Raroic said:Keiiek said:
What should the maximum duration of a single target mezz be? AoE mezz?
I dont know what a max durtation mezz should be but I personally dont like artificial caps on how many mobs a person can control. I think the that should depend on the player skill and group skill. I hope there is a great mix of mez/stuns that allows the player to really test themselves. I dont mind diminishing returns on them either. I played a Psion in all of VG beta and into live. If I recall earlier in beta I could control a decent amount of mobs. As we got closer to live and into live I think they reduced it to a hard cap of 3. Its been a long time so I cant remember if that is totally accurate. With all that said I very much look forward that is bringing back classes with utility.
I dont know if this idea has been thrown out before but here goes.
Have no cap on the amount of mobs you can mez but the the more mobs the Enchanter mezzes the greater the chance that any of the previously mezzed mobs could break and attack the group. If only 1 or 2 are mezzed there is a reasonable chance that both stay mezzed close to the duration of the spell with a smaller chance of the spell breaking. Each mob after that would increase the break chance by a larger percentage.
fazool said:One thing I proposed (and was glad to see get some EQ discussion traction) was a slow wake up......when a mob breaks mezz, they are a little disoriented. They don't go from Mezz back to 100% offense - they sort of come out of a fog first.
I do like that idea and you could also make it so the higher the intelligence of the mob the less of a slow wake it would have.
Strongly advocate set mesmerization duration that may be extended perhaps with certain gear or abilities. You start adjusting the duration and now you're looking at a charm-esque type spell in regard to difficulty, no thanks! Early on it should be 'exciting' enough to get mez to land, let alone worry about it breaking prematurely. You'd have cases where you might need two Enchanters in a group, that's no fun as it robs someone else just because someone wanted variable base mesmerization duration.
Kilsin said:I also like the VG Psi ethereal unbreakable mez for any mob in game except ones that can resist that type of spell or mini named/named mobs that are too powerful to be control by such tactics!
Also the Simulacrum was a fantastic image of a mob to distract them and hold them down fighting their own image for a short time.
I hated the unbreakable mez. Seemed like one more way to remove skill from the game. Hopefully, Pantheon is different.
Wait what, you liked a limited amount of mobs a class could mez? AE mez in EQ landed on 6. There were raid events where I was responsible for keeping a dozen mobs on ice. I'd have to round them up and put them into neat little packs so I could effectively do it. We also had one viral mez spell which was effectively useless for the most part (level cap) but I went into Unrest one time to play with it and basically had 80% of the zone mesmerized. That was entertaining. Not threatening to me in any way, but it was fun to witness. Don't limit total mez amounts!
To me a test of a good Enchanter was how many mobs they could competently keep locked down. That was part of the fun. Although, I understand Psi and ENC might not exactly correlate.
Filzin said:Kilsin said:I also like the VG Psi ethereal unbreakable mez for any mob in game except ones that can resist that type of spell or mini named/named mobs that are too powerful to be control by such tactics!
Also the Simulacrum was a fantastic image of a mob to distract them and hold them down fighting their own image for a short time.
I hated the unbreakable mez. Seemed like one more way to remove skill from the game. Hopefully, Pantheon is different.
It was breakable just not by other classes damage, it still had a chance to break at any time within the 5 min period, most of us didn't notice due to either the speed at which we dropped mobs due to the poor changes to itemization, making us way too OP at end game or we continually re-mezzed before needing too to make sure the mob was locked down. So it had nothing to do with removing skill for one CC spell man, it just meant one of our mezzes couldn't be hit by a player which made us choose to use it wisely on the more dangerous/tougher mobs, we still needed to pay attention though.
Kilsin said:Filzin said:Kilsin said:I also like the VG Psi ethereal unbreakable mez for any mob in game except ones that can resist that type of spell or mini named/named mobs that are too powerful to be control by such tactics!
Also the Simulacrum was a fantastic image of a mob to distract them and hold them down fighting their own image for a short time.
I hated the unbreakable mez. Seemed like one more way to remove skill from the game. Hopefully, Pantheon is different.
It was breakable just not by other classes damage, it still had a chance to break at any time within the 5 min period, most of us didn't notice due to either the speed at which we dropped mobs due to the poor changes to itemization, making us way too OP at end game or we continually re-mezzed before needing too to make sure the mob was locked down. So it had nothing to do with removing skill for one CC spell man, it just meant one of our mezzes couldn't be hit by a player which made us choose to use it wisely on the more dangerous/tougher mobs, we still needed to pay attention though.
