Concerned about the skill caps per level between the classes that is currently implemented.
For example, if one class gets 5 points of Dodge Skill per level, and another gets 4 points per level, at level 1 it may not be that big of a difference, but by lvl 50 it will be a huge difference.
Being down 50 points in your Dodge skill relative to the level of mobs you will be facing would be huge, to the point where you have the "Dodge Skill" in name only, and its almost completely ineffective.
So multiple classes get the Dodge Skill, but for some it actually get Weaker as you level up, just when your character is supposed to be getting Stronger.
Consider too something like Dagger Skill. If a caster class can only get 4 skill points per level, and a Rogue can get 5, that would seem "appropriate", but shouldn't that difference in dagger melee output come from the fact that the Rogue has skills like Backstab and Dual Wield etc that the caster doesn't?
A caster who spent his whole carear honing his dagger skill should be just as proficient with the one hand auto attacking skill as any other.
Artificial skill caps based on class seem to needlessly restrict choice.
Why effectively force classes into you "must" use this weapon/build type based on skill caps, and instead let individuals from each class choose their own course and specialize/customize how they want to play that class?
Diversity within a class, or cookie cutter builds? Can't have both.
That is a legitimate concern that I too share and have expressed with many mechanics in this game - that some people will argue against the math stating that "10-20 points isn't that big of a difference".
Those of us that understand exponential growth in numbers can see where this will snowball out of control at "some" point in the future. I argued this math with the difference of AC between tanks... only time will stifle some of these deniers of the laws of math.
In your example of the Dagger skill on a Rogue compared to a Wizard, there will be combat skill modifiers that will also be multiplicative to the attack equation (probably a few of them like piercing, dual weilding, double attack, etc). The concern I have is when say the Warrior gains +1 more skill (dodge, parry, slashing, bludgeon, etc) rating per level than the DL or even the Paladin that by level 50, there is no comparison to raw tanking ability (although the other tanks may be able to survive on their own more efficiently... inadvertantly making the warrior "the raid tank". I know the devs have addressed this by including encounters that are more beneficial to use the other tanks, but I see that as a VERY high expectation that is not likely to be achieved (because of player ingenuity combined with Math), although I look forward to watching them take years trying to outmath that through creativity - only to have math and player creativity trump all of that work in a few months.
I'm hoping beyond hope that we will not have cookie cutter builds. But again... Math. I am truly hoping that multiple builds will be viable within the same class if not the same role. I already know classes within the same role will be far from comparable at points throughout the life of the game, and I'm ok with that. But I really don't want to have the exact same skills as every other player of my class on my LAS aside from maybe 2-3 of my role's "core" skills (not necessarily my "class" but the "role" i.e. I hope there are multiple types of taunts that all tanks have different flavors but share cooldowns, or multiple types of CC for all of the support classes that share cooldowns, etc). Perhaps the BRD, ENC, and NEC can all cast fascinate with a 4sec cast and 30sec duration, but they can each evolve them to behave differently, like perhaps the BRD can turn theirs into a PBAoE channel OR a quick cast short duration mesmerize while the ENC could turn theirs into a ranged AoE with a longer cast time OR a single target with longer duration... OR they can choose to not evolve the skill and be the same. Either way, I hope they allow for some customization without hamstringing the core mechanics. I think we can have diversity within a class with the way they are heading with skill progression. I'm just really hoping that all (or at least most) of the options are viable enough that you may even want multiple of the same class that have different evolutions of the same skill.
What is the total cap?
If the cap were say 100, then the warrior maxes out at lvl 20, the DL/Paladin at 25, if the cap is 200 then warrior caps at 40 DL/Paladin at 50.
So it's may not be that they can't cap it out, just that it takes them longer.
And could there be other skills that are reveresed, like say Parry skills faster for DL/Paladin vs the warrior, or something else.
It's really about balance and without all the numbers and variables there's no way we can truly say it's a disadvantage.
It is far too early to worry and since the potential problems you mention are fairly obvious VR surely has a plan to make everything work at both high level and low level. I will put any concerns on call-up for alpha, at which point we will see at least a rough framework of how they intend the game to work from character creation to maximum level. Pre-alpha gives important and valuable glimpses into Pantheon but they are surely testing individual components of systems that may or may not wind up in the game (that is what testing means, of course) and that they may not be wasting time seeing if they give a smooth path to maximum level until they see how the testing works.
lotuss79 said:Concerned about the skill caps per level between the classes that is currently implemented.
