Post your ideas on mezz here. I'm thinking of a small buff that is applied to the group if you let a mezz wear off naturally. Perhaps a group rune absorbing x damage duration x secs/mins. A good mezzer is the mezzer who can reapply a mezz just as the old mezz fades, minimizing the amount of mana used on mezzing.
on mezz animation, I'm envisioning a rune above the mobs head, say a pentagram, and as the timer on the mezz counts down, a differet piece of the rune disintegrates, when the last line on the pentagram fades, the mezz wears off. perhaps the mezz animation could be different depending on what level mezz you are using.
I also like the VG Psi ethereal unbreakable mez for any mob in game except ones that can resist that type of spell or mini named/named mobs that are too powerful to be control by such tactics!
Also the Simulacrum was a fantastic image of a mob to distract them and hold them down fighting their own image for a short time.
I'm reluctant to suggest anything that would make CC easier, I learned that lesson in the EQ beta, however I think this would be amazing:
Picture an enchanter establishing a mez on a single creature. Left hand comes up into a fixed position, a single thin bright silver monofilament strand extends from the left hand to the forehead of the NPC. He casts again, only his right hand moving, and a second silver monofilament strand extends from the left hand and attaches to a second NPC forehead. Strand1 on NPC1 starts to fade then it pops to silver dust that quickly disappears, indicating a break in the mez.
I think a symbol above the NPCs heads smacks too much of interface instead of world immersion. Think about it this way.. you suddenly gain the power to put people to sleep in the real world. How would you imagine things would look in the real world? I imagine the person's chin would fall to their chest.. or they'd get a goofy far off look on their face and that would be about it. But what about an indication of my power affecting them? My intuition recalls the books of Jim Butcher and his explanation of Ley Lines. When Dresden focused he was able to see the energy as a physical thing. I imagine in reality if there were some psychic connection maintained by my.. 'spirit/mind combination'.. that I might see these silver monofilaments connecting me to that person. I know.. this is a predisposition created by an impression from a book.. but that's what I see. I would love Pantheon to have the highest level of realism and mature fantasy as possible and dispense with the convergence of my fantasy world and indicators that would look more at home on a CPU health monitor.
I agree with you Xonth, that they've gone a little crazy with making mobs unmezzible in the past. I wonder if there could be different 'granularities' of mez resistance, combatable by the Enchanter's level of concentration. The Enchanter being a master of mind control, if his mind is more focused he can affect better mezes. I don't know what this mechanism would entail, but it would be a sliding scale of some sort that would determine the individual focus of each Enchanter. The Enchanter would be able to, overtime, increase his level of focus to overcome *nearly* all mez resistance.. or on the flip side, an Enchanter who's just playing this character as an alt might not have placed the time and effort into raising his level of mind focus, or consciousness, to the point where overcoming resistance is possible. In conclusion, the Enchanter not only levels his overall skill, or character, but also level's the strength of his mind, the two endeavors not being mutually exclusive.
I don't have a problem with mobs being unmezzable as long as you can employ some sort of CC, be it a root, stun or charm. What i would hate to see is the enchanters getting an arsenal of AE snares *Mezzes* like they now have in EQ. It got to the point where you could PBAE mez lock an unlimited number of mobs within range that were mezzable by chaining one spell. It took a lot of the danger and most of the skill out of playing the class. They eventually nerfed that. Enchanters in EQ used to take a lot of skill and knowledge to play well, i hope Pantheon goes with single target fast casting mez spells or a very limited AE spell with a long reset for the occasional "oh crap" moments rather than making AE spells the norm.
So, what route do we want to go with mezzes? The ability to mezz as many mobs with a breakable mezz as your mana allows, or a limited number of unbreakable mezzes? Personally, I prefer many breakable mezzes.
Reht said:
What i would hate to see is the enchanters getting an arsenal of AE snares *Mezzes* like they now have in EQ.
I liked the targeted ae mezz in EQ1 but if i remember correctly it only worked on mobs up to a certain lvl. The PBAE i remember from my days (i left during the GoD expansion) was only a 10 sec mezz and i treated it more as an AE stun since its duration was so short.
Keiiek said:
So, what route do we want to go with mezzes? The ability to mezz as many mobs with a breakable mezz as your mana allows, or a limited number of unbreakable mezzes? Personally, I prefer many breakable mezzes.
