Forums » The Elves

Will Ashen and Ember Elves available classes differ?

    • 27 posts
    August 8, 2022 8:03 AM PDT

    appologies if this has been discussed esle where already, but am curious if any classes will only available to one or the other.

    it might seem a little weird or silly to make such restrictions with them both residing in the same starter city. however I would assume with them having distinctly different driving forces (expansionists vs stewardship) that their guild halls (or any other sort of HQ / authority office) would be in seperate districts of the city, similar to how freeport's different regions were controlled by either the palidan/cleric guild or the warroir guild. now that doesnt mean there needs to be any open hostility between the two "houses" but it really wouldnt make much sense having the two factions sharing all their guildhalls when one leadership just wants to guard the keep while the other wants to seek out threats before they get to the gates. 

    my instincts would be to have the cleric, paladin class exclusive to the Ember elves and the druid, shaman exclusive to the Ashen elves. I could also see the rogue, wizard and enchanter lean more to the ember way of things while the ranger and summoner probably lean a little more twards the ashen way. the warrior and bard would probably be rather nuetral; however if rogue's were to be exclusive to the ember house I could see the bards becoming primarily ashen in order to ballance potential espionage intrigue in the future. 

    • 2004 posts
    August 8, 2022 10:07 AM PDT

    It's an interesting idea and could lead to a variety of strategies.

    However, given that the race/class matrix has never offered separate choices for Ashen and Ember, I'd say the chances are somewhere between extremely unlikely and zero.

    The latest matrix is here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/classes/

    • 27 posts
    August 8, 2022 11:08 AM PDT

    Aye, I would agree is probably unlikely. though to counter your matrix point the race page for elf shows different innate bonuses for the two lineages. there's already going to be some sort of difference between the two. I just feel like it would be a little weird if only difference was some lore flavor text and minor passives. 

    • 273 posts
    August 8, 2022 12:24 PM PDT

    I don't really think this has been officially addressed anywhere.

    I definitely think it makes sense for this division in elven society to be represented in-game. That being said, I don't really want to see classes limited to one faction or the other. The racial passives are already going to act as a soft division. The Ember Elves are going to be better for melee classes while the Ashen Elves are going to be better for casting classes. I feel like if you start implementing class restrictions, then any class pairing that doesn't end up matching with the beneficial faction is going to be ignored.  

    • 2004 posts
    August 8, 2022 6:16 PM PDT

    Tulac said:

    though to counter your matrix point the race page for elf shows different innate bonuses for the two lineages.

    I just feel like it would be a little weird if only difference was some lore flavor text and minor passives. 

    To be precise, each faction of Elf has 4 innates, 2 they share - Lucent Ancestery & Nimble - and 2 that are specific to the individul faction. The two that are specific to the faction may be called 'minor', but they already have greatly divided the factions among fans planning to play an elf, into the one better for melees, and the one better for magic users. We also don't yet know the degree to which there may be separate quest lines for the factions.

    It is certainly unique among the races in Pantheon to have 2 factions to chose from, but it's also true that Elves are one of the most popular non-human races in DnD themed games.

     

    FatedEmperor said:

    I don't really think this has been officially addressed anywhere.

    While your statement is technically true, it's also true that nowhere has it been "officially addressed" that Santa Claus won't be an endgame boss, or that a colony of Martians won't be found living somewhere on Whitethaw, or any other 'possibility' that one cares to suggest. VR could spend a huge amount of time "officially addressing" all the things that WON'T be in Pantheon.

    The race-class matrix can be found on the website going back to July 2017, and has never offered differing class choices for the elven factions. Additionally, the matrix was officially addressed only 2 months ago in the June Developer Stream. A whole bunch of changes were announced. Differing classes for Ashen & Ember were not. That's about as official as anything in Pantheon has ever been.

    Could they decide to change this later on? Sure. Is there any reason to think they will? Not currently.

