sat at the docks talking until it returned and even in some cases grouped later or stayed friends afterwards. So while we are weighing the cons of this and that, let's make sure we are attempting to weigh all the pros and cons.
Yes yes... though your opinion is a biased one, it does ring true... my beautiful wife!
Kesira said:
I'm with you Niien! It seems as though most games today can be played in a semi-conscious state and what fun is that?! I still remember my heart-pounding when the boat would arrive and being extra cautious to jump on at just the right time! I have very little recollection or stories of travel in any other MMO's because you're right, you click and go AFK. You can't beat that community building that you mentioned in having to wait or to take a long journey or rely on others!Niien said:
I'm personally against any fast travel that isn't a player portal or boat. Though I don't want to see someone at level 10 able to port anywhere. I know for a fact that for people to appreciate the portal spells... they must first have to make the journey to get there a few times. Other wise you would just take it for granted like all of us do with clean water or food in our bellies.
Also any travel where someone can click a button and then walk away from their computer free of danger or risk of some kind is not the type that will help prompt player interaction. For instance even boat travel has a danger... for instance if you went AFK on the boat ride and then missed the docks and had to make another loop you would be losing time. I know that just missing the boat sucked in a major way and I feel that maybe it was a bit too long, though I also remember meeting other people who had just missed it as well and we sat at the docks talking until it returned and even in some cases grouped later or stayed friends afterwards. So while we are weighing the cons of this and that, let's make sure we are attempting to weigh all the pros and cons.
I think the same thing. Waiting for the boat, your bound to talk to others also waiting, talk about a piece of gear they have, how they got it. This is when you usually buff each other, throw some SoW on each other.
Here is where I think Travel gets tricky. If you played SWG you will know exactly my feeling. I do not want traveling from Point A to Point B to take an hour. I before had been out in the middle of one planet and had to travel from that planet 2 planet hops away. If the Ships lined up just try it might take me over and hour of waiting just to get to my group of friends. For example one day I was out on Roi, and my friends where out playing on Dantoonie. I didnt get to where they were for over and hour. This is when ships from planet to planet were 15 minute intervals, and I was out at an Imp base on Rori I use to grind on. After that last time of sitting around and having to wait I quit.
Now I also was brought up on MMOs playing UO and dont have problems with Instant travel either because you dont get to that point unless people give you a few dozen books for all the possible locations you want to go. But Instant did kill some of the immersion.
I think we need a system somewhere in the middle. WOW had a good system where I could get out of an area when I want to call it a night but the heartstone was on a 30 minute cool down so it was not used all the time. They also had a good system with the boats, the tram, and flying from zone to zone (Preflying) as long as you got the flight path. It didnt take you more than 20 minutes or so to get to my friends where ever they were. That was a good balance between having downtime and being stupid with travel.
Hello Saph,
I absolutely loved this post. I never thought of something like this in a game. It would be super immersive. I know in Elder Scrolls games I always turned off Fast Travel or just simply did not do it. I walked or rode my horse everywhere. Same with Fallouts. It is just my style. I think it would be neat if the caravans had a chance to be attacked or raided by bandits too. No safe passage through these woods!
Yeah, they kind have this in other games like DAoC and SWTOR where you could travel over land quickly but only to locations you've been to at least once. That still engages the player to explore and avoids the click I'm there. It does still take time. But personally I would have to disagree and here's why:
1) Druid and wizard ports in everquest created additional in game economy both for the players selling that service and the players buying it. if you didn't have the cash you had to hoof it.
2) It made the world seem ALOT bigger. I'm sorry but having to travel somewhere once and then forever after taking the fast speeder to that location really makes the world a smaller place. It just does. I really loved how EQ1 felt HUGE, because no matter how you slice it you were hoofing it and taking an hour to get there if you were still a newb and didn't have the money for a port and even if you did depending on the level of the caster he might only be able to get you so close to your destination so you were having to run the rest of the way.
3) It creates community. It makes you talk to other players. It creates necessary down time while you hang out and chat with people waiting your turn for a teleport to where you want to go.
4) Despite EQ1's much slower travel (at least until the Plane of Tranquility), I always felt like I could get where I wanted to go in a reasonable amount of time. Sure sometimes it took me 15 minutes to get somewhere, but between porting and speed spells I never felt like it took forever. The only time it ever felt really really lone was when I was a scrub and ran from butcherblock to qeynos at 5th level and died in kithicor and fell off the boat. But you know what.... it was supposed to. That trip is something I still remember all these years later and it made me in awe of the scale of the game and how small I felt.
Now all that said I am all for giving more ports to spell casters. I'd love to have spells like calling a friend to your side if grouped, or teleporting yourself or the entire group, or evac. I even think a limited version of recall ala UO would be cool. But the problem with recall is that it made travel too easy. You just had to make stones for everywhere. I personally think if you limited someone to like 1 or 2 recall stones and made them poof if you die... that would be a cool spell to add to the game.