I prefer a limited number of fixed duration mezzes, with diminishing returns. i also advocate having 1 PBAE mezz of like a 10 or 15sec duration for those "oh crap" moments.
Keiiek said:
Reht said:
What i would hate to see is the enchanters getting an arsenal of AE snares *Mezzes* like they now have in EQ.
I liked the targeted ae mezz in EQ1 but if i remember correctly it only worked on mobs up to a certain lvl. The PBAE i remember from my days (i left during the GoD expansion) was only a 10 sec mezz and i treated it more as an AE stun since its duration was so short.
Yeah, but they added additional mesmerization mastery AAs after GOD which further extended the duration of mezzes beyond the cast+recast time of the PBAE mez spells so you could sustain it indefinitely. We used to pull 30-45 mobs ala an old PBAE group, just chain PBAE mez and pick them off one at a time, there was never any down time or loss of potential dps from someone leaving to chain pull. At level 85 they added a new line of free target mez spells (xxxx stare line) that allowed you to mez up to 6 mobs up to 3 levels higher than the level of the spell so at level 105 we can mez level 108 mobs.
Keiiek said:
So, what route do we want to go with mezzes? The ability to mezz as many mobs with a breakable mezz as your mana allows, or a limited number of unbreakable mezzes? Personally, I prefer many breakable mezzes.
I want the main focus to be single target mezzes with maybe a PBAE on a longer recast for those occasional "oh crap" moments, i don't want a single free target or targetted AE mez spell that makes it easy mode. As much as i hate dying to idiots who can't assist or ae by mistake, i always though mezzes should be breakable. Derailing a train in EQ took some skill, now it just takes a well placed AE or two.
What should the maximum duration of a single target mezz be? AoE mezz?
Kilsin said:
I also like the VG Psi ethereal unbreakable mez for any mob in game except ones that can resist that type of spell or mini named/named mobs that are too powerful to be control by such tactics!
Also the Simulacrum was a fantastic image of a mob to distract them and hold them down fighting their own image for a short time.
I wasn't a fan of unbreakable mez personally. I like building my groups with players that can play, unbreakable was easy mode.......challenge us.
Filzin said:Kilsin said:
I also like the VG Psi ethereal unbreakable mez for any mob in game except ones that can resist that type of spell or mini named/named mobs that are too powerful to be control by such tactics!
Also the Simulacrum was a fantastic image of a mob to distract them and hold them down fighting their own image for a short time.
I wasn't a fan of unbreakable mez personally. I like building my groups with players that can play, unbreakable was easy mode.......challenge us.
I can't quote you Fil cause you messed the reply up lol
"I wasn't a fan of unbreakable mez personally. I like building my groups with players that can play, unbreakable was easy mode.......challenge us."
I like building my groups with skillful players too, this is not taking away from that at all man. You can blame the VG devs for breaking the game and giving everyone OP abilities after the level increase to 55 and poor optimisation decisions.
I was referring more to the 1-50 VG when my Psi was my main character for 3 years and was leveled properly (not power levelled to buff/raid/Box) he had 1 single 60 sec Mez that couldn't be broken...51-55 gave us a second one which was OP in my mind and our epic gave us a 3rd which was just broken VG giving everyone too much power plus there were clickies etc that all classes could get to lock down mobs.
I meant just the 1 single spell in the whole game that made the Psi another valuable group/raid member having certain skills like that. Having 6 mobs on your group and being able to take 1 out of the picture was still a critical decision depending on what mobs were attacking, the speed of the Psis reactions and numerous other variables but it was nice to be the top CC class and be wanted for that ability.
I have been leading the charge when it comes to asking for challenge and I do not think 1 spell that is a time limited but unbreakable one is easy by any means. You have to remember too, the Psi wasn't very powerful at lower levels and relied heavily on CC to survive, this 1 mez was very valuable no matter what situation you were in but it did not take anything away or make the game easier and in no way was it "easy-mode", especially when that mezzed mob replenished to max HP/Mana once mezzed and would now have aggro on me while being very squishy ;)
I loved the multi tasking feeling I got with the Psi, I felt busy and always had something to do, whether it was cycling my dot rotations, gathering my extra abilities, holding down specific mobs or trying to save a wipe with aggro management and mob management, if you were not busy when playing a Psi from levels 1-50 you were not playing it properly!
