Forums » The Enchanter

Brainstorming the Enchanter

    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 2:53 PM PST

    I know there's quite a few fellow Enchanters on these forums and I would like to use this thread as the one stop shop for ideas concerning the Enchanter class for Pantheon. In my humble opinion EQ1 had the Enchanter class just about right in terms of crowd control, but was seriously lacking when it came to dealing damage outside of charms. It was bad enough that I rarely used the DD and DoTs that EQ1 gave the Enchanter. I liked how VG made the Psionicist (Enchanter) the king of DoTs. Who better to have dotting mobs up than the one who gets the most pissed when their mezzed mobs are dotted :) If dealing significant damage in conjunction with superior CC makes the Enchanter too powerful, i would at least like for our DD and dots to have some serious debuffs associated with them. Discuss!

    • 353 posts
    February 5, 2015 3:13 PM PST

    one of the things i have been thinking of for a while is enchanter buffs. in eq Enchanter buffs were really lacking for the melee classes. so here is my idea. how about enchanters being able to "Enchant" Gear? if one of my dps classes could group with a class that gives them a 2% crit bonus that counts like a gear bonus instead of a buff taking a buff slot that is a group i would never leave.

     

    to my mind dots with debuffs attached seems to be the realm of shaman rather than Enchanter.

     

    Necro always will be and always has been king of DoTs

    • 70 posts
    February 5, 2015 3:20 PM PST

    Mind control is the foundation of the Enchanter.  If we test our ideas against that then we stay on track.

     

    I'd love to see a mob repeatedly ram it's head into the closest wall.  That would be good crowd control.. damage over time.. and just plain fun!

     

    I'm reluctant to suggest anything that would make CC easier, I learned that lesson in the EQ beta, however I think this would be amazing: 

    Picture an enchanter establishing a mez on a single creature.  Left hand comes up into a fixed position, a single thin bright silver monofilament strand extends from the left hand to the forehead of the NPC.  He casts again, only his right hand moving, and a second silver monofilament strand extends from the left hand and attaches to a second NPC forehead.  Strand1 on NPC1 starts to fade then it pops to silver dust that quickly disappears, indicating a break in the mez.


    This post was edited by Jitai at February 5, 2015 7:09 PM PST
    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 4:10 PM PST

    on mezz animation, I'm envisioning a rune above the mobs head, say a pentagram, and as the timer on the mezz counts down, a differet piece of the rune disintegrates, when the last line on the pentagram fades, the mezz wears off. perhaps the mezz animation could be different depending on what level mezz you are using.

    • 70 posts
    February 5, 2015 5:13 PM PST

    I think a symbol above the NPCs heads smacks too much of interface instead of world immersion.  Think about it this way..  you suddenly gain the power to put people to sleep in the real world.  How would you imagine things would look in the real world?  I imagine the person's chin would fall to their chest.. or they'd get a goofy far off look on their face and that would be about it.  But what about an indication of my power affecting them?  My intuition recalls the books of Jim Butcher and his explanation of Ley Lines.  When Dresden focused he was able to see the energy as a physical thing.  I imagine in reality if there were some psychic connection maintained by my.. 'spirit/mind combination'.. that I might see these silver monofilaments connecting me to that person.  I know.. this is a predisposition created by an impression from a book.. but that's what I see.  I would love Pantheon to have the highest level of realism and mature fantasy as possible and dispense with the convergence of my fantasy world and indicators that would look more at home on a CPU health monitor.

    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 5:20 PM PST

    i'm hoping i'm going to be mezzing many mobs at the same time in this game ala EQ1. I'm not sure i want a string attatching me to 9 mezzed mobs. I would imagine that being annoying to other players especially as you move about.

     

    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 5:26 PM PST

    I'm thinking we should focus our discussions to one subject at a time, hammer it out really well, and i'll post them in the OP as bullet points to make it easier to get an overview at a glance. i foresee this thread becoming quite long. Lets start with buffs, and different ways to buff ourselves, our group mates, and our raids.

    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 5:30 PM PST

    Here's the Enchanter spell lists of the 3 MMORPG's i've played.

    EQ1

    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spelllist.html?name=&type=enc&level=1&opt=And+Higher&action=search

    EQ2 Illusionist

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/54752

    EQ2 Coercer

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/54742

    Vanguard Psionicist

    http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Psionicist


    This post was edited by Keiiek at July 28, 2015 7:27 AM PDT
    • 1012 posts
    February 5, 2015 5:50 PM PST

    A nice enchantment line of spells that may fall in line with Pantheon's vision is to enchant weapons with elemental attributes such as fire, ice, light, dark, etc.  If environment is going to play a big part in Pantheon, then having elemental buffs would do so as well.

     

    I personally would rather have enchanters be kings/queens of charms and crowd controls like EQ, with utility spells: haste, slow, mana regen etc. with some utility buffs as aforementioned tailored specifically for Pantheon's vision.  I want Pantheon's classes to have uniqueness within the classes and not have Enchanters with the best crowd control and DoT DPS.   I believe the best crowd control abilities should come at the price of having lower DPS (including DoTs).

