I played and leveled several enchanters, I think it's in the best interest of the game to make each class as challenging as possible, with a lot of dynamic elements that require strategy and on the fly decision making, but not necessarily high APM (actions per minutes). To me, it's important to allow enough complexity that the classes are not burdensome but allow room for creativity, uniqueness, and for better players to distinguish themselves. I would expect when someone clicks Enchanter on Character creation they're warned that Enchanters are difficult to play. I think that's fair and in line with EQ.
My idea.. instead of traditional fixed duration mez that was either fully resist and massive agro, how about a system that would work something more along these lines.. Unless a mob is immune to mez outright (raid mob, npc, etc), even a red mob would be mez'able but the duration of the mez will vary and favor much shorter mez's the higher level a mob is (instead of an outright resist). The mez duration could be easily approximated by the animation of the mez, and should show the mez wearing off per second by the animation. For example an animation could be a prison falling apart, or a chamber disintegrating, or just an aura fading, whatever is the most visually appealing. The kicker here being the enchanter can then reinforce the spell with a channeled ability, potentially with different levels of reinforcement. The higher level reinforcement takes more mana per second but brings the mez duration back quicker, the trade off of the higher reinforcement skill would be less mana efficient. Perhaps higher level enchanters can reinforce 2 mobs at once but with a diminished effect on both (50%?) but this can be countered by using a higher level reinforce, but again will take more mana/sec. Reinforcing mez on higher level mobs (yellows, reds) would take more mana/sec than reinforcing mez on low blues/greens which would reinforce much faster. Shouldn't higher level enchanters be able to mez lower levels easier, and lower levels struggle to keep higher level mobs under control?
I also could see the channeling method used for replenishing charm, instead of having a random duration charm where I have to have an audio trigger just to tell me when it breaks so I can go to the bathroom. Let me reinforce it as I please, also the higher level I want to charm the more reinforcement should cost to maintain it. To hold a white mob charmed it might take constant reinforcement, but blues or greens might only need to be reinforced every so many pulls.
Also if the plan is to split enchanters into CC/Charm paths, the charmers would be discounted on reinforcement and number of mobs they can control. Perhaps the mobs get a buff while enchanter is reinforcing them, more dmg, etc. The CC path would discount reinforcement on Mez, allow more mobs to be reinforced simultaneously, etc.
Just some ideas I had, feel free to criticize or improve on them.
I only played an Enchanter for like 15 or so levels in EQ but I did love the VG Psionicist, which was my main for around 3 years before I switched back to Kilsin, my Rogue!
I loved the Psi class, it was very well done, had some great new concepts, especially the "Thought Pulse" spell that ramped up in damage (it damaged the enemy and yourself) and could actually kill you if you overloaded it and didn't manage it properly, which was one of the best spells I have seen in any MMO to date, sadly SOE nerfed it around GU6 but that type of spell management and sense of danger is what we are missing!
Plus I loved the mix of DoTs, Direct Damage and having best CC in game with some perma mezes and some instant/breakable/short duration ones for situational events and reactions, which was another thing that I loved about VG, the amount of spells and abilities was awesome, so much to choose from, it actually took skill to know your spells/abilities to be able to play your class properly and know what to use and when to use it, then introducing macros would completely open up the classes to personal customisations etc, I really enjoyed VG combat and spells/abilities and hope to see something very similar in PRotF...
I love the idea of a spell that damages or weakens you to hurt the enemy...In Rift they had a buff type mage soul (the Archon) that would lower its own skills / stats and whatever to buff the party or debuff the enemy. I also would love to see spells that could hurt the caster unintentionally, as a mage in EQ you had to be careful on what mob you centered your rain spell because if it was to close you would get hit with the spell too, I played a chanter in EQ up until I got the AOE mez (lower level spell, like 14 iirc) and every time I cast it I would mez myself. Necros would kill themselves with the Specter line of spells (where they slowly drained health to turn to mana). Make spell casting not just randomly pressing buttons but something you have to think about.