Never got to play VG, but love the idea of having even just one unbreakable (by players) mez. Would be a godsend!
Also, +1 to the idea of having a slow wake on less intelligent mobs.
I'll restate ideas I had on mez from an earlier post ( I was a EQ career enchanter ). The idea is to keep enchanter skill based, but modernized. Enchanters should channel mez on target, the longer the channel, the stronger the orb surrounding them gets until it hits some max strength (or whatever graphic depicts it) everyone can see the animation which deteriorates over time (the mob should slowly start to move as the orbs final seconds fade [or slowly start casting a spell], likewise they should slow down as the initial orb is being applied [won't cancel a spell until fully applied, but will slow it] ). No add-ons required to start a series of clocks when you cast mez or any of that nonsense. So if party pulls 5 mobs, you can channel each mob for a brief time to immediately subdue them, then you'll have to quickly rotate through until they're all locked down for long enough (obviously using AOE channeling when applicable). The higher level the mob you're mezzing the slower the mez orb builds. If the mob is high enough, it will require a constant channel to subdue it. If it's too high, it can't be mez'd. Static durations for mez and random resists lack creativity and flavor and is, imho, ancient mechanics.
The benefits of this system, to name a few, enchanter remains skill based, more so than before, the whole party can work off the mez duration that everyone can visualize. Cleric can root a mob whose orb is about to fade, etc. Bard can sing at the low orb mobs to rebuild the orb. Also when mobs are being mez'd everyone can see what the enchanter is doing, no need for group binds and %T's and all that jazz, no more guesswork. Also multiple enchanters/bards could combo channel the same target building the orb faster, making a mob a single enchanter couldn't mez himself suddenly possible, adding a whole new dynamic. This obviously removes the random component in exchange for raising the skill required which is ideal, imo. On the idea of combo channeling, also you would negate the problem of lower mez being cast on a higher mez mob just getting resist. If a level 12 enchanter with the level 12 channel spell were in a group with an enchanter with the 16 channel spell, the 12 could stack right on top of the 16 or be cast simultaneously, the 12 would just build the orb slower, if the 12 couldn't build the orb by themselves (suppose mob too red) perhaps it just slows the orb deterioration. You solve all the EQ problems of ae mez overwriting regular mez, and higher level mez overwriting lowers, etc.
In raids, multiple enchanters (max level enchanters) can combine to channel raid mobs down, it will require enchanters work together, and limit the power of CC in raids while keeping it viable. For instance it might take 3 60 enchanters to lock down level 70 adds, you would end up with CC groups, a concept that was foreign to EQ.
Also the AE version could be a AOE based channel based on either ground target, mob targeted, or pbaoe, each would be pretty good, maybe a version of each. The self aoe could be more mana efficient since it's less flexible. Again everyone could see orbs going up as the AOE is channeling just like single target higher level mobs would orb up slower.
The problem with all this though, is you might end up with too many enchanters.
Getting TLDR I realize, thanks if you read this far.
A compromise between other ideas if devs feel really strong against channeling, is to apply the same logic to casts, create a visual orb/prison etc graphic that everyone can see. If it's random duration, like root in EQ, thats perfectly fine but the graphic should depict it clearly for everyone to see how strong the mez was. Then you can have skilled players assisting the enchanter and following up with a root if they get unlucky. If I were a cleric I would certainly watch the enchanter in dire situations to help out. Unfortunately without channeling I can't see what he's doing and root other mobs, but it's better, at least if we get a few more adds he/she needs to start working on, I can root mez's that are about to fade to help, again he/she won't be confused by whats rooted and whats mez'd because he/she will be able to see it and re-mez easily. Also a new mez cast should only add to duration with diminishing returns, never overwrite and apply a new random duration, you don't want a 1/2 mez initial cast being overridden by a 1/4 cast, the 1/4 cast should add 1/5 duration to the 1/2 (not those numbers exactly but you get my point). Same logic with animations on other CC spells like root, roots should come out of the ground and clearly depict the strength of the cast, and should whither and fade as duration goes down. I cringe at the thought of "a large rat is slightly enthralled", "a large rat is deeply enthralled", or just no information at all. I don't think this kind of gameplay is going to capture modern players. Sure masochists like me would deal with it but everyone should be able to work off visual cues, unlike EQ.