     


    This post was edited by Jothany at August 8, 2022 6:18 PM PDT
    • 273 posts
    August 9, 2022 1:13 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    FatedEmperor said:

    I don't really think this has been officially addressed anywhere.

    While your statement is technically true, it's also true that nowhere has it been "officially addressed" that Santa Claus won't be an endgame boss, or that a colony of Martians won't be found living somewhere on Whitethaw, or any other 'possibility' that one cares to suggest. VR could spend a huge amount of time "officially addressing" all the things that WON'T be in Pantheon.

    The race-class matrix can be found on the website going back to July 2017, and has never offered differing class choices for the elven factions. Additionally, the matrix was officially addressed only 2 months ago in the June Developer Stream. A whole bunch of changes were announced. Differing classes for Ashen & Ember were not. That's about as official as anything in Pantheon has ever been.

    Could they decide to change this later on? Sure. Is there any reason to think they will? Not currently.

    I was merely stating that I didn't think VR had officially addressed this topic anywhere, as the OP was asking about the current plans for Ashen and Ember Elves. 

    That being said I am confused with the level of hostility that seems to come from your response. It is true that the current race and class matrix doesn't indicate a difference between the two factions of elves, and it is probably unlikely that there will be a difference. I am honestly hoping that there isn't a difference, and this is left up to player choice. However, elves are the only unique race to have two separate faction choices. The implications for picking either faction haven't really been discussed outside of the racial differences and some background lore that briefly discusses the goals of each faction. It would not be completely out of the realm of possibility for VR to expand upon this division and potentially link each faction to specific class choices, as your response seems to suggest. 


    This post was edited by FatedEmperor at August 9, 2022 1:14 PM PDT
    • 2004 posts
    August 9, 2022 3:49 PM PDT

    FatedEmperor said:

    I was merely stating that I didn't think VR had officially addressed this topic anywhere, as the OP was asking about the current plans for Ashen and Ember Elves. 

    That being said I am confused with the level of hostility that seems to come from your response. 

    I do tend to have a strong reaction to arguments that seem to me to be particularly illogical, as yours does here. If my reaction or the wording of it suggested hostility to you personally - rather than to your argument - then I apologize.

    VR gave us a specific list of which classes were available to each race - the matrix - 5 years ago. Two factions of Elf were a clearly defined part of the game at that time. Had there been different options planned for each faction, it would have made no sense not to included that fact in the matrix back then.

    As a current adjustment to their plans, VR spent significant time discussing some updates to that 5 year old list barely 2 months ago in a live stream. Updates which included two changes of the classes available to Elves specifically. Were they now seriously thinking about offering different choices to the factions, it would have made even less sense to not include that caveat in their update. Particularly given the large amount of debate and discussion engendered over the years about which classes should be available to which races and why.

    I find it at highly illogical - bordering on wishful thinking - to suggest that the clear, unambiguous statements VR has made concerning the classes available to Elves does not "address this topic". They do.

    Jothany said: Could they decide to change this later on? Sure. Is there any reason to think they will? Not currently.

    I believe my statement agrees that "It would not be completely out of the realm of possibility" for VR to change their minds on this. Just that nothing they have ever said (that I know about) suggests that they will.

    • 273 posts
    August 9, 2022 7:37 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    I do tend to have a strong reaction to arguments that seem to me to be particularly illogical, as yours does here. If my reaction or the wording of it suggested hostility to you personally - rather than to your argument - then I apologize.

    VR gave us a specific list of which classes were available to each race - the matrix - 5 years ago. Two factions of Elf were a clearly defined part of the game at that time. Had there been different options planned for each faction, it would have made no sense not to included that fact in the matrix back then.

    As a current adjustment to their plans, VR spent significant time discussing some updates to that 5 year old list barely 2 months ago in a live stream. Updates which included two changes of the classes available to Elves specifically. Were they now seriously thinking about offering different choices to the factions, it would have made even less sense to not include that caveat in their update. Particularly given the large amount of debate and discussion engendered over the years about which classes should be available to which races and why.