It's my opinion that Enchanter mezz capabilities should be given no handicaps. Regardless of random break or any other factor, there are people who will still become very proficient with CC. Pre-expansion EQ in comparison to VG is a good example. In EQ not just anyone could be an Enchanter. You had to have a talent for it. A good enchanter would be on the move at all times frantically controlling the situation. In VG there were challenges, but it required less situational awareness and 'busy work'. I have to say that a more challenging CC environment keeps an Enchanter on their toes and helps us to stand out. You have no need to do damage, as what you are bringing to the group is more valuable (though I do agree that some other valuable skill needs to augment CC for the times when you're in certain raid situations where CC is not necessary). It's a rare thing in an MMO to have a group verbally applaud an individual at the end of the night.. but for the engaged Enchanter it's all too common. I want to be seat of my pants dominating the situation to an obvious and memorable degree. As I said earlier in the thread, I appealed to Verant to make mezzing easier during EQ development and was politely denied every time. Later as I rocked a train with finesse, I would reflect on the fact that what I had previously seen as a curse would become my reward.. I had attained a hard won personal skill.. and I was shocked to realize that it was part of their plan all along.
I agree with AE mez being a capability, but valuable for exceptions rather than common situations, as stated. Great enchanter discourse on these boards. It's good to be in the company of fellow psionic professionals :) I'm so excited to get back in the saddle! Can't wait!
In my opinion Everquest is still the only game where players were given the skillset to truly maximize the potential of the enchanter. Between the CC ability, highly demanded buffs (can i tip for crack?), and ability to charm... the enchanter was one of the few classes where the skill of the player could immediately be detected by others. Whether the player was horrible, mediocre, or great... it was highly noticeable. This mechanic really allowed for the ones who mastered the skillset to shine. I really hope with Pantheon that mastering the enchanter requires the same amount of skill as it did in EQ. I will say one thing though. I hope that enchanters arent limited to only being able to mez 1 mob at a time (oh noes guys we got 2 adds and I can only mez 1 of them.. which one should i mez?). The thing I love most about the enchanter is the ability to CC as many mobs as the players skill allows. This really allowed players to never forget that beast enchanter they got the pleasure of grouping with who locked down every KC train that got dumped on their group! I also hope their buff set is very similar to that of EQ... mana regen, rune, magic resist, etc etc. I know I keep comparing everything to EQ... but I think we all agree (including the dev team) that EQ style play is what is missing in todays MMOs.
Keiiek said:
What should the maximum duration of a single target mezz be? AoE mezz?
I dont know what a max durtation mezz should be but I personally dont like artificial caps on how many mobs a person can control. I think the that should depend on the player skill and group skill. I hope there is a great mix of mez/stuns that allows the player to really test themselves. I dont mind diminishing returns on them either. I played a Psion in all of VG beta and into live. If I recall earlier in beta I could control a decent amount of mobs. As we got closer to live and into live I think they reduced it to a hard cap of 3. Its been a long time so I cant remember if that is totally accurate. With all that said I very much look forward that is bringing back classes with utility.
In a way I liked that mez caused aggro, so if someone did an AOE spell and broke your mez the mobs would some after you. It forces everyone to be aware and work together.
I think the mob should definitely have some chance to resist (and then aggro on the enchanter) so you have to have strategies to deal with that. Maybe based on some stat so if you want a really strong mez you have to boost that stat.
I'm not a big fan of an unbreakable mez. What about treating it like root in EQ where it could randomly break if the mob got hit by a large enough damage spell. Or you could treat it like a rune spell where the mob didn't take damage but the mez did and once it took enough it breaks.
I like when things can take two paths and you have to have strategies to handle both. So I like things that either randomly break or can break early or have some type of limitation, or maybe can be broken by a counter spell, etc so that you have to have tools and strategies to deal with recovering.
I also think how it interacts with other spells matters. The stuns in EQ eventually got long enough you could get off a mez during them if you timed it just right.
IMHO randomness and unpredictability are essential because they require the player to have strategies to deal with multiple possible outcomes.
Kayd said:
In a way I liked that mez caused aggro, so if someone did an AOE spell and broke your mez the mobs would some after you. It forces everyone to be aware and work together.
