Yes, my title is a bit facetious; however, after being very optimistic about rogues in my early testing many years ago, I have now become very concerned.
There simply is nothing "roguelike" about the current state of rogues or the direction they seem to be heading. Even previously, the advantage of a rogue was that you could drag corpses and shadow walk to groups deep in dungeons that needed a replacement. Their crowd control (CC) was very situational and often led to aggro in the process. There are no real openers from stealth aside from Shadowfall, which, to me, seems more like a ranger ability than a rogue one. A rogue should only need stealth and to be behind the target to perform a strong ambush-like attack. We have none of that.
Our Escape Artist does not work and requires too much opportunity to use effectively. Sprint to the Shadows does not trigger unless you have the 3 opportunity required for Escape Artist (or so it seems), and again, it doesn't work anyway. Smoke Bomb doesn't drop aggro or cancel an attack (anything that triggers stealth should cancel combat). It’s good for off-aggro CC when needed, but that's about it. If you don’t have aggro, you can use it to build some opportunity for more traps/smoke bombs.
Things like traps and Smoke Bomb should not generate aggro unless the rogue is so close that they are seen. The CC should run its course, and mobs should move on if they were never directly aggroed by an attack, depending on the level of the mob.
Shadow Step and Shadow Planning should be combined. When you shadow step to an enemy, you should gain a 5-second window with 10% crit chance. You could even add a bonus to backstab damage during this window. Imagine that! You'd have a rogue right there! Instead, Shadow Step is just a movement ability that is rarely used, except when I want to get unstuck from a wall in HC, and Shadow Planning is a separate 5-second cast? WTF? Rogues are casters now?
Not even sure what to say about Escape Artist. Apparently, rogues are not artists. This ability fails like 90% of the time. Why does it end after 5 seconds? Why do I have to activate Shadow Walk during Shadow Walk when it works? Why does it cost so much opportunity, with such a long cooldown? This ability should have a 5-minute timer, cost only 1 opportunity (if even that), and apply a significant increase to the Shadow Walk ability that lasts for 5 seconds before returning to normal Shadow Walk. It should rarely fail against blue-con mobs.
Rogues should gain some sort of statistical advantage from using daggers—not to make other weapons obsolete (I think the combat state system mitigate this as is), but rogues are stabbers! There should be an incentive for this, not just backstab and waylay, which are essentially the same ability used by different weapons.
Why doesn’t the rogue get a form of kick to silence? When I first tested a rogue, they had one. It was removed for what I assumed was balance, but it was never returned.
So, rogue stealth does not seem to have any advantages at the moment, but it comes with a 40% reduced movement penalty for little reward. CC is questionable. There’s no ambush-like opener. No real advantage to daggers. No combat-dropping abilities that work consistently. No real lockdown abilities. No silence. DPS is mediocre. There doesn’t seem to be any advantage to choosing a rogue right now. I know this is still in testing, but I’ve become concerned for the class, as these things feel like rogue 101. Each class should be fun and unique and have some sort of a feel for it's potential mastery. Hopefully, the class will play out better in the end.
Sylent
A concerned rogue.
Rog CC isn't intended to replace Enchanter CC in a group environment, it can be a tremendous stopgap though to ease the pain the group feels from multiple adds to give an Enc time to catch up, and greatly support the group if only a Necro is around.
In summation, Rogues are great but aren't Enchanters (They can actually help kill things!:P)
Nothing in this post compares rogues to enchanters. Nor does anything a rogue has put them on the level of enchanters. A 60 second root trap that now lasts 25 seconds and gets the rogue aggro is not something I'd even call CC its more of an opening attack. Sometimes you can not even get a smoke-trick off after that. Leave root trap at 60 seconds and move smoke trick up to 30 seconds and drop the trap getting aggro. Not a tall ask imo and still does not at all put rogues on the level of an enchanter.
Forcing every group to have an enchanter to be able to handle at level content is not going to support the game it will kill it. My main argument here is the rogue does not feel like a rogue and it is very easy to call your game "challenging" if you are not even going to allow groups the skills they need to take on at level content. If your only idea of a rogue is (They can actually help kill things) then that could be virtually any class in the game. Rogue DPS is not all that great.
Nah, you're clearly wanting Rog to parallel a chanter in terms of cc.