For example, if one class gets 5 points of Dodge Skill per level, and another gets 4 points per level, at level 1 it may not be that big of a difference, but by lvl 50 it will be a huge difference.
Being down 50 points in your Dodge skill relative to the level of mobs you will be facing would be huge, to the point where you have the "Dodge Skill" in name only, and its almost completely ineffective.
So multiple classes get the Dodge Skill, but for some it actually get Weaker as you level up, just when your character is supposed to be getting Stronger.
I dont see an issue where two different classes have different caps on skills they share because they are two different classes. Just because a Shaman gets dodge doesn't mean it should have the same dodge cap as a warrior. Why should the Shaman, a class that is not focused on melee, have the same dodge skill cap? It shouldn't. The same applies for caster classes where they could have different caps on different spell casting skills depending upon which skills are more a focus for their class. I don't see why a Druid would need the same Evocation cap as a Wizard or the Wizard getting the same Augmentation cap as the Druid.
Sorry for all the repeat posts, i was trying to reply to Vandraad but clearly don't know how to use the "Quote" feature.
anyway, this is what i meant to reply..
Simply because you want to play him that way. If you wanted to have your Shamen get bashed on in melee combat till lvl 50 to up your Dodge skill, why should an arbitrary cap prevent you from doing that? Is it the best way to play the Shamen? Probably not, but that should be player choice.
Besides, all these skils will have Stat Modifiers. So your right that say, a Monk with his higher Agility will in the end Dodge better than the Shamen with his lower Agility, but arbitrary caps that take away player choice is not the answer.
Also, im specifically talking about Skill Caps *Per Level*.
So that at lvl 50 your Monk has a 250 Dodge Skill built up by 5 points in the skill per level, but your Shamen has only 200 Dodge Skill built up by restricting him to 4 points per level.
At lvl 50, being down 50 points due to a skill cap means your a full 10 levels below your compatition in that skill. You really do not have Any dodge skill at that point.
So you literally get weaker as you level up relative to the mobs your fighting.
If you were to put a hard cap limit at lvl 50 of say 5 points total, so your Monk had a 250 Dodge skill, and yoru Shamen had a 245 Dodge skill, thats a 1 level difference (still significant), but nothing that breaks or negates having the dodge completely. Although in still not for caps of any kind for the reasons stated earlier (organic player choice)
Because classes are different and hold different class identities for gameplay complete with strengths/weaknesses etc. That is far more important than player desire to "break the mold" or give them the illusion of being different. Yes it is "artificial" but no more so than any other system, the idea of strict classes at all is artificial as are weapon or armor limits etc.
Iksar said:Because classes are different and hold different class identities for gameplay complete with strengths/weaknesses etc. That is far more important than player desire to "break the mold" or give them the illusion of being different. Yes it is "artificial" but no more so than any other system, the idea of strict classes at all is artificial as are weapon or armor limits etc.
Im talking Very specifically about skill caps scaling up on a per level basis.
A single point difference per level (5 points per level vs 4 points per level) means that at lvl 5 a certain class will be 1 full level lower in that skill. At lvl 10 he would be 2 full levels below. But at lvl 50, it 10! full levels below. Its akin to not having the skill at all.
This is a perverse system for advancement don't you think? Literally getting weaker as you level up?
And simply saying "Classes are different, get over it" might not be very constructive. The whole point of having community forums during the development phase is to discuss these things and give input.
lotuss79 said:This is a perverse system for advancement don't you think? Literally getting weaker as you level up?
And simply saying "Classes are different, get over it" might not be very constructive. The whole point of having community forums during the development phase is to discuss these things and give input.
You say getting weaker as you level up, I say enemies getting stronger. No way should a level 50 be equivalent in difficulty to a level 1 rat. Enemies *should* ramp up in difficulty, not stay relative the entire journey. Certain classes should be better at taking or avoiding damage. Yes, that means certain classes will maintain or grow their advantage over others as they approach endgame. That's a good thing!
I think the root of your concern is dodge being worthless for other classes, which couldn't be further from the trurth. Even a single dodge is something, especially when it happens at the moment you most need it.
lotuss79 said:Simply because you want to play him that way. If you wanted to have your Shamen get bashed on in melee combat till lvl 50 to up your Dodge skill, why should an arbitrary cap prevent you from doing that? Is it the best way to play the Shamen? Probably not, but that should be player choice.
Well, the blunt answer is you don't get to play a class any way you want. Every class has limitations that you'll need to accept.
It doesn't have to work in such a way that it's "akin to not having the skill at all." It makes sense to me that some classes just cap out lower than others, everyone starts bad at it and some just happen to end up being better than others.