I wouldn't mind seeing some mounts though... and maybe wagons.
Mornroc said:It made the world seem ALOT bigger. I'm sorry but having to travel somewhere once and then forever after taking the fast speeder to that location really makes the world a smaller place. It just does. I really loved how EQ1 felt HUGE, because no matter how you slice it you were hoofing it and taking an hour to get there if you were still a newb and didn't have the money for a port and even if you did depending on the level of the caster he might only be able to get you so close to your destination so you were having to run the rest of the way.
100% this, although for me the worst thing about speeder rides, flight paths, et al isn't so much the fact that they make the world smaller, but that they rob you of the journey. You get to bypass all the dangers every time, there's no opportunity to rescue a struggling newbies or buff a nearby party, or discover a rare spawn for the first time that just happened to be up during your trek.
As for boats, I agree that EQ's wait times were way too long and hampered by the lack of knowing when to expect the next arrival, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater by eliminating boats altogether has robbed us of some very clever downtime and entire oceans (literally) full of content. Even when SWG cut down the wait time on shuttles, the social experience changed dramatically and people no longer spent those 10 minutes talking, because there wasn't enough time to warrant making connections before the next shuttle arrived.
I would say 15-20 minutes between boats at either location for sure, but any longer than that drifts into the excessive. And an NPC to advise of ETA is preferable, though I would suggest only offering vague notions of 'The boat is nearly here' rather than specific wait times. As for having boring journeys, I would say much of that is probably due to the age and limitations of EverQuest, although even Vanguard's boat trips were pretty bland.
Take a page out of FFXI and add plenty of visual fluff to the boats - whales breaching, dolphins swimming alongside, flocks of seagulls. Let people fish off the bow, and have some rare fish that can only be caught while on a boat to keep the traveling population up. FFXI also had enemies that could spawn from fishing on boats which was always fun to watch, and very rarely the boat would even came to a halt as a pirate ship came alongside and boarded. For what it's worth, low levels / players who weren't interested in fighting could always hide below deck, but it was a great way to spice up the ride and could serve as another source of rare and rumored loot.
Yeah part of the fun in EQ1 when exploring was knowing that I was so terribly below the level of stuff in zone X that I would get murdered in an instant and had to be careful. Running through Kithicor was always a joy so I could go experience some content on the other side. That forest was an interesting barrier and really made it feel like you were 'having an adventure'.
Mornroc Posted:
4) Despite EQ1's much slower travel (at least until the Plane of Tranquility), I always felt like I could get where I wanted to go in a reasonable amount of time. Sure sometimes it took me 15 minutes to get somewhere, but between porting and speed spells I never felt like it took forever. The only time it ever felt really really lone was when I was a scrub and ran from butcherblock to qeynos at 5th level and died in kithicor and fell off the boat. But you know what.... it was supposed to. That trip is something I still remember all these years later and it made me in awe of the scale of the game and how small I felt.
I miss this. I can actually remember running across regions and not seeing anyone for a few days in EQ. I do like mounts and fast travel but how do you incorporate the same feeling without destroying the emersion piece.
EQ2 had the griffons but I felt that was a hindrance. WoW had the griffons and the zeppelins. Once the flying mounts were introduced that changed everything.
Back to the question I had. Do you create massive areas? Limit the travel types?
Ox
X
My first trip from Qeynos to Freeport is still on my top list of great memories I had in mmos.
As much as I don't like the restriction players had from picking different races in EQ that made grouping in early levels a bit painful, I totally prefer a vastly world to explore where traveling isn't easy to come by.
Maybe there could be a cosmopolitan city in pantheon that any races can pick to start from in case friends want to play together from day 1.
Fullor said:I am a fan of slower travel. I rather take a ship, wagon, or other vehicle than clicky travel (EQ2 / Wildstar). I think having utility travel classes (Wizard/Druid of EQ1) a good idea. Sure you could get to point B in 30 minutes of self travel, or you could talk to someone and pay some coin to be there in 5.
I agree with Fullor 100% on both counts. Let it be written.
Oxillion said:somuch for copy and paste...sorry guys..
You can edit your posts.. it's a link in the upper right corner.
As to your origonal question, I think zone sizes these days can be pretty huge and more seamless transitions between them. I don't know that zone size really directly correlates. I think there are many reasons for adjusting zone size and other reasons for adding zone borders. I think the vastness of the world is a combination of:
1) The danger in getting from point A to point B.
2) The distance between A and B (zone size as well as number of zones, etc.)
3) The method of travel. I.E. Avoiding any kind of instant no danger travel. There should ALWAYS be danger. Even if there is fast travel, there should be a chance of getting waylaid. Aside from teleports provided by other players of course.
4) I am also a proponent of not even letting you teleport somewhere till you have been there once.