Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

How will racial abilities affect gameplay?

    • 4 posts
    October 6, 2024 11:42 PM PDT
    Hello,

    Would it be possible to learn more about the impact that racial abilities will have on gameplay?

    Currently, it seems to me that certain races are predisposed to certain classes. Will we be forced to choose between our favorite race and the most optimal race for our class? Or have you planned a system where each race would have unique, yet balanced, active and passive abilities, allowing players to choose their preferred race without being penalized?

    Won’t this create an imbalance? For example, if humans are considered the best race for the enchanter class, it could encourage a majority of players to choose this combination, at the expense of character diversity. Don’t you think it would be better to design a system where all race/class combinations are viable and interesting to play?

    How do you decide on race/class combinations? Is it arbitrary or is there a story behind it? Why couldn’t a dwarf be a necromancer, an elf a cleric, or a gnome a warrior? The lore logic, you might say... But wouldn’t allowing players to choose what they want to play, at the expense of some arbitrary and subjective logic, be less frustrating and more balanced?

    I’d like to mention that one of the things I love most about EverQuest is the lore of each race and the fact that each character starts the game in their own native village and joins other races later in the leveling process. However, I find it extremely frustrating to have to choose a specific class to be optimal.

    Thank you for reading.

    Best regards,
    • 936 posts
    October 7, 2024 4:53 AM PDT

    There is a grid that specifies what players will ultimately be able to play. VR have said that the choices are this way to fit in with the lore of the game.

    Personally, I like that all races don't have access to all classes; it never made sense to me that an Ogre could sneak past sharp eyes guards or halflings could tank as well as an Ogre.

    As for racial abilities; each race will have advantages and make them play differently from each other (from being able to breath underwater to having more hit points, to being able to resist silence more). Although I haven't seen a recent list of such things, they certainly were planned.


    This post was edited by chenzeme at October 7, 2024 4:56 AM PDT
    • 936 posts
    October 7, 2024 4:54 AM PDT

    Classes – Pantheon – Rise Of The Fallen (pantheonmmo.com) details what is available to each race.

    Jothany posted this back in 2019: Racial Abilities List - Pantheon Forums (pantheonmmo.com)

    I’d like to mention that one of the things I love most about EverQuest is the lore of each race and the fact that each character starts the game in their own native village and joins other races later in the leveling process. However, I find it extremely frustrating to have to choose a specific class to be optimal.

    I would just point out that this will be difficult (not impossible) to factorise as different races bring different things to a party. Humans will bring melee and range and spell haste, Ogres will have extra attack rating from strength, halflings will have a dagger bonus; so it is not a straight "which race is best for which class".


    This post was edited by chenzeme at October 7, 2024 5:07 AM PDT
    • 4 posts
    October 7, 2024 11:03 AM PDT

    Thank you for sharing your opinion, but you're not answering my questions. I am well aware of the abilities of each class, and it is precisely because I know them that I am asking these questions. It is entirely possible to balance the skills between races while staying true to the game's lore.

    Of course, it makes sense that an orc would be stronger than a halfling in a real fantasy world, but we're in a video game. Shouldn't we prioritize player enjoyment and the freedom to create the character of their dreams, rather than restricting ourselves to strict adherence to a fictitious reality? If a player wants to combine a specific race with a class, why deny them that option? And what about those who want to engage in high-level content with a class considered less efficient? If we follow your strictly realistic logic, a dead character should disappear permanently and not respawn at their bind point, but that wouldn't be very fun.

    This all comes down to a matter of perspective and design choices. For example, in Baldur's Gate 3, Larian Studios opted for great flexibility by allowing players to freely assign their attribute points regardless of race, which wasn't the case originally. Yet, it would make sense for a dwarf to have higher Constitution than an elf and lower Dexterity. In Baldur's Gate 3, racial traits have a relatively minor impact, but what about Pantheon of the Fallen? I'm simply asking the question. As far as I know, in Pantheon of the Fallen, racial stats won’t influence gameplay.

    As I pointed out, it currently seems that some races are predisposed to certain classes.