That doesn't mean one is getting weaker as they level, it just means some get better than others. It could very well work out to where something like a wizard or shaman (assuming they even get the skill) maintain a 5% dodge vs equal level mobs as they level if they keep their caps up but things like rogue or monk end up slowly growing past that over the leveling journey. Even if it got a little weaker vs equal level mobs over time when leveling it wouldn't be useless just less effective compared to others but still sometimes handy (and very useful vs lower level mobs).
Personally I'd be okay if casters slowly became weaker (not useless) in some skills vs equal level mobs as they level up. Representative of those things not being important focuses of the class, for gameplay and class identity sake.
Iksar said:It doesn't have to work in such a way that it's "akin to not having the skill at all." It makes sense to me that some classes just cap out lower than others, everyone starts bad at it and some just happen to end up being better than others.
That doesn't mean one is getting weaker as they level, it just means some get better than others. It could very well work out to where something like a wizard or shaman (assuming they even get the skill) maintain a 5% dodge vs equal level mobs as they level if they keep their caps up but things like rogue or monk end up slowly growing past that over the leveling journey. Even if it got a little weaker vs equal level mobs over time when leveling it wouldn't be useless just less effective compared to others but still sometimes handy (and very useful vs lower level mobs).
Personally I'd be okay if casters slowly became weaker (not useless) in some skills vs equal level mobs as they level up. Representative of those things not being important focuses of the class, for gameplay and class identity sake.
That is very reasonable and would be roughly what i am actually suggesting. Unfortunatly the current system means that you do not start out bad and get better, you start out ok and literally get worse if you are one of the lower point per-level capped classes.
Everyone got hung up on the Dodge example as it effects two different classes and there will be 'turf wars' there.
How about this for a better example that is within the same class.
If the Dire Lord can get 5 skill points per level for a 1 handed sword, but 6 skill points per level for a 2 handed axe, you are effectively Required to go 2 handed axe at higher levels. Hows that for the illusion of choice! These various skills are available to you, but not actually viable.
Now of course the same wise sages will chime in and say "then go 1 handed sword and take the penalty and deal with it!"
But it doesn't have to be that way.
The knee jerk reaction to 100% agree with Whatever the current state of the game is, and then when the devs do make a change, 100% agree with that change as well, is odd.
And the classes can be plenty different based on Stat modifiers for skills not to mention class specific special abilities.
Vandraad, you confuse bluntness with making a point
Lotus, it feels like you're worried about something that has no basis for worry. Your making assumptions about the formulas VR is putting into the game that imply characters getting worse at what they do over time relative to the mobs they face. The thing is, we just don't know what formulas they're using. I would be very concerned if the devs didn't already agree with that being a problem, and even more concerned if they didn't know how to create systems that prevented that problem.
Ranarius said:Lotus, it feels like you're worried about something that has no basis for worry. Your making assumptions about the formulas VR is putting into the game that imply characters getting worse at what they do over time relative to the mobs they face. The thing is, we just don't know what formulas they're using. I would be very concerned if the devs didn't already agree with that being a problem, and even more concerned if they didn't know how to create systems that prevented that problem.
Hi Ranarius, i hope you're right about nothing to worry about. But one point. I am not in fact making an assumption here.
In the Cohh stream you can see the Skills page in the Character window, and see that skills are marked by per level advancement based on a factor of 5. Each skill has either 4/5, 5/5, or 6/5 per level.
That formula does in fact lead to, in the higher levels, the issue im bringing up.
Now im far from "panicking", but the forums are the proper place to bring up these concerns and hopefully the devs take them seriously.
Oh I totally agree with you, I am just pointing out that at max level we don't really know how much of a difference that will make and we don't know the intent of the design for max level characters.
What is the design goal for a max level warrior vs a max level shaman when it comes to being hit? Their AC will be different, their armor type will be different, their dodge, parry, block will be different
I imagine a shaman will intentionally be more likely to be hit than a warrior. I also imagine a shaman will be able to cast better spells than a warrior. There will be pros and cons to each class in each situation. I guess the assumption on my side is that VR is doing that intentionally and they know what the ramifications are.
2 random cents. As far as casters and dagger skill, any variance due to class can be supplemented with interesting weapon finds. Like, if a caster has 4 skill and a rogue has 4 skill but the rogue scores more hits because they;re a rogue, the caster may find or quest an interesting caster only dagger that procs lightning or a group heal or an ae poison DoT spray that might depend on the casters agi for procs.