    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 5:57 PM PST

    I'm thinking of a small buff that is applied to the group if you let a mezz wear off naturally. Perhaps a group rune absorbing x damage duration x secs/mins. A good mezzer is the mezzer who can reapply a mezz just as the old mezz fades, minimizing the amount of mana used on mezzing.


    This post was edited by Keiiek at February 5, 2015 5:57 PM PST
    • Moderator
    • 9255 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:00 PM PST
    Keiiek said:

    I'm thinking we should focus our discussions to one subject at a time, hammer it out really well, and i'll post them in the OP as bullet points to make it easier to get an overview at a glance. i foresee this thread becoming quite long. Lets start with buffs, and different ways to buff ourselves, our group mates, and our raids.

    That is a really good idea Keiiek.

    I would suggest creating a new thread in the classes sub forum titled "whatever mechanic or ability you want to focus on" and go from there, for instance start a new thread titled "Mezzing and it's mechanics" and then dedicate that thread to just mezzing discussion.

    This will also make it a lot easier for when we implement "Class Leads" so they can just go through well titled threads and see all the consolidated idea's in easy to read formats in their own threads, which also helps when people utilise the "Search" function, if it ever gets used...lol ;)

    I would suggest all classes use this method and we will do our best to help keep specific threads on topic, if for any reason you have a issue or feel the thread is off topic, please use the "Report" function to alert us to it and we will help put it back on track for you :)

    • 70 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:01 PM PST

    Yeah I played each of those too.  I was a very active Enchanter tester in EQ1 beta and I had the same thought back then, but I don't think it was practical at the time due to system limitations.  The way I stated it in the enhancement request, if I recall is "Mesmerize should link enchanter to mezzed by translucent tether similar to Find Path animation."  I don't recall why it was rejected, but if I had to guess I'd say it was because it made mezzing too easy.  As I said in a previous post:

     

    "I bugged the hell out of Verant during EQ1 beta to make mezzing easier.  They politely shut me down every time.  Later, as I rocked a train, I would reflect on the fact that I'd gained a hard won PERSONAL SKILL that allowed me to keep a large crowd mezzed without looking at a clock, and.. this is import.. *not everyone could do it*.. they knew all along that what I saw as a curse was to be my reward."

     

    As to buffs/debuffs I would say go through that old list of buffs and scrap anything added since EQ1 that isn't related to mind control. 

    • 70 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:10 PM PST

    I think the perception is that discourse turned to disagreement.  We were on the subject of mez and it shifted to buffs...  

     

    Collaboration not contention is my goal :)  Go ahead and delete all of my posts in this thread.


    This post was edited by Jitai at February 5, 2015 7:09 PM PST
    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:14 PM PST

    I really liked the idea of Mindspy in Vanguard, but didnt like that it was so general ie this type of mob only yeilds these three spells, that type of mob only yeilds those 3 spells. To hell with that, i want one spell that i can cast on a mob and pluck one random ability in its repertoire from its mind. if i cast it on a goblin firemage, i want the chance to pluck his fireball DD spell from his mind and use it on him, or his fire resist buff and use it on me. after its used you forget it and have to recast mindspy again. I'm thinking this should be a non agro incurring spell, so you could run along, spot a mob and pluck it's ability from its head and hold it in reserve until you do enter battle. i can see this spell making up for an EQ1 Enchanters' deficiency in the damage department.

    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:19 PM PST

    oh, no. i didn't mean it like that, buddy. We can stick to the Mezz conversation if you want. The next post down from my OP was concerning buffs, so that's where my line of thinking was. i do like the concept of your mezz threads, and was just voicing my concerns on the idea. I'm easy going and welcome constructive criticism :)


    This post was edited by Keiiek at February 5, 2015 6:20 PM PST
    • 70 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:26 PM PST

    Sorry bout that.. didn't mean to jump around.  I think I got overly excited about the subject and started writing my post as the previous person posted heheh.  I like your and Kilsin's idea of compartmentalizing.  I wonder if it would be worth creating a sub structure within the class subforum of something like Melee/Ranged/Abilities/Spells,Damage/Spells,Debuffs/Spells,Utility?

    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:27 PM PST

    ok, i'm going to do as Kilsin Suggested and make some sub-posts, feel free to add more as i might not be able to think of everything right away :) Copy any posts you've made here and paste them to the appropriate sub forum, pretty please :)

     


    This post was edited by Keiiek at February 5, 2015 6:34 PM PST
    • Moderator
    • 9255 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:53 PM PST
    Jitai said:

    I think the perception is that discourse turned to disagreement.  We were on the subject of mez and it shifted to buffs...  

     

    Collaboration not contention is my goal :)  Go ahead and delete all of my posts in this thread.

    Oh no one has done anything wrong, this thread was created for general Enchanter brainstorming and it serves it's purpose well, so well in fact that Keiiek has a great idea to divide the idea's into separate threads for easier consolidation!