I dont know about channeling. It would take far too long to lock multiple targets down since you are channeling each one instead of a quick cast > cycle target > cast etc. I wouldnt be opposed to maybe having some type of channeling spell but wouldnt want it to be on mez as I like to make quick work of locking down adds, debuffing, slowing, remezzing, blurring etc. That was quite an interesting read and thanks for taking the time to share your idea.
I think Mez should be a set duration and whether or not it lands or not be depending on the mob level and magic resistance. I like the idea of having an unresistable Mez spell that has a short duration and recast timer equal to the duration for thoses times when you have a high level highly resistant add in camp. I guess I wouldnt be totally opposed to Mez having a chance to break early but would be more in support of fixed durations and those durations increasing as you increase your characters level. Would also love to see Mez have a % chance to memblur as well upon landing which maybe checks against your int or charisma. Having to channel a mez and the duration being determined by the length of the channel sounds like a very tough way to mez. If you get multiple adds and can only channel a couple seconds on each then the first one breaking before you can get the last one mezzed sounds painful.
Most of my EQ time was spent playing an enchanter up to level 65 when that was the max. For the most part the experience was fantastic however things I would like to see different (keep in mind these are all based on memories tainted by the passage of much time):
This thread was primarily about mezz but I thought I'd add, as part of number 2 above, I remember not contributing a whole lot to groups other than mezz. This definetly contributed to having an abundance of mana at mid to high levels. Usually a shaman would slow, my buffs sucked compared to other classes, couldn't command my pet so no point summoning one, charm was to dangerous unless with other skilled players, nukes drew way to much agro, etc. Having something else to contribute would make managing resources more of a challenge as the mez spell/max mana ratio decreases.
There should never EVER be an unbreakable mezz - under ANY cirmstances. Ever.
One thing I would like though is a display for the time remaining on a mezz. Let's say I mezz a goblin. The rest of the team is fighting the rest of the encoutner etc. I turn to throwe a buff or DPS a bit and then return to the goblin I mezzed. I would like to see some sort of display that let's me know that there is MAX time remaining - meaning that when this time runs out, the mezz will break. It "might" break before then, but it WILL break for certain at the end of this timer. Not only that, but if I see this timer getting low - I can remezz the target and the timer will be properly updated. I was thinking similar to the "aura" mechanic this team used in developing EQ2. Enchanters had an ability that let them "sense" the type of mob it was based on the color of the mobs aura (whether they were magic users or healers). Slap this aura on the mob we mezz. As time goes on the aura slowly dissipates down the line (NOT the whole aura slowly fades). When the aura is gone, mezz breaks. But if you re-mezz, the aura is fully displayed again.
If targeted AoE mez is included it would be good if the caster can get hit by it too if he/she is in range, makes it less of a trigger happy spell because you dont want to lock yourself down when you may well be needed most. And i think it is important that mobs health can replenish quicker while they are mezzed so there is a consequence for locking mobs down mid fight to regroup. It would be awesome to see some of the flavourful versions of mez and CC that VG brought to the game included in some form on Pantheon like Kilsin mentioned earlier!
I really like the way it was in EQ Classic and hope that will be the goal however it is implemented. It was based on the skill of the enchanter and the skill of the group. A good enchanter with a focused group would have no problem holding 6 or more mobs indefinatly, where as a poor enchanter, or a chaotic group would die with 2 or 3.
Also EQ was a game where gear helped, but wasnt essential to play some classes(enchanter being one of those). EQ2 and Wow let people compensate for lack of skill with better gear. I think was an unfortunate step I don't want to see happen. OF corse mana pool, hit points and possibly cha will be a factor in longevity, but i hope there are ways for skilled players to over come this until they progress. Skill should always outweigh equipment in the end
A few things I think the enchanter class needs. First and foremost, no cap on mezzable mobs. I don't want to be artificially limited. I want to be able to juggle as much as I can! Don't limit enchanters, let an individual's skill shine! If the mez aura (I'll get to that) somehow indicated the amount of time left on the spell (color wise or something), that would be a neat tipoff for the party to prepare for things. Even though it feels a little like hand-holding, I think that might help. Exact timing though... I'm not sure I'd like that. It would make it too easy. :) I would also really appreciate having a very visible mez effect. An icon or aura or something! Remove the spam of "%t is mezzed! Don't break!". Make sure the party knows without spamming chat. Those macros became so annoying when people clicked multiple times and the log filled up with spam.
