I don't post too often on the forums, but I had some recent experiences with some new games I thought were interesting enough to share.
Some time ago, I had voiced the opinion that Pantheon's delays would ultimately lead to its overshadowing by the myriad of new MMOs hitting the market before it (Lost Ark, New World, Ashes of Creation, Diablo 4...). Well maybe unsurprisingly the games that have released, in my opinion, are still no replacement to what Pantheon will likely be. There are still 2 more games that have a lot of attention on the way (Ashes of Creation, and Diablo 4), but I think at this point it's a high probability that neither will be anything close to the design of Pantheon.
Ultimately, I was wrong about how these new games would pan out. New World was a complete flop, there is almost nobody playing it anymore (averaging 11k users a day at best). It's worth noting that Lost Ark is very popular averaging over 500k unique users a day, but the game will die out as time goes on, and these numbers are likely inflated significantly by bots (recently they banned over 1m accounts due to automation).
Now what I really came here to say, I played Lost Ark quite a lot after its release, and several months in now I can confidently say it has some pretty terrible elements to its design. And the rest of this post is going to highlight some things in Lost Ark I'm hoping Pantheon avoids as much as possible:
No sense of accomplishment
What an astonishing thing to miss in an RPG! The "work equals reward" method in this game is taken to the next level where redudancy is king, and difficulty is minimal. All the questing is basically ancillary, and a fraction of the time you'll spend in comparison to other activities. No, the majority of time won't be spent doing anything fun, you'll be grinding the same exact thing for days, weeks, even months. Why? Because you can only do many of these things a limited amount of times per day, and when you're done there's nothing more to do for you on that day besides some ancillary content (which is, guess what, redundant and uninteresting). There is no "allure" to other players gear, and no level of prestige to those items since the difficulty to gain them is so tangible it's unimpressive.
Toxic Community
This part is going to be very interesting. I've never witnessed so many hate posts on reddit coming from an MMORPG. The reddit page has no shortage of posts dismantling user's gear, and character setups for anything non-meta. The community forgets that some people are just playing the game, not browsing the internet for "the best setup" or what's optimal. Even worse, since this game was released in the U.S. a few years after its Korean debut, the community is incredibly toxic to players who don't know the raid mechanics, and there's a precedence for user's to have watched YouTube before entering into a new fight. Gone are the days of having the joy of figuring out a new boss for yourself as a group, or having the sense of coming together. It's hard for me to put into words what an absolutely abyssmal feeling it is to be required to research a boss fight before doing it. Couple this with the party finder system, where you can essentially just ditch an entire raid for a new one and try again, and you've created the perfect toxic environment where nobody is permanent or needs to spend time together.
Constant Road Blocks
Alright so I'm also a designer, and engineer, and this one hits home as personal pet peeve. The game is riddled with measures gated by a clock. This means you can only do some action "N" number of times per day. Their faction system has a limit of ~5 times you can increase it with an NPC per day. Their dungeons have a limited number of 2 times per day that you can run them. A lot of their side quests, and completionist content has the same time gates where instead of placing in interesting design, it was replaced with a hard NO and "please, try again tomorrow". Their card collection system makes you buy extra space to collect all the cards, even though there's no real benefit to having all of them. There's a part of the game called "Reputation" which is like faction, and requires you to do the same quest "N" amount of times, but can only do the quest once per day. A lot of these things are pointless, only in place to slow you down, get you to spend, and in the most uninteresting way possible: you simply cannot do it again.
Big Spenders
This one is tough. Games need to make money, and it's hard to stay competitive when you are against free to play models with buy in features. Luckily the U.S. gamers abhore pay to win features, and have advocated against it in the MMO genre as much as possible. Lost Ark as I mentioned has no sense of accomplishment, everything is obtainable, so why would someone who spends a lot money have an impact to the game? I'm glad you asked (self high five), when people spend a lot and become much further progressed than you, it can feel like any work you put in is meaningless. Sure the gear is obtainable eventually...but that fact that new content comes out and people are instantly in the best gear makes whatever you do feel like nothing. Every moment from that day forward where you are putting in time, and not competing, feels to some like their efforts are marginalized. Others won't care about spenders, but people trying to get that sense of "work equals reward" will feel slighted by someone skipping the work part.
So if you've made it this far, the conclusion is that Pantheon is still very promising, and hopefully avoids the game designs we are seeing coming from the East.