    This thread will not have any posts deleted or moved and people are welcome to add general musings freely to this topic of discussion, I just picked up Keiiek's idea and ran with it as this is something that I had documented in a report I put forward to Chris about Class Leads a few months ago now, so it will help everyone in the long run if we start organising our thoughts into categories now :)

    Please don't feel like you have done anything wrong though mate, this discussion lead to a great idea, which we are now acting on, you were part of history! lol :)

    • Moderator
    • 9255 posts
    February 5, 2015 6:56 PM PST
    Keiiek said:

    ok, i'm going to do as Kilsin Suggested and make some sub-posts, feel free to add more as i might not be able to think of everything right away :) Copy any posts you've made here and paste them to the appropriate sub forum, pretty please :)

     

    This is also a good idea, this thread can brainstorm the idea's and then from it, pasting them into new threads to get more specific and direct feedback on single topics would work well.

    Please don't edit any posts though, they will need to remain here for reference and to let others know that something has been suggested. We wouldn't want multiple threads on the same subject popping up so this can serve as a thread starting thread, if that makes sense...lol

    Again, nice idea Keiiek :)

    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 7:05 PM PST

    As to buffs/debuffs I would say go through that old list of buffs and scrap anything added since EQ1 that isn't related to mind control. 

     

    I totally agree with this

     


    This post was edited by Keiiek at February 5, 2015 7:05 PM PST
    • 157 posts
    February 5, 2015 7:36 PM PST

    what if you could make a mob cannibalize itself? i can imagine a goblin eating its own arm. this would be a  stun DoT ;)


    This post was edited by Keiiek at February 5, 2015 7:37 PM PST
    • 333 posts
    February 6, 2015 6:46 AM PST

    Personally, like Raiden said, i want classes to be different enough from their EQ/VG counterparts to where it doesn't feel like playing the same class i have already played over the last 14 years all over again.  If we just recycle the same class from a different game it's going to dilute the gameplay experience.  Let chanters be the masters of charming or mezzing, not both.  Let chanters have dots or nukes, not both.  Let them be the masters of beneficial buffing or debuffing, but not both.   Dare to be different, i wish the dev team would go back to something akin to the original class concepts rather than reinventing the wheel with incredibly EQesque classes.

    • 353 posts
    February 6, 2015 7:18 AM PST
    Reht said:

    Personally, like Raiden said, i want classes to be different enough from their EQ/VG counterparts to where it doesn't feel like playing the same class i have already played over the last 14 years all over again.  If we just recycle the same class from a different game it's going to dilute the gameplay experience.  Let chanters be the masters of charming or mezzing, not both.  Let chanters have dots or nukes, not both.  Let them be the masters of beneficial buffing or debuffing, but not both.   Dare to be different, i wish the dev team would go back to something akin to the original class concepts rather than reinventing the wheel with incredibly EQesque classes.

    I agree with this to a point. nobody wants a Bard class running around making all other classes obsolete, but there is no reason why a class cant have a Major role, a minor role and some type of utility.

    since this is the enchanter thread i will use

     

    Enchanter.

    Major Role = Crowd Control - the enchanter uses magic to subdue the enemy weather by charming and turning them on their allies or by putting them to sleep each has a different use for a different time

    Minor role = Casted DPS - The enchanter has some knowledge of the arts of Wizardry. give em some DD nukes or elemental DOTS but nothing on par with an actual dps caster.

    Utility = a unique buff or 2 to the class. like the weapon enchants i posted about in the enchantment thread.

     

    in my mind a class that specializes in CC needs to Mezz and Charm. sometimes you may not want to charm a mob, sometimes you may not want to mezz one. now for the minor role and the utility slot i agree one or the other. but to compare i will now do Wizard

     

    Wizard

    Major Role = Casted DPS Elemental Dots and DD nukes each has a time when useful.

    Minor Role = Debuffing. Mainly dropping the Elemental resists so the Wiz spells land easier.

    Utility = Transportation. Quick evac, travel to far reaching destinations Air Archmagus has you covered!!!

     

    so in my opinion the major role would have the most options, the minor role would have a good spread of options, and the utility would be just a couple spells that add usefulness and individuality.


    This post was edited by Gawd at February 6, 2015 1:54 PM PST
    • 70 posts
    February 6, 2015 7:39 AM PST

    I don't think the Enchanter should be synonymous in any way with a Wizard.  Looking at it as "The Enchanter is another kind of wizard with different spells" kind of diminishes the class.  All Enchanter abilities should be based on mind control (their mind and others' minds), nothing elemental.  I don't see this as being potentially restrictive, just distinctive.  The psionic category should be the litmus test for Enchanter spells.

    • 1012 posts
    February 6, 2015 7:44 AM PST

    @Jitai

     

    Agreed with the uniqueness point for the enchanter.  And, this is one aspect where I liked VG better than EQ with the expansion into mental damage/resist.