Xonth said:I think unmezzables forces the CC artist (enchanter, bard, whoever) to pull out their entire toolbox rather than just having a catch all.I just hope they plan for Mezz to stay a mechanic always. So many games (EQ1 and EQ2) eventually making so much content un-mezz-able to increase difficulty.
My thought is a situation like this:
4 enemy pack, Zealot (fast melee attacks), Archer (fast range attacks), Wizard (slow but devestating range attacks), and Berserker (heavy melee attacks). Zealot, Wizard, and Berserker cannot be mezmerized. So you mes the Archer, Root the Zealot, Charm the Berserker for extra damage and start stunning the wizard as it casts to nullify it's effect.
If they were all mezzable, then you just toss a mez on each (charm one if you want extra damage) and start through one by one, using less skills, and making things far easier.
Now, that's just an example, and I wouldn't expect to come up on groups like that all the time, but I think it demonstrates the idea, that unmezzable just forces you to pull out a different tool. If all you ever needed was a Screwdriver why have a hammer? I think it's one of those shifts in games that needed to happen. I can agree with the idea that 'it's dumb my skill jsut doesn't work' and with that maybe you have varying levels of resistance, so that Zealot might break mezzes quickly where the Archer you are assured of a full duration. Maybe the berserker is really susceptable to these effects which makes charm ideal because you can use his damage for yourself and know that it'll again last most of the full duration where charming the Wizard it'd likely break in a few seconds. A soft 'unmezzable' effect, but still asking you to use more than a single tool for any situation.
Nephretiti said:Seriously - I mean EVER.
I would disagree from an Over powered standpoint as someone who is definitely rolling an enchanter in Pantheon and long time eq enchanter i would have to say it just gives us too much control. Being able to AoE mez with no danger of hitting yourself means that AoE Mez is the answer for everything especially in highly dangerous situations in places like dungerons which would otherwise without it take a cool head and strategy, it can instead be done in one spell then the danger is taken away.
I personally dont want the line to blurred between a hard working enchanter player and a lazy one and you could hardly tell the difference with the results if you have AoE mez up close spell in your arsenal. If your charmed mob breaks and sh!t hits the fan and then as luck would have it you get an add or 2 and everything is going bad, to be able to (from mele) range drop and AoE mez on all the mobs and re charm is WAY to easy, managing a charmed mob needs to be difficult or soloing will be so unbelievably easy for chanters it will be a joke.
The epic power of an enchanter in EQ was partly because the mez spell is badass.. but the real power of an enchanter in EQ comes from practice and focus to get the job done right when to mez and when not to mez. AoE mez without close vacinity self mezzing would take that need for practice away because you have an Oh'sh!t button on tap and i believe those buttons are supposed to come with either massive timers or the possibility of some sort of detremental effect.
I think you have to think about just how powerful the mez spell is, if it is too easy to use it will make content very boring for everyone involved when a chanter is around. An enchanter is one of those classes as EQ puts it in a description somewhere about the class (cant remembr what it actually said) but somthing along the lines of... not for the feint hearted.
Ps i know this is not EQ we are discussing... but i am using it a lot as an example because i think they nailed the CC skills of enchanter so well.
Still no. As the caster of the spell you KNOW what's coming. You know all about the spell. You know when it works and what it works on. It should never EVER affect you as the caster. This does not make it the OP spell you seem to think it is. Mobs can still resist. Some mobs may even reflect it right back at you - which is not the same as casting it on yourself. Some mobs will be affected by the spell - but the duration of the spell will be greatly shortened. Trust me - there is no magic silver bullet when it comes to mezzing. By making it possible to affect yourself you would pretty much much this class worthless.
Healers wont accidently fail a spell and heal the mobs. There was a recent fix put in specifically because Wizzies were blowing themselves up with a fireball cast too close. It was decided that this was not really a good idea.
On the other hand - I could imagine an Ogre trying the spell out for the first time...
Gurd: "What dis spell do?" as he points his fingers at his own head....