Personally, i would like see a feature kind of like DAOC had. The BAF (bring a friend) code, was a system where the game generated adds and you would get them based upon the number of people in your group and/or the number of people who assisted your group on your last few mobs over the last few minutes. This was used in addition to linking, calls for help and scouts. O course not all mobs had BAF code, but i kind of liked the pack mentality that happened with it. It always seemed ludicrous to me that a single mob, no matter how dumb, would think it would be a smart move to chase and then subsequently attack a full group of armed adventurers by itself instead of immediately calling for or hightailing it back to its 3 buddies standing immediately. Something like this would make group tactics more important because you would always have to prepare to cc or offtank adds on every pull. Unfortunately this could have some ramifications on certain pulling mechanics if they are planned to mirror their EQ counterparts, such as FD splitting. Of course i don't want this game to be another EQ, i want a game that has some of the ideals that made EQ, VG and other games great but ends up having its own identity, which is why i would love to the classes be different from their EQ/VG counterparts and was incredibly disappointed when they were changed from the original concept.
Zircon said:
I played and leveled several enchanters, I think it's in the best interest of the game to make each class as challenging as possible, with a lot of dynamic elements that require strategy and on the fly decision making, but not necessarily high APM (actions per minutes). To me, it's important to allow enough complexity that the classes are not burdensome but allow room for creativity, uniqueness, and for better players to distinguish themselves. I would expect when someone clicks Enchanter on Character creation they're warned that Enchanters are difficult to play. I think that's fair and in line with EQ.
My idea.. instead of traditional fixed duration mez that was either fully resist and massive agro, how about a system that would work something more along these lines.. Unless a mob is immune to mez outright (raid mob, npc, etc), even a red mob would be mez'able but the duration of the mez will vary and favor much shorter mez's the higher level a mob is (instead of an outright resist). The mez duration could be easily approximated by the animation of the mez, and should show the mez wearing off per second by the animation. For example an animation could be a prison falling apart, or a chamber disintegrating, or just an aura fading, whatever is the most visually appealing. The kicker here being the enchanter can then reinforce the spell with a channeled ability, potentially with different levels of reinforcement. The higher level reinforcement takes more mana per second but brings the mez duration back quicker, the trade off of the higher reinforcement skill would be less mana efficient. Perhaps higher level enchanters can reinforce 2 mobs at once but with a diminished effect on both (50%?) but this can be countered by using a higher level reinforce, but again will take more mana/sec. Reinforcing mez on higher level mobs (yellows, reds) would take more mana/sec than reinforcing mez on low blues/greens which would reinforce much faster. Shouldn't higher level enchanters be able to mez lower levels easier, and lower levels struggle to keep higher level mobs under control?
I also could see the channeling method used for replenishing charm, instead of having a random duration charm where I have to have an audio trigger just to tell me when it breaks so I can go to the bathroom. Let me reinforce it as I please, also the higher level I want to charm the more reinforcement should cost to maintain it. To hold a white mob charmed it might take constant reinforcement, but blues or greens might only need to be reinforced every so many pulls.
Also if the plan is to split enchanters into CC/Charm paths, the charmers would be discounted on reinforcement and number of mobs they can control. Perhaps the mobs get a buff while enchanter is reinforcing them, more dmg, etc. The CC path would discount reinforcement on Mez, allow more mobs to be reinforced simultaneously, etc.
Just some ideas I had, feel free to criticize or improve on them.
There are some really good ideas in here. It sounds to me that you would like playing an Enchanter to be a more active experience, rather than a more passive one. Rather than mezzing a mob and sitting back down, preparing for it to break, you many chose to actively work to keep the mob mezzed for a longer duration. As a result, spending your resources to control one mob may or may not be worth the cost of doing so, and therefore making certain choices will lead to tangible consequences and rewards. The scenarios a group might face are incalculable, which will make it exceedingly difficult to determine what the "correct" course of action is, or was in hindsight. I think there's something here for sure; great stuff!
Though Enchanter/Psyonisist/etc has never been my "main" I have always loved the idea of these classes and enjoy playing them casually. I think to role of CC classes are vitally important, and their presences generally signifies a game with mechanics that I enjoy. For some reason, the mechanics of the Enchanter fascinate me unlike any other class (I must have been Charmed lol), even with relatively little experience actually playing the archetype. The fact that there was ever a game that was difficult enough to require a class specialized solely in controlling adds/mobs is simply brilliant. I plan to delve a bit deeper into the EQ Enchanter in the coming months via P99, as I still haven't ruled the class out as a contender for my Pantheon main (though admittedly, it is a long shot).
I have been playing Enchanters and Rangers all the time. Played much less a couple of other classes.
I have still my main Enchanter on P99 too. The reason was that the EQ enchanter was designed to really shine in groups and I like only group play - soloing is a torture.
I agree that Enchanter should be challenging like it was in EQ. I hope there wont be some enchanter subclasses - just 1 pure class.