Interesting to hear you thoughts. I try most things that come along and keep an eye on most things up-and-coming and have never been worried for Pantheon, though.
VR appear to be the only ones really trying to bring an old school core experience up-to-date for a new MMORPG.
It's a gutsy thing, I suppose, and if you're a gutless modern exec you'll be used to wanting your projects getting great quarterly figures for a year so you can move up or on or both.
Maybe I'm being harsh there on "the industry", but seriously, it's what we see, isn't it? Companies - not just game developers - appear largely only interested in producing mass-appeal mush with limited longevity. Getting good 'figures' and dividends and then blaming lack of longevity on something else before moving on to 'the next thing'.
I'm not really too worried about any aspect of Pantheon - I reckon 'good' is 'good' and the old-school, ready-made fanbase desperate for it is probably viable enough, but there will be plenty of 'average gamers' on top of that who will try it and find they love it.
One of your comments reminds me of an aspect that concerns me somewhat, though, I suppose: The tendancy for people to watch YouTube to learn how to 'beat' the game rather than just enjoying playing it and working it out. And how that effects a community.
I'm not sure how players can be encouraged to not 'cheat' and, more importantly, not pressure others to 'cheat' or give others a hard time for not 'cheating'.
Back in the day (...that phrase!) guilds raid leaders would discuss strategies on private message boards and would instruct raid groups on their roles, etc. Strategies would slowly evolve over attempts and feedback. Tactics would vary over different guilds. Cross-pollenation would occur. Eventually, non-guild collectives would be able to do them, but that would be many months or years down the line.
The tendency these days may be to just send a YouTube link and text "learn this for Friday" and that's a bit sad.
I'm hoping the challenge level and somewhat dynamic nature of Patheon will help this not be quite so instant and simple as it could be. I'm hoping the community will not only tolerate, but tend toward a more organic approach.
I'm interested to hear what others (and VR) think.
Thanks for your comments about your experience. That's a game I haven't tried and didn't plan on trying, but so much of what you said applies to the other games I have tried. Here's to hoping Pantheon is able to keep it different!!
disposalist said:One of your comments reminds me of an aspect that concerns me somewhat, though, I suppose: The tendancy for people to watch YouTube to learn how to 'beat' the game rather than just enjoying playing it and working it out. And how that effects a community.
I'm not sure how players can be encouraged to not 'cheat' and, more importantly, not pressure others to 'cheat' or give others a hard time for not 'cheating'.
Back in the day (...that phrase!) guilds raid leaders would discuss strategies on private message boards and would instruct raid groups on their roles, etc. Strategies would slowly evolve over attempts and feedback. Tactics would vary over different guilds. Cross-pollenation would occur. Eventually, non-guild collectives would be able to do them, but that would be many months or years down the line.
The tendency these days may be to just send a YouTube link and text "learn this for Friday" and that's a bit sad.
I'm hoping the challenge level and somewhat dynamic nature of Patheon will help this not be quite so instant and simple as it could be. I'm hoping the community will not only tolerate, but tend toward a more organic approach.
I'm interested to hear what others (and VR) think.
This was my thought as well when I read that part. I do think there are going to be plenty of people playing Pantheon that play it as a game, and their main goal is going to be to complete content. I have no problem with people playing like that. The people who do not want to play like that will just have to remain firm and find each other. I'm hoping to spend my time playing with people that, in general, prefer to live and learn the world rather than look up quests and boss fights. If I can find a group of people who would rather die 4 or 5 times trying to learn an encounter than use spoilers, I'll be a happy camper.
If I do find myself in a situation where I have an opportunity to join a raid if I'm willing to go watch the youtube version of the raid first I'll have to make that choice when the time comes, but at this point I'll say that I hope my answer is "No thank you, I'll pass."
Dailies, gear scores, speedrun dungeons, no social contract, timegated grinds, currency grinding / cash shop for top gear.
Oh and "the game begins at max level".
The banes of most modern 'MMOs'.
Ranarius said:Thanks for your comments about your experience. That's a game I haven't tried and didn't plan on trying, but so much of what you said applies to the other games I have tried. Here's to hoping Pantheon is able to keep it different!!
disposalist said:One of your comments reminds me of an aspect that concerns me somewhat, though, I suppose: The tendancy for people to watch YouTube to learn how to 'beat' the game rather than just enjoying playing it and working it out. And how that effects a community.
