Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

• Grobobos

  

  • 144 posts
   

  January 2, 2023 2:58 AM PST

  Hello folks, 

  I hope you all have a fantastic year ahead, except 'nomes of course, because they are just fodder.

  I wanted to speak about the general sens of progression that hooks people in a game like Pantheon, and what you think are the ways to achieve that.

  The question is, not for those that have pledged and that are going to stay anyhow, but for an average MMO player that wants to like the game, but still needs to get hooked.

  At the very base, you have three hooks that are somewhat contradictory:

  • leveling: you want to feel your avatar to acquire new spells / combat skills / stats, etc. 
  • loot : you want to feel that you progress and get stronger by getting this new armor or that awesome new sword
  • exploration: again, being able to explore new horizons, being able to go where you couldn't before gives a sense of progression

  I know I am oversimplifying a bit, but feel free to give other criterii that you think makes you feel a sense of progression.

  1. Level: If you are leveling too fast (as it is the case in many games these days), you outgrow the exploration. A lot of places that could have been interesting to explore at an appropriate level become uninteresting. A lot of work that goes into designing quests, zones, dungeons becomes unused. Even if we consider that zones are not mono-levels, it stills means that parts of them, that you haven't explored as a young lad, will be trivial and thus wasted. And of course, that is also true for loot. Named that are below your level will probably not reward you with loot that is of any interest, in general. However, if leveling is too slow, how do you provide a sense of progression? Being too long to low level means that you won't be able to explore many places, or won't be able to go beyond the loot you already got. Would Alternative Abilities, starting at a very low level, be away to get a sense of progression? Imagine that you could put a certain % of your XP to AAs and become a better climber, swimmer, ...? You could have a low level progression and still get a bit better (I know there are the passive abilities that progress also, by doing stuff... but is it enough to get 0.1 better at sword swining? Do you feel the progress?). I do not have the answer. Just wondering.
  2. Loot: One can suppose that loot gets better with level. If loot is too rare, then you do not get any sense of progression from your equipement. If there is too much, then you basically do not care about it anymore because whatever, you'll be maxed out. There seems to be some sort of fine line between both. I know the devs have in mind some loot that is somewhat independent from levels, but that can only go so far. What solution could there be? Make loot somewhat rare but allow it to be enhanced by crafters? That could be a way of getting your loot to last longer until the next upgrade. But then, if the system is too complicated, or makes you dependent on crafters, new players may not invest in it and just feel that they have no sense of progression and quit.
  3. Exploration: exploration is of course, something fundamental. Exploration goes usually hand in hand with level and loot. Once you are tough enough, then you can go and explore new places that were out of reach before. I think we all agree that having park-theme zones with zone 1 from level 1 to 10, zone 2 from level 10 to 15, etc, is not something we like. Will there still be some way to move around without necessarily engage in mobs? Corpse runs can be very discouraging for new players. Getting randomly whacked and not being able to go back to your corpse because the red cons permacamp your remains... I remember, as a o=young ogress in EQ1, I went to some zone next to feerott (do not remember the name), landed on a clear beach just to see the red cons pop again. I got smacked and was not able to get my corpse back in  the week I had to recover my stuff. Almost quit out of frustration. 

  So what do you think about the fine balance that is required to get a satisfying sense of progression that can hook your average future Pantheon player?

  
  This post was edited by Grobobos at January 2, 2023 2:58 AM PST
• Jobeson

  

  • 810 posts
   

  January 2, 2023 5:54 AM PST

  I mean that is pretty much the core of why people are excited about Pantheon.

  By todays standards Pantheon will be a grind due to slower leveling and loot slowed down to match at a minimum and likely even slower so people are pushed towards crafting. 