As for the mez, actually I find it realistic that a mob fully resists and then gets really crazy wanting to repaint the walls with the enchanter's brains.
Aftar all that's what the resist magic is for. So a highly MR mob should only be mezzed with caution.
Actually it was part of my fun to make a list of mobs with estimated MRs acquired by (sometimes deadly :)) experience.
Like Kilsin I loved the VG PSI class, it was the most fun I ever had with a CC class. though unlike him I started with a ranger then my main switched to a PSI, I ended up with three of them from 10 to 50+ levels. There were some places that were nightmares with out a PSI on your side, especially Lyceum Keep. Some of the rooms were nine pulls. But with a crafty PSI and two tanks, they were easily handled. I also thoguth similcrum was just a great spell, and one of my PSi favs. Though classifie3d as CC, a PSI was reall BC, they had the spelsl to control the entire battlefield, aggro reducers, enhancers, mez, stun, time stops, charms, with alittle DPS tossed in for good measure.
Speaking of great unique classes and spells, Bloodmages in VG were also one of the coolest classes, they had a great group damage buff that spread all damage taken over the entire group. Not a stretch then to realize the were also group heal oriented.
The more I speak of Vanguard, the more I miss the game.
Nikademis said:
There are some really good ideas in here. It sounds to me that you would like playing an Enchanter to be a more active experience, rather than a more passive one. Rather than mezzing a mob and sitting back down, preparing for it to break, you many chose to actively work to keep the mob mezzed for a longer duration. As a result, spending your resources to control one mob may or may not be worth the cost of doing so, and therefore making certain choices will lead to tangible consequences and rewards. The scenarios a group might face are incalculable, which will make it exceedingly difficult to determine what the "correct" course of action is, or was in hindsight. I think there's something here for sure; great stuff!
Thanks! Exactly what I was going for, I'd rather see all classes maintain their core function/role but do so in a more active and engaging capacity. Right now the correct course of action for the enchanter is usually obvious, tash/mez the adds, wait the specified time, mez again. If the mobs are higher level and might resist then start re-mez early so you can do multiple recasts before it breaks if needed.
What I was suggesting was not to do away with resists, but if an enchanter tried to mez a mob +10 levels it would likely be a 3-4 second initial mez, need to be reinforced immediately but drain the enchanters mana pool in seconds to maintain it, acting as a soft cap. Once this mez is broken it would be huge agro, like normal. My imo, crowd control should be more of an art form, a puzzle with many solutions and different approaches/styles with a constant balance of efficiency and risk.
It makes sense from a realism perspective. It should be easier to keep a bunch of deep blues mez'd, than the same number of whites/yellows.
Kilsin said:
I loved the Psi class, it was very well done, had some great new concepts, especially the "Thought Pulse" spell that ramped up in damage (it damaged the enemy and yourself) and could actually kill you if you overloaded it and didn't manage it properly, which was one of the best spells I have seen in any MMO to date, sadly SOE nerfed it around GU6 but that type of spell management and sense of danger is what we are missing!
I really missed it when they changed both Thought Pulse on the PSI class and Chaos Volley on Sorc . Both abilities would damage you and both abilities could kill you if you abused them . Great fun while it lasted.
PSI was my main as well and is still today my favorite class of all time from any game. It made me enjoy crowd control. I loved the different ways to keep a mob busy. That kept it interesting. On the surface a PSI had limited CC but charm, sim, AE mez and the normal mez gave you lots of options.
Like others I played a Psi in VG for awhile, still remember going into my first dungeon and my only job was just CC, forget damage just keep those mobs locked down they said, and when your cc'ing 3-4 mobs at once and mind controlling another, CC really was a full time job. That's something I would like to see again, Crowd control in a Group/raid become a full time job again.
VG Psi on Sartok. loved that class, especially in Raid vs Raid PVP.
and a Disciple on the Telon server after pvp went away.
I loved the fact you could control the abilities of the monsters you had charmed, as well as stealing abilities from monsters to learn for yourself. Which became very handy during some APW boss raids. Arthriss comes to mind, charm the add to use its ability on her and remove one of her abilities.
Agro control was another great aspect. Lower one persons hate and feed hate to another person, effectivly lowering and raising someone on the agro list. EQ's mem blur's complete hate list wipe was nice but I liked the more refined control in VG, it also wasn't class specific most classes could feed hate in some way or at least lower their own.