Any attempts at CC naturally grab agro, deal with it.
Rog dps is pretty great; 2nd to Wizard and they supersede Wizards in the form of active combat utility. Rog tools are fine for what they're intended to be.
Sneak isn't broken, some things see through invis, and sneak, always have, always will. Sometimes it fails altogether. Wait till the fizzles start happening.
They aren't forcing every group to have a chanter, or anything, if you were paying attention to techniques and the CC available from several classes, you'd realize that.
and yea, the trap is part of your stun and cc toolkit, how do you not realize that?
But it's not a chanter
"Nah, you're clearly wanting Rog to parallel a chanter in terms of cc."
One 60 second root and a 30 second smoke-trick are nothing compared to what a chanter can put down. Once stealth is broken rogue can no longer CC. A smoke bomb that works would allow them to CC again but it does not drop aggro. Nor was it designed to. Escape artist is but does not work. Delusional much? Have you played a rogue?
There are testing rogues that have been given DMG meters and were able to compare rogue dps. Ill just say there are some rogue testers that quit over the results. There was a time when the rogue dps was really good but they over did nerfing it. I know things are not done yet this more about the direction the rogue is going. It does not look good to me.
Sneak is broken when you take a 40% movement hit and can not even get by even level mobs that is not a stealth ability. Right now green and light blue mobs can see stealth. Why play a stealth class when there is no real benefit to it?
Yes they practically are forcing groups to need an enchanter for any challenging content. You can not kill a mob of grp difficulty in 25 seconds. Have you been playing the same game?
The trap is a root not a stun. And laying a trap while in stealth that some mobs walks into when you are 50 feet away should break stealth? Why am I even responding to you?
Not wanting to jump into the main discussion, since I haven't played a Rogue for many months and at least a few patches, and I agree Rogue needs work.
But about this:
"Forcing every group to have an enchanter to be able to handle at level content is not going to support the game it will kill it... Yes they practically are forcing groups to need an enchanter for any challenging content."
Since the beginning, Pantheon has been touted as being 'Quaternity' based rather than 'Trinity' based. As in, a CC class being just as necessary for challenging content as Tank, Healer or DPS. That theme hasn't been discussed much in recent years. They changed their official designation of the fourth Role from CC to 'Support' some time ago. I assume for PR reasons, because to my knowledge they have never retracted the premise that CC is needed for a full group. And it's still part of the front page 'about the game' info on the website.
Untimately of course, the need can be filled by Ench, Bard or Necro. But when a full group is needed, expect to generally need one of them.
Yes I agree and am all for it. And chanters should be the masters of that and still would be with the changes I am siting for rogue CC. But even still that was not my argument it simply was a rogue does not feel like a rogue to me. This after years of testing one. The "You are trying to make a rogue an enchanter" was Geddoe's strawman.
You could have a grp with a rogue and a necro as CC and they still would not accomplish what an enchanter can. But yes the rogue after out of stealth could at least dps but likely will not be laying down any more CC with the way smoke bombs and escape artist function. The opportunity for CC with a rogue was limited to begin with and now the root only last 25 seconds. If rogue is only CC in the grp you better have some very good dps.
"Yes I agree and am all for it. And chanters should be the masters of that and still would be with the changes I am siting for rogue CC. But even still that was not my argument it simply was a rogue does not feel like a rogue to me. This after years of testing one. The "You are trying to make a rogue an enchanter" was Geddoe's strawman.
You could have a grp with a rogue and a necro as CC and they still would not accomplish what an enchanter can. But yes the rogue after out of stealth could at least dps but likely will not be laying down any more CC with the way smoke bombs and escape artist function. The opportunity for CC with a rogue was limited to begin with and now the root only last 25 seconds. If rogue is only CC in the grp you better have some very good dps. "
Dude it's not a strawman, you're literally arguing to be an end game enchanter, with god tier dps, while not getting agro
and
effortlessly sneaking past white /con mobs.
The rog isn't perfect, but what your arguing isn't going to exist until End Game times at best, well hopefully at best.
and hopefully never
The delusion of you. That’s not the argument I’m making at all. A single 60-second root while in stealth is not equivalent to enchanter CC—especially since it has a cooldown. There’s no reason I shouldn’t be able to remain in stealth after something steps into the trap. It doesn’t even make sense for me to get aggro from it. I’m invisible to the mob—why would a trap I laid suddenly make me visible? You clearly don’t understand the argument.