I'm not sure how players can be encouraged to not 'cheat' and, more importantly, not pressure others to 'cheat' or give others a hard time for not 'cheating'.
Back in the day (...that phrase!) guilds raid leaders would discuss strategies on private message boards and would instruct raid groups on their roles, etc. Strategies would slowly evolve over attempts and feedback. Tactics would vary over different guilds. Cross-pollenation would occur. Eventually, non-guild collectives would be able to do them, but that would be many months or years down the line.
The tendency these days may be to just send a YouTube link and text "learn this for Friday" and that's a bit sad.
I'm hoping the challenge level and somewhat dynamic nature of Patheon will help this not be quite so instant and simple as it could be. I'm hoping the community will not only tolerate, but tend toward a more organic approach.
I'm interested to hear what others (and VR) think.
This was my thought as well when I read that part. I do think there are going to be plenty of people playing Pantheon that play it as a game, and their main goal is going to be to complete content. I have no problem with people playing like that. The people who do not want to play like that will just have to remain firm and find each other. I'm hoping to spend my time playing with people that, in general, prefer to live and learn the world rather than look up quests and boss fights. If I can find a group of people who would rather die 4 or 5 times trying to learn an encounter than use spoilers, I'll be a happy camper.
If I do find myself in a situation where I have an opportunity to join a raid if I'm willing to go watch the youtube version of the raid first I'll have to make that choice when the time comes, but at this point I'll say that I hope my answer is "No thank you, I'll pass."
I don't care at all to be competitive either - I will ignore that kind of thing and play my way - but if the game allows, enables or encourages the modern tendancy to gamify, use spoilers, and rush to 'beat' it, it will mean the 'average player', who won't be used to old school MMORPGs, may never get to appreciate all that an old school style game can be.
I think that the effect it has on "the community" will still be felt by those of us choosing to ignore things like spoiler vids.
The same goes for add-ons, Play Nice Policy and lots of other aspects we discuss in these forums.
We can say we will ignore the way others play, and, of course, we can, but to think it will not effect us is, I think, naive.
We will all be the poorer if the modern gamers that are attracted by Pantheon end up being able to take the same old modern MMORPG path of least resistence.
The community of like-minded people that 'old school' players hope to find in Pantheon will be considerably smaller and diverse than it could have been.
As far as PtW, people talk about whales, but there is far little evidence to support they exist except for the insistence of people to say that they do yet cannot provide public documentation to support except their assurance- my attitude is almost like an athiest observing the evangelistic faithful. (<-I didn't specify...) In fact the only evidence a savvy person was able to obtain on these forums in a past post, showed that based on the records available, a "whale" is someone- or rather it is observed- that the average total amount spent by a player is 250USD total over the life of their gaming tenure of that game. This included Fortnite. Your disposable income may vary and I have no problem with people doing what they want after all it is disposable. I do have a problem with those telling the emperor the fabric they are making the clothing from is the finest in the land and only the smart people can see it, but the idiotic masses cannot see it at all. I dont think a game should be designed with the intent to imply that deception. Unfortunately, that business model worked initially and it is being chased down, still.
I find myself in a grey area on multigroup/raid content. When trying a new event you really need core leadership making the decisions of what to try. Otherwise it becomes a shout-fest of the masses insisting on attempts of their ideas and re-insisting if it did not succeed for nt doing it "right" because they imagined an assured success. I also appreciate Toxic Uber guilds in this aspect, because they are the ones that sometimes can break the initial strategy before others. Not all uber guilds are toxic but their drive is sometimes perceived as abrasive. Back in the day, they would not share their strats at all let alone post them, just say they won and show off their gear in game so it was good to try to get friendly to maybe get some pieces of strat. Likewise there is the nicest casual group guild that cant even zerg through old multigropup content and its frustrating to see.
Retention is the key. What other MMO would have players and their children playing? when the players have children. A MMO that has a certain pace that allows such a thing and keeps them coming back? (I know one!~) How many parents play fortnite? That is not the intent, but the vibe is such that allows it. Retention over years into double digits- including a return, with subs.
disposalist said:We can say we will ignore the way others play, and, of course, we can, but to think it will not effect us is, I think, naive.