One warning, since I play a crowd controller and/or death caster of some sort in every MMO they are available - the game won't need to make CC difficult at the outset because CC will get nerfed when the developers see it being used effectively, particularly on content they wanted to have acting as a progress gate. Bank on it. Brad still worked for Verant/SOE when enchanters were getting their toolkits wrecked in Kunark and then even harder in Velious. If there is a dungeon/camp where they feel mezz/stun/charm/etc will make it easier than they like, bank on CC immunity almost across the board in that zone.
Kael Drakkel? The Hole? The outer planes? Half the mobs in every raid zone? Etc etc. Kael is the most famous and obvious "we never meant for THAT to happen" nerf of enchanters, but mezz, stun, memblur, slow, tash, root and charm on one spell bar is FORMIDABLE and makes even difficult content trivial. Whenever the devs want that content to be hard no matter what, it will be.
The template is there - EQ1 enchanter + VG psi + AO bureaucrat = perfect amalgamation of a pure utility caster. The question is whether the devs allow for one class to make most of their single group and yard trash raid content trivial?
Yes yes yes, not much to input here that others have said already or i have said on other mez threads in enchanter forum, but mez is by far the most powerful spell in the game and it needs to be done in a way that has drawbacks mez should give enchanters a lot of power with plenty of danger in return. I am loving all the creativee ideas that were implemented in VG for the psi class, I only playe it for a little bit and there was no one online at that time so i was pretty much soloing and couldnt experience the full in group power for the Psi, but i abslutely loved the full time job of being an enchanter in difficult EQ fights and i loved the excitement and danger that using charm offered for its MASSIVE reward of epic dps / tanking / healing whatever you wanted it to be depending on who you charmed. Most intense and rewarding class i have ever played in any game!
I played an Enchanter in EQ for almost 10 years and have done it all and been through many challenging and fun scenarios. I will be honest that a big reason I am rolling an Enchanter as my main in Pantheon is because I have hopes they mimic the EQ Enchanter closely. The class had a lot of different type of mezzes, stuns, and charms that you could use at your disposal. You only had so many spell gems to occupy to it was important to have the right stuff up depending on the situation. And of course, the mana regen inducing spells were something you just HAD to have to succeed. Most Enchanters were only made for alts because of this mind crack.
To me, I just hope that we will have many different "options" to control a situation. Let us use the arsenal in our individual ways so we can define ourselves and how we play. There is nothing more that I love than to see the hope of a group fall, they give in and are ready to accept death, and you play your class perfectly and change the tide. You bring back their hope and you all survive the situation. They may not happen often, but they are defining moments that keep you striving...
I cannot wait to see how we can manipulate the environment in Pantheon. The other thing I would like to add, is I hope we also play a BIG role on crafting enhancements with all sorts of goods. If you want higher grade materials, it becomes a must to have a well-trained Enchanter to modify your goods. I thought a cool concept would be metallic type statues around Terminus that and Enchanter could cast a short term spell on (15 min or so, refresh 1 hour) that effect those within proximity as they pass by... It could range from mind candy, to resists to whatever.
I have to disagree that having more CC opens as a VG Psionicist made it more fun than the EQ enchanter. I played both for years. I really disliked that the Psionicist had several spells that all did the same sort of thing on long cooldowns (mez) it just made it a button mashing /whack a mole contest. Give a single target mez spell and let me mez as many mobs as I have the skill and tenacity to attempt. Let me focus on the game, not watching spells coming off cooldown on my hot bar... it's not compelling game play :P
That being said, I am hopeful that the Pantheon Enchanter will not have artificially limited mez skills (E.G. long cooldowns with spell redundancy) that they'll be a solid support class, the best at CC, and have viable DPS with charm pets. I find normal DPS abilities/classes boring. However, cc, charm, buff, debuff type game play the most fun I've had in an MMO and I miss it more than words can express!
If you could mostly carbon copy the Enchanter from EverQuest and transplant it in Pantheon I would be thrilled.
Give me plenty of CC options. Let me chain mez and stuns. Charm can also be used as CC.
Let me also have plenty of options for dealing with CC prior to actual engagement. Let me reduce awareness in the enemy / pacification, dumb them down, infiltrate the mind and bend their will.
That's CC-related stuff and not all of it. A properly played Enchanter is something to behold. A really good one can even do double duty as a puller which still correlates with CC in a preemptive fashion and is actually beneficial since the main DPS remains in camp instead of running around not doing DPS.