All I’m asking is to let the rogue do what rogues do. It’s a total strawman argument to focus on CC, which isn’t even my primary concern—clearly, it seems to be yours. As I mentioned, some players have paid over 10k just to test this game and requested a damage meter. They got it, and the rogue isn’t as high on the DPS list as you seem to imply.
Stop trolling. Rogues were able to stealth around level-appropriate mobs up until the most recent patch. I’m not even sure the changes achieved the intended result. And yes, stealthing around of-level mobs is one of the key benefits of playing a rogue in every MMO ever. Have you ever played one? Rogues scout for groups, inform on pulls, and drag corpses—this is just part of the class identity. That doesn’t mean nothing can see them ever. Range plays a factor. Please stop trolling.
Rogue CC was initially intended to play a factor when there was no enchanter as is said in this official Pantheon video.
What he says at 10:15 is all I am asking for as far as rogue CC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTdeGdHNo3E
Basically says as long as the rogue stays in stealth they can lock down a cpl of mobs literally making reference to if there is no enchanter. So this absolutely was what they initially intended for a rogue but it has never worked that way because the initial trap has the potential to kick you out of stealth and the abilities they gave to regain stealth do not work. If the rogue is not DPS'n no reason why they cant CC.
"The delusion of you. That’s not the argument I’m making at all. A single 60-second root while in stealth is not equivalent to enchanter CC—especially since it has a cooldown. There’s no reason I shouldn’t be able to remain in stealth after something steps into the trap. It doesn’t even make sense for me to get aggro from it. I’m invisible to the mob—why would a trap I laid suddenly make me visible? You clearly don’t understand the argument.
All I’m asking is to let the rogue do what rogues do. It’s a total strawman argument to focus on CC, which isn’t even my primary concern—clearly, it seems to be yours. As I mentioned, some players have paid over 10k just to test this game and requested a damage meter. They got it, and the rogue isn’t as high on the DPS list as you seem to imply.
Stop trolling. Rogues were able to stealth around level-appropriate mobs up until the most recent patch. I’m not even sure the changes achieved the intended result. And yes, stealthing around of-level mobs is one of the key benefits of playing a rogue in every MMO ever. Have you ever played one? Rogues scout for groups, inform on pulls, and drag corpses—this is just part of the class identity. That doesn’t mean nothing can see them ever. Range plays a factor. Please stop trolling."
"
Rogue CC was initially intended to play a factor when there was no enchanter as is said in this official Pantheon video.
What he says at 10:15 is all I am asking for as far as rogue CC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTdeGdHNo3E
Well at least you almost spelled Sociopath correctly. Way to get around that word filter
Good Day
What? Do you actually have an argument that is relevant? Or are you only capable of trolling? Your argument was completely destroyed. Get over it. I was only countering your strawman argument which you are now using as exactly that LOL.
I do not care if they completely take Rogue CC away just give the rogue something in place of it that actually works and is apt for a rogue.
Remember your initial statement bud?
"Rog CC isn't intended to replace Enchanter CC in a group environment, it can be a tremendous stopgap though to ease the pain the group feels from multiple adds to give an Enc time to catch up, and greatly support the group if only a Necro is around."
The initial official Pantheon description of a rogue says different. Now things change as always but that does not mean I cant give my feedback on it as I have. Nothing I said would ever make a rogues CC rival an enchanters. Rogue would have to remain in stealth, each trap would have a 25 second CD and if the first one knocks you out of stealth there would be no more CC. At the most you could trap 2 and lose time dps'n if you intended to lock either one down for longer than the trap lasts. Compared to an enchanter who can lock any amount down at will as long as he has mana.
Nope - I play both just fine - I understand the Rog tool set just fine and it works as intended,
super quick stopgap CC with the ability to burn down the main target in the absence of a chanter, without interrupting the chanters work
or devaluing the world feel that exists
but is diminished by "feedback" like Yours.