  Exploration is multiple "alpha" points as well as a few possible extras.  Climbing, Swimming, the Keeper system, and possibly crawling (since we can do it while near dead I imagine the locomotion would be easy to implement to crawl into tight spaces finding secret paths and hidden spots) 

  Pantheon agro system even gives everyone a form of stealth which may or may not overlap with the rogues ability to overhear conversations.  Crouching reduces your agro range and I hope it means it can allow everyone to participate in eavesdropping around corners or in bushes etc.  Overhearing secret conversations is another form of exploration that at least the rogue proper stealth can do.

  Languages may or may not come up as well.  That hushed conversation may just be in elvish, hopefully you learned it. 

• Feastycentral

  

  • 146 posts
   

  January 2, 2023 10:11 AM PST

  I think the biggest hook is Pantheon's approach to leveling which makes the fun of the game the journey instead of the destination.

  Slowing down leveling while also making it challenging so that it's engaging will encourage the desire for more loot and exploration in a natural way. If going from level 15-25 will take 5 hours, I'm not spending 2 hours trying to get gear for lvl 15 when it'll be obsolete by the next day or two. However, if level 15-25 takes 20+ hours, now that 2 hour investment looking for loot is way more worthwhile. 

  The same with exploration. If a place feels too crowded or I feel I've seen a little bit of everything in a zone, I will start to look for other zones with similar level mobs. However, if I'll out level the zone in an hour or two then I'm going to stick it out. I'll do way less exploring when I those other zones are now way lower level (loses the challenge, fun, and sense of progression).

  This is all based on me and my experiences of playing MMO's. Others will likely see this very differently and prioritzie other hooks as their reason for playing.  

• Nabren

  

  • 12 posts
   

  January 2, 2023 7:07 PM PST

  I honestly think one of the best things about loot in EverQuest was the fact that magical equipment was very rare in classic, especially at lower levels.
  
  Getting a rare drop was extremely exciting and could last 20+ levels. By upgrading your gear, you truly noticed a significant power increase.
  
  Farming items was equally important as levelling, and it really made you explore instead of race to the end. Often times rare drop camps were not good XP camps, so it added to your choices of what to do when you logged on.
• Grobobos

  

  • 144 posts
   

  January 3, 2023 6:48 AM PST

  Feastycentral said:

  I think the biggest hook is Pantheon's approach to leveling which makes the fun of the game the journey instead of the destination.

  We agree, but that is a goal, not a way of achieving it. 

  Feastycentral said:

  Slowing down leveling while also making it challenging so that it's engaging will encourage the desire for more loot and exploration in a natural way. If going from level 15-25 will take 5 hours, I'm not spending 2 hours trying to get gear for lvl 15 when it'll be obsolete by the next day or two. However, if level 15-25 takes 20+ hours, now that 2 hour investment looking for loot is way more worthwhile. 

  I am not sure I agree completely with you here. Slowing down leveling means that your sense of progression does not come from leveling, or at least not rapidly. Each level obtained will be an achievement but in between, you need to make it so that it doesn't look like a grind fest as some asian MMOs used to propose. When a level lasts longer, gear will last longer but then it means that you will need more time to get said gear or otherwise you will loot multiples armors pieces during your level that you already have. So you basically have to slow down the drop rate of gear, which again means that the sense of progression is slowed down. Your character won't progress in a very meaningful way through leveling or gear. I don't say it can't be fun. I mean, investing time in your character to get the levels and gear is in some way a hook, but the question remains: why would a player invest time?

  Feastycentral said:

  The same with exploration. If a place feels too crowded or I feel I've seen a little bit of everything in a zone, I will start to look for other zones with similar level mobs. However, if I'll out level the zone in an hour or two then I'm going to stick it out. I'll do way less exploring when I those other zones are now way lower level (loses the challenge, fun, and sense of progression).

  This is all based on me and my experiences of playing MMO's. Others will likely see this very differently and prioritzie other hooks as their reason for playing.  

  Here we agree. But again the "I will start to look for other zones with similar level mobs" is not completely natural. It supposes that mobs of all levels are somewhat spread out. It seems that is the plan here, but admit that it is not the case in most MMOs.

  
  This post was edited by Grobobos at January 3, 2023 6:53 AM PST