I'd LOVE to see pretty much a carbon copy of EQ Enchanter. That was my main for 7yrs from Vanilla. It's also the one class I have missed since I left EQ. With all these games in ez mode where 90% of the mobs can be solo'd or adds are just an annoyance, there's been no need for any real CC. The return of a true CC role is honestly the main reason I'm wanting to get my hands on this game so badly. I miss watching groups have a love / hate relationship with an enchanter. "A shaman and a monk can do everything you enchanters can do plus." was my favorite phrase to laugh at. I had a Druid alt and never claimed I could replace a Cleric.
Keep rocking out the development VR! A game that actually pushes reputation, grouping, and teamwork will be a welcome addition for a long time!
Venjenz said:One warning, since I play a crowd controller and/or death caster of some sort in every MMO they are available - the game won't need to make CC difficult at the outset because CC will get nerfed when the developers see it being used effectively, particularly on content they wanted to have acting as a progress gate. Bank on it. Brad still worked for Verant/SOE when enchanters were getting their toolkits wrecked in Kunark and then even harder in Velious. If there is a dungeon/camp where they feel mezz/stun/charm/etc will make it easier than they like, bank on CC immunity almost across the board in that zone.
Kael Drakkel? The Hole? The outer planes? Half the mobs in every raid zone? Etc etc. Kael is the most famous and obvious "we never meant for THAT to happen" nerf of enchanters, but mezz, stun, memblur, slow, tash, root and charm on one spell bar is FORMIDABLE and makes even difficult content trivial. Whenever the devs want that content to be hard no matter what, it will be.
The template is there - EQ1 enchanter + VG psi + AO bureaucrat = perfect amalgamation of a pure utility caster. The question is whether the devs allow for one class to make most of their single group and yard trash raid content trivial?
This is an extremely good point, and quite likely. A well played Enchanter can easily trivialise content. What we're not taking into account is the affect the disposition system and atmospheric system will have on CC.
You should be able to charm a mob and have it at full strength, if you buff it and it breaks, well, too bad, so sad. You've got a mini-boss to deal with. When a mob is charmed, you should have full use of its entire repetoire of skills/ spells.
It should be difficult to charm intelligent humanoid mobs. Maybe being able to land a charm on a mob should be based off of a few different factors. Your charisma and intelligence and the mobs intelligence, will, and sv vs magic/ psionics. It shouldn't be too easy for you to charm up a healer and bring it along with you. it should be fighting your will the entire time. Maybe even have a charmed pet only spell called Mind Lash that you occasionally have to cast to keep your charmed mob under your control. I dont know if this should be represented with a "willpower" inticator, or just have to guess at it. That spell should cost a nice chunk of mana to use. Lesser willed creatures, you wouldn't have to Mind Lash so much.
There should still be a random chance of your charm just breaking.
Charmed mobs should retain their factions. if you run into an Elf city with a Skar mob charmed, they should attack it.
You should be able to loot and place items on a charmed mob. If the mob is humanoid, it should use weapons and armor traded to it.
Boss mobs should probably not be charmable, but if so, it should be hella difficult.
Keiiek said:You should be able to loot and place items on a charmed mob. If the mob is humanoid, it should use weapons and armor traded to it.
Im ok with this as long as the item remains only lootable by the player who gave it to the mob (unless its droppable). Or else you run into a huge and obvious way to exploit.
Porygon said:Keiiek said:You should be able to loot and place items on a charmed mob. If the mob is humanoid, it should use weapons and armor traded to it.
Im ok with this as long as the item remains only lootable by the player who gave it to the mob (unless its droppable). Or else you run into a huge and obvious way to exploit.
Yeah it's pretty reasonable to just make it so that you can't give No Trade/No Drop weapons to any sort of pet. I kinda like the idea. While charmed, you should be able to suggest that the mob do almost anything you want, including wielding a certain weapon. You benefit from your mezzed pet having more hp/dmg, but also run the risk of the mez breaking early and running off with your stuff, or even using it against you! In which case, of course, you'd have to kill it to get it back instead of just asking it to give it back to you.
I really don't think we can let charm keep the targets original stats, thats just asking for enchanters to be super soloers. If you try to counter it by making it short term and/or heavily resisted then you end up with a dead spell. Let charm be a slightly risky form of CC where the charmed loses a grip of damage and I'd say it's fine, a charmed mob more in a lulled thrall state fighting without emotion or ferocity.