Also I loved the numbers change on the gear I was exposed to in the last patch before the end of seasons, now admittedly, I wasn't exposed to all of it as I play several different classes (most of them) and didn't get to analyze several of the possibly valid complaints, but around level 20 (edit: as a Rog) and an avid crafter, I liked the inflation control that I saw across the board.
"but is diminished by "feedback" like Yours."
The absolute arrogance of your statement highlights a non-objective mindset. At this point, it feels like you’re arguing out of ego rather than focusing on the state of the game. It seems as though you believe you're the only one entitled to offer feedback on how a class should fit into the game.
I’ve seen the rogue class evolve from something very enjoyable, something I was excited to see develop further, to a situation where many abilities were added that don’t contribute meaningfully, leaving the class moving backward into a dysfunctional DPS role. The rogue now often just stands behind a target, swinging, which is hardly fun. If that’s your idea of an enjoyable rogue class, you’re entitled to that opinion.
As a long-time rogue player, I prefer to use the full toolkit the class offers. Even though I didn’t have access to DPS meters myself, I’ve had players tell me that while my DPS was lower compared to other rogues, I was utilizing more of the rogue toolkit than players who focused exclusively on DPS. Even so, the rogue was ranked last in DPS compared to monks and wizards at that time. This challenges your claim that rogues are such a dominant DPS class. That data would be dated now but it is clear rogue DPS has gone down even more since then although I am sure all classes have had similar scale adjustments.
I’ve played rogue almost exclusively for many years, leveling one to nearly 40. Yes, I’ve tried other classes, but only a few to level 20 or so. I’m confident that you haven’t engaged with challenging content as a rogue, or you’d recognize that there are issues beyond just solo rogue CC. For instance, after the changes to rogue CC, I was in a group that wiped three times on encounters that should have been straightforward in HC. We had an enchanter in the group, yet the rogue CC changes still proved inadequate. Stopgap CC is NOT what Pantheon described for the rogue. I even posted a video showcasing this issue, but you’ve chosen to ignore it. Pantheon described rogue CC as capable of locking down at least one mob, and potentially two, in the absence of an enchanter, while not dealing DPS. Once a rogue begins DPSing, their CC abilities are severely limited, if available at all.
The recent changes to rogue CC have made it harder to form groups, as enchanters have always been in high demand. I’ve witnessed many groups fail to get off the ground because the content requires better CC than a rogue can currently provide. If you think that’s good for group play, I disagree. While necro and rogue might manage to provide some CC together, where’s the DPS going to come from? Eventually, enchanters will likely receive a pet or charm ability, making them more viable for DPS. Rogue CC was fine as it was and didn’t need the nerf it received. But that is only one issue I am speaking of that you are hard focused on. I just want the class to be fun. The experience has greatly diminished for me.
It's a gonna be raining Ravages on mezz breakers ;p
Edit for I love it.
Changes to rogues since this post.
Added ranks to backstab and waylay. Really like this. Makes the abilities feel less stagnant.
Smoke trick change discussed above. Like this one as well.
Added Clone ability to avoid next inc attack. Nice strategic ability.
Added Tricks of the trade stealth ability modifier. REALLY like this one. Stealth now becomes more effective as you lvl. I no longer get seen sneaking up on even cons with this maxed at my lvl.
Some subtle changes that add up to a significant play style improvement. Nicely done.
See? non radical changes for the win, but I worry they're gonna mudflate progression with things working too well too fast, but I'm sure they're on top of that too.
Edit for:
Haven't gotten to shadow planning yet, but I agree about the old cast time and believe you'll be able to work that down to something special over time.
Rogue's are a pointless class to begin with. Rather see a unique melee dps class like a, Gladiator, DW or 2h weapon class, has abilities like Capture Net- trap-snares target for 3 secs. Trident Throw- Throw a trident for a 1 sec stun and spell interrupt, Champion Call- Gives all melee in group a 100% chance at a crit hit on next swing. And so forth.
" Rogue's are a pointless class to begin with. Rather see a unique melee dps class like a, Gladiator, DW or 2h weapon class, has abilities like Capture Net- trap-snares target for 3 secs. Trident Throw- Throw a trident for a 1 sec stun and spell interrupt, Champion Call- Gives all melee in group a 100% chance at a crit hit on next swing. And so forth. "
Did me and the other guy just become best friends over this? We may disagree on some things but.