Totally agree. I would fight to the bitter end to completely ban spoilers and videos if I believed it could actually happen. I guess my more realistic goal is to try to surround myself with like minded people and "band together" to take a stand on certain things. If enough of us can show the value in the way we play maybe it'll help others learn to appreciate it.
disposalist said:One of your comments reminds me of an aspect that concerns me somewhat, though, I suppose: The tendancy for people to watch YouTube to learn how to 'beat' the game rather than just enjoying playing it and working it out. And how that effects a community.
I'm not sure how players can be encouraged to not 'cheat' and, more importantly, not pressure others to 'cheat' or give others a hard time for not 'cheating'.
Back in the day (...that phrase!) guilds raid leaders would discuss strategies on private message boards and would instruct raid groups on their roles, etc. Strategies would slowly evolve over attempts and feedback. Tactics would vary over different guilds. Cross-pollenation would occur. Eventually, non-guild collectives would be able to do them, but that would be many months or years down the line.
I myself am torn about this.
Back in the day, 1999-2004, there was no YouTube, but we had a few forums where people shared information and argued about different aspects of EverQuest. The forum that Sony ran was awful, but we hadEQMagicians, our Guild had its own forum, there was a Trade Skill forum, and I seem to recall another General EQ Forum that wasn't Sony's. I learned a lot, I shared a lot. In lieu of playing in Alpha, I am inhabiting this forum.
In the modern day, I frequently use YouTube to learn to play board games, or to see examples of play. I consume YouTube content for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen, and Ashes of Creation.
In general, when I am mastering any game, I read up, and participate in Forums.
But...but...but!
I remember the first time I played EverQuest, and how what really struck me hard was the sense of being someplace. I remember the joy of discovering the game, the places, the lore, the strategies, new friends. What I really want out of Pantheon is that sense of discovery, but also of mastery. I can't imagine abandoning this forum once I start playing, and I am not sure I can avoid YouTube, especially once Alpha starts. I want to see, and I am sure I will have something to say.
That said, my plan from the beginning is to have my first character in Pantheon be my "Scout," to learn the basics of the game, and to explore the terrain. Once I felt comfortable enough, I would start my Main Character, and build my story and primary engagement with the peoples of Terminus. Finally, I would make a Dwarven Crafter Merchant.
So I guess it's really up to me.
Ranarius said:Totally agree. I would fight to the bitter end to completely ban spoilers and videos if I believed it could actually happen. I guess my more realistic goal is to try to surround myself with like minded people and "band together" to take a stand on certain things. If enough of us can show the value in the way we play maybe it'll help others learn to appreciate it.
I had stint with WoW classic recently, in that scenario I was fine with reviewing the boss fights since I already did it 15 years or whatever. But yeah for new stuff, the discovery part of it, and sense of accomplishment needs to be there to make it a truly memorable experience.
What we've seen happen with the recent MMO's that have released have only strengthened my belief that Pantheon is on the right path and will ultimiately be successful, even if it takes some time. We probably will see a massive influx of players to start just like the other MMO's that have released. What happens next is hard to predict, but even if there is a huge backlash against the game initially because people just are not used to this type of game, the core that get it will continue to play. Then slowly the numbers will start to increase again as the core players reel in people, opening them up to a different way of approaching Pantheon. The seeds are all there. I see it in how my 11 year old and their friends approach games and what they enjoy. That generation will love Pantheon, especially if they have guides and mentors in the game.
The point about Youtube and spoilers is well taken. As someone who plans on streaming Pantheon, not to instruct people how to play but as a form of storytelling, there is just no way around all that info will be out there. I certainly don't plan on watching spoilers and I also want to surround myself with players who want to discover Terminus with me without such aids. As others have mentioned, we will have to just surround ourselves with like minded players and hopefully there will be enough people who feel the same way to insulate from all the information that will be available. That will be a daunting task but well worth the effort.
I've been thinking about these two ideas a lot, how to set the expectations of new players to Pantheon so they can get the most enjoyment out of the game and utialize Youtube not to provide spoilers but immerse players into the world. The addage of "show don't tell" applies here. Prior to Pantheon's release, the more game play footage that highlights this I think would be really helpful. Some of the very early dev streams come to mind where they were just engaging the world. The more VR can lay the groundwork for a different approach to MMO's ahead of its release the better.