    My main question is this: to what extent will racial abilities impact the game, especially in the endgame?

    • 43 posts
    October 7, 2024 2:22 PM PDT

    Especially in the endgame? I´d say a extremely minor impact, especially those from humans. I can foresee a raiding wizard with, let´s say, 220% of spell haste, so adding a 2% is not going to impact anything. Now, inmunity to an element can be a different story, but I cannot see it as a game changer either, or something to break an encounter with. Matches of certain classes with certain racial abilities can lead to specific builds, slightly better optimized than others, but that´s all I see.

    • 64 posts
    October 7, 2024 9:46 PM PDT

    Being an old school EQer, I don't see the problem deciding between min maxing the believed best build for a class vs. playing a character that looks cool to me.  If every race had the same options and stats it would water down the character diversity. 

    I also disagree with the argument of entitlement because it could easily become an endless spiral.  Saying a player should not be inconvenienced by racial limitations could also be:  Why should I be frustrated starting with crap equipment?  Why should I be frustrated by starting without all bag slots?  Why should I be frustrated with limited bank space, or no money, or downtime gathering/crafting.  Why should I be KOS to certain guards because of the class I want, and on it goes.

    • 936 posts
    October 8, 2024 1:48 AM PDT

    My main question is this: to what extent will racial abilities impact the game, especially in the endgame?

    I apologise if you think I was not specifically answering your question, that was not the intention. 

    I personally think the racial traits coupled with selective mastery in skills that take advantage of those traits could easily be impactful on the game; as skills and stats increase, the traits will impact more.

    But because each racial ability will impact differently on the class skill sets, I really don't see you being forced into any one type of tank or healer, etc. If we take the Ogre for instance, granted, the racial traits seem to be melee related (which makes sense), however an Ogre necro or shaman that doesn't suffer from magic stuns would definitely be advantageous to have in any group, as would an elf with Deep Recitation. 

    I feel a greater range of race/class choices just ends up being more akin to a skin rather than a racial play style; less race/class choice coupled with racial traits makes group dynamics much more interesting and satisfying than having all tanks or shamans play exactly the same.

    So to answer your question directly; I think racial traits could impact the game significantly, in a good way and more so at level 50. Just depends on the implementation. I haven't seen much in the way of official updates in this area recently though so it is just a guess (or a hope for me).


    This post was edited by chenzeme at October 8, 2024 1:59 AM PDT
    • 4 posts
    October 8, 2024 3:33 AM PDT

    Thank you all for your responses and opinions. I am not looking to debate who is right or wrong, nor to convince anyone that my point of view is the correct one. I am simply sharing my observation, and everyone is free to have their own opinion.


    By posting this message, I hope to get a more formal response from the developers, if possible, regarding their actual objectives. I would like to know their official stance, rather than assumptions or opinions from external individuals.

    • 43 posts
    October 8, 2024 5:23 AM PDT
    So you posted something on the forums hoping only to get a response from the devs and not interested in anything else? That’s a bold strategy Cotton, let’s see if it pays off for ya.
    • 936 posts
    October 9, 2024 4:29 AM PDT

    Yeah the forums are actually for discussions and wishes and likes and dislikes. Yep VR does pop on from time to time with their input, but they get as much out of it as we do. 

    This is one of VRs visions so I think it is worth a discussion from all sides.

    • 111 posts
    October 9, 2024 6:02 AM PDT

    It's just flavor of play, and there's not much of a min/maxing discussion to have here.

    Yes I want Gnomes to be Kill On Sight to Ogres and vise-versa.

    Yes Short legged halflings and dwarves should be slower than humans.

    Yes Ogres should be stronger and dumber than the other races.

    There's a reason that the dark elf chanter was listed as "HARD" in everquest while the High Elf was a fundamentally different experience for quite a while

    but you picked it because it was cooler than the high elf.

    please do not cave to this narrative that's developing about everything being equal. You are not ever going to please this narrative.

    It's already going a bit sideways based on what I've seen on the state of rezzes and healing viability..

    but I have faith. I have to.

     


    This post was edited by Geddoe at October 9, 2024 6:04 AM PDT