    I find it at highly illogical - bordering on wishful thinking - to suggest that the clear, unambiguous statements VR has made concerning the classes available to Elves does not "address this topic". They do.

    Jothany said: Could they decide to change this later on? Sure. Is there any reason to think they will? Not currently. 

    I believe my statement agrees that "It would not be completely out of the realm of possibility" for VR to change their minds on this. Just that nothing they have ever said (that I know about) suggests that they will.



    I didn't really take your response personally, it just seemed to contain a degree of hostility. I also wasn't trying to make an argument. I merely stated a fact "It hasn't been officially addressed anywhere" and that I would like to see the differences play out in their culture, but not affect classes available to each faction. 

    Now If you want to use the race class matrix as definitive proof, I can respect that and I can understand where you're coming from. I am also willing to agree that based on race/class matrix it does seem highly unlikely. However, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility unlike "Santa Claus" and "Martians", and you yourself also admitted that you don't find it completely out of the realm of possibility. So, it's not completely illogical to be open to the possibility that it could happen, even if it does appear highly unlikely that it will.

    That being said, right now, the only things I am willing to consider as hard facts are things they show off or directly talk about. As such, my response to a post like this one tend to be more open-minded and willing to entertain the possibility that things could change. Once the game progresses into alpha and things become more hard-locked and way less likely to change, then that's the point I am willing to start reading between the lines a bit more and taking things at their face value. 


    This post was edited by FatedEmperor at August 9, 2022 7:38 PM PDT
    • 57 posts
    August 10, 2022 10:02 AM PDT

    While not little green/grey men named Marvin, every playable race is alien to Terminus.

    • 3142 posts
    August 10, 2022 12:20 PM PDT

    I imagine there will be some in-game references and such however I don't think they'd have entirely separate guild halls or districts etc. They are far more alike than they are different and exist in a peaceful discord, not to mention the most numerous elves are the Lucent. 

    • 27 posts
    August 10, 2022 8:12 PM PDT

    FatedEmperor said:

    The racial passives are already going to act as a soft division. The Ember Elves are going to be better for melee classes while the Ashen Elves are going to be better for casting classes. I feel like if you start implementing class restrictions, then any class pairing that doesn't end up matching with the beneficial faction is going to be ignored.  



    sure, a certain percent of the player base going to definately aim for that min max build, but there's still plenty of people who will play the combo they prefer. that said the split i suggested would've mostly keep caster/melee on respective passives anyways. also as mmo's progress the character creation meta tends to evolve. once people start to explore end game or as expansion drop character creation stats and passives might hit an overflow point where it's better min max to take the melee def passive for a caster for instance. 

    as for the overall debate on class/race restrictions, it's already a big part of this type of world/game. those restrictions tend to be lore based and to balance out different pro's and con's. this is why humans always have access to all classes to ballance for thier middle of road stats. currently dark mir and elves have access to 12 of 14 and 11 of 14 of all classes while the rest of races fall between 4-7 available. we don't have enough info yet about racial base stats (str, int, etc) and factions to definatively say one way or another; but that ballance feels a little off to me assuming everything falls even remotely closely to genre norms. 


    Jothany said:

    The two that are specific to the faction may be called 'minor', but they already have greatly divided the factions among fans planning to play an elf, into the one better for melees, and the one better for magic users. We also don't yet know the degree to which there may be separate quest lines for the factions.

    It is certainly unique among the races in Pantheon to have 2 factions to chose from, but it's also true that Elves are one of the most popular non-human races in DnD themed games.