I think the mob should definitely have some chance to resist (and then aggro on the enchanter) so you have to have strategies to deal with that. Maybe based on some stat so if you want a really strong mez you have to boost that stat.
I'm not a big fan of an unbreakable mez. What about treating it like root in EQ where it could randomly break if the mob got hit by a large enough damage spell. Or you could treat it like a rune spell where the mob didn't take damage but the mez did and once it took enough it breaks.
I like when things can take two paths and you have to have strategies to handle both. So I like things that either randomly break or can break early or have some type of limitation, or maybe can be broken by a counter spell, etc so that you have to have tools and strategies to deal with recovering.
I also think how it interacts with other spells matters. The stuns in EQ eventually got long enough you could get off a mez during them if you timed it just right.
IMHO randomness and unpredictability are essential because they require the player to have strategies to deal with multiple possible outcomes.
I like what you mentioned about mez and aggro. It is definitely another thing to caution when CC tons of mobs. I remember when PoP first came out and some friends and I went into crypt of decay for some AA exp. We had our enchanter with us and he was able to charm some bad ass mob and we tore through the mobs nicely with the help of that pet. However if the charm broke and our paladin wasnt ready to stun that thing it would one shot the enchanter and usually take a few others out as well if not the whole group. That happened a couple of times but our paladin was usually on top of it. Its dynamics like this that make for fun grouping experiences.
I agree with both @Raroic and @Kayd on this. I like the idea of all spells (not just cc) having some built in non-zero% chance of failing, being resisted or somehow lessened, based on proficiency of both the player and the target. However, regardless of skill/spell proficiency that non-zero% chance will always be present, occasionally resulting in the need for you or group members to perform additional actions (cc, taunt, feign death, etc). If said actions are not taken or unsuccessful then undesirable consequences will occur, much like the scenario @Raroic described above.
Enchanter was my main for all of my EQ1 career. It was the greatest character I have ever played in any MMO and miss it greatly. After playing both EQ1 and VG chanters for a decade and more combined I would perfectly be happy copying the EQ1 chanter exactly in Pantheon.
I have dreams about high density unlinked mobs... (so does my monk friends).
Reht said:
I don't have a problem with mobs being unmezzable as long as you can employ some sort of CC, be it a root, stun or charm. What i would hate to see is the enchanters getting an arsenal of AE snares *Mezzes* like they now have in EQ. It got to the point where you could PBAE mez lock an unlimited number of mobs within range that were mezzable by chaining one spell. It took a lot of the danger and most of the skill out of playing the class. They eventually nerfed that. Enchanters in EQ used to take a lot of skill and knowledge to play well, i hope Pantheon goes with single target fast casting mez spells or a very limited AE spell with a long reset for the occasional "oh crap" moments rather than making AE spells the norm.
I played an enchanter main in EQ from launch through Omens. I can certainly agree with all points here. A long casting though short duration PBAE mez for "oh ****" moments with a long recast timer, coupled with a faster casting single target mez. I loved the purplish-white veil spell effect that drapped around the mob when mezzed. I thought the spell effect was prefect... very bold and unmistakable.
That said, I would prefer to do away with any timers, floating icons, and other UI indicators of mezzed mobs. The challenge for the enchanter is to keep track of this stuff, and for the group to pay attention as well. This is the challenge that should separate the good from the great, not the ability to read the UI or what mod the enchanter has installed.
Standard mezz should be:
Emergency mezz should be:
AE mezz should be:
It's just one tool in the toolkit, so every type of mezz should be breakable prior to max duration. Any dmg to the mob should break mezz, period. If the enchanter toolkit is standard mind control stuff, then memblur, stun, root, snare, slow, etc all mitigate the downside to mezz breaks. Personally, I favor root and memblur, then when the dopey DPS who broke mezz the first time once again break the root, I let them have that aggro they are trying so hard to get. Fine by me, I'll be helping the tank and healer, have fun with your new friend.
Now, as far as caps...I figure cast times and duration of the spell pretty much handles that. How ever many mobs can be mezzed inside the duration window = the soft cap on mezz. As far visual indicators go, if the mob starts beating on my enchanter, I guess mezz is down. visual timers are there to help the not-so-skilled appear ahead of the curve. Any enchanter with legit group grinding time has timers built into their skull after about the 10th or so smack down from not having it, and they don't need visual indicators of what they just know and feel.