    I would argue a bit on the fans being "greatly divided" over innate passives. I would probably agree with that sentiment among the current active community following pantheons developement, but that population is a fraction of it's potential player base. any community actively following and being vocal on a game in this stage of developement is going to have a higher percentage of players who are more "hardcore" no-lifer min maxer types (myself included to an extent lol). as for the overall potential player base, people are going to play w/e they want regardless. I also mentioned above in my reply to fated that min max meta tends to evolve anyways.

    appologies for any ignorance below if some things have been covered during round tables. havent been watching closely for a few years and last time did a lore dive was probably 2017.

    Your mention of separate quest lines is intriguing but also just gives me more questions lol. makes me curious if there will be quests locked to race regardless of how good faction gets. which also makes me think bout deities. do we know if we will be seeing a deity option during character creation or not? last i recall i think i read something bout the gods going silent for the races once they were sent to terminus or am i misremembering, so am curious how big of a role that governing deities would play if they're not active in the world.



    Iksar said:

    I imagine there will be some in-game references and such however I don't think they'd have entirely separate guild halls or districts etc. They are far more alike than they are different and exist in a peaceful discord, not to mention the most numerous elves are the Lucent. 


    are Lucent a third? thought that was just an ancestory thing, like what all elves used to be before the hardship thing.

    I'm not suggesting that there isnt peace or that the general public keep to seperate districts. more that the extreme's of the society, who are framed in some ways polar oppisite and disagree about their own lore (prophesy) according to the page on elves would potentially control different departments of their society. look at it like a difference between having a city watch that's seperate from your standing army that would march out for war. 99% of the time those are two seperate organizations who train seperatly, live seperatly and rarely interact on that day to day but would still come together in a time of need. kinda like how in the states we have Active Army who are full time versus National Guard who do their own thing entirely, more or less the same organization and fight side by side but are still distinctly seperate from eachother due to their main objectives.


    This post was edited by Tulac at August 10, 2022 8:14 PM PDT
    • 3142 posts
    August 11, 2022 11:21 AM PDT

    From the Loremaster himself: 

    All Elves are born Lucent then may become Ashen, Ember or remain Lucent. Ember and Ashen are powerful branches within the larger Elven tree, yet not trees of their own.

    While there are certainly hereditary bents or traits toward one or the other (or to stay Lucent), there is no DNA-based, predetermined course. Are there families who challenge this fact because of their strict adherence to one side or the other? Sure, and there are rebels, purists, favored sons and black sheep just like any other family tree.

    As for the apparent physical differences between the two, there are some lore-based reasons I'd like to mention.

    First, the Ashen deliberately avoid bringing additional attention to themselves. That isn't to say their ceremonies aren't striking or their clothing is a burlap sack, but they would rather seek to elevate the stories and scriptures of their people than their own image. They are genuinely pious and humble. As for their pale complexion, Ashen will 1) spend less time outdoors and thus in sunlight than other Elves, on account of their study-based lifestyle and daily habits. 2) They will paint their faces in white-grey ash for ceremony or in times of meditation or battle. This will often remain in the skin, even after ceremonial washing, and they may apply a faux ash powder to keep the skin a similar color. Along with this they often dye their hair a coal black and straighten it like a slab of marble.

    Ember are much the opposite -- at least within the bounds of Elven tastes. They aren't flashy in a Thronefastian sense, but they are far more comfortable with making an entrance than an Ashen would be. They enjoy the outdoors and the animal kingdom, counting many as companions. Ember love nature for its colorful array along with its preserving and enduring strengths, and their hair, clothing and complexion reflect that admiration. The freckles on the female Ember would be visible on the male Ashen, if they weren’t covered up.

     

    Additionally you can read this older newsletter talking about Elven lore.

    • 1301 posts
    November 8, 2022 6:25 AM PST

    That's a very valid question concidering that the Ashen and Ember Elves equivalent in EQ (Teir`Dal, Feir`Dal and Koada`Dal) absolutely had different classes available.  I will say that even if there isn't different class availability, we will likely only see certain classes playing Ashen or Ember solely due to the passive bonuses available to each.


    This post was edited by Darch at November 8, 2022 6:26 AM PST