I agree with the longevity aspect to some of the more recent games being their ultimate shortcoming. I am currently playing Lost Ark, mostly because its free so I figured I'd give it a shot. From the get-go, I only ever intended it to be a stop-gap while I wait for a more traditional MMO that I have always preferred. (I'd played enough Diablo 3 to have an idea of what to expect). I've just passed 1340 gear score and finished the Bellion Ruins storyline, and my opinion hasn't changed in the slightest. Its a well made game and I am enjoying it, but it will never be the game I invest 7 years in like I did Everquest. I also have a feeling that, eventually, I'm going to run into that plateau like I did in Neverwinter, where using real money to purchase upgrades will simply become a necessity to advance.
While I am anxious for Pantheon, I REALLY want them to get it right, and so I am willing to wait. I want a game I will spend years in, not something that feels temporary till the next distraction comes out. I miss being a part of moderate-hard core raid guild that is willing to spend 10 wipes figuring out mechanics. I still maintain friendships I made back in 1999 because of that type of gameplay and experience it provided.
Eolair said:I agree with the longevity aspect to some of the more recent games being their ultimate shortcoming. I am currently playing Lost Ark, mostly because its free so I figured I'd give it a shot. From the get-go, I only ever intended it to be a stop-gap while I wait for a more traditional MMO that I have always preferred. (I'd played enough Diablo 3 to have an idea of what to expect). I've just passed 1340 gear score and finished the Bellion Ruins storyline, and my opinion hasn't changed in the slightest. Its a well made game and I am enjoying it, but it will never be the game I invest 7 years in like I did Everquest. I also have a feeling that, eventually, I'm going to run into that plateau like I did in Neverwinter, where using real money to purchase upgrades will simply become a necessity to advance.
While I am anxious for Pantheon, I REALLY want them to get it right, and so I am willing to wait. I want a game I will spend years in, not something that feels temporary till the next distraction comes out. I miss being a part of moderate-hard core raid guild that is willing to spend 10 wipes figuring out mechanics. I still maintain friendships I made back in 1999 because of that type of gameplay and experience it provided.
I couldn't agree with your sentiments more. That's pretty much verbatim where I'm at.
Eolair said:I agree with the longevity aspect to some of the more recent games being their ultimate shortcoming. I am currently playing Lost Ark, mostly because its free so I figured I'd give it a shot. From the get-go, I only ever intended it to be a stop-gap while I wait for a more traditional MMO that I have always preferred. (I'd played enough Diablo 3 to have an idea of what to expect). I've just passed 1340 gear score and finished the Bellion Ruins storyline, and my opinion hasn't changed in the slightest. Its a well made game and I am enjoying it, but it will never be the game I invest 7 years in like I did Everquest. I also have a feeling that, eventually, I'm going to run into that plateau like I did in Neverwinter, where using real money to purchase upgrades will simply become a necessity to advance.
While I am anxious for Pantheon, I REALLY want them to get it right, and so I am willing to wait. I want a game I will spend years in, not something that feels temporary till the next distraction comes out. I miss being a part of moderate-hard core raid guild that is willing to spend 10 wipes figuring out mechanics. I still maintain friendships I made back in 1999 because of that type of gameplay and experience it provided.
My enthusiasm for Lost Ark died when I failed 14/15 attempts to reach tier 2's gearscore. I can't play pay2wins, and I think a lot of people are mistaken in preferring that kind of game to a subscription. I will happily pay $15-$20 a month to have access to the whole game without RNG grindfests designed to frustrate you to the point of opening your wallet to get past them. Unfortunately that describes a lot of MMOs these days.
I will happily pay $15-$20 a month to have access to the whole game without RNG grindfests designed to frustrate you to the point of opening your wallet to get past them. Unfortunately that describes a lot of MMOs these days.
I hope you don't think we're in any sort of disagreement, because we're not. I am in 100% agreement that I prefer the subscription based MMO to the F2P, for multiple reasons. One, because F2P inevitably becomes P2W. But in addition to that, subscription based games generally have better in-game customer service and overall response times to issues and complaints. Well, yeah, we're actually "paying" customers. If Pantheon was released as a $15 a month MMO, I would be abso-freaking-lutelly thrilled.
I always laugh when folks say that (insert current MMO) will make folks forget about Pantheon. I pay alot of attention to new MMOS and not a single one of them has what Pantheon has. Their primary draw is that they look good. Folks get mesmerized by graphics primarily and still think that graphics magically equates to good, immersive gameplay when we all have seen that it does not.
After watching streams of those MMOS by folks who were really hyped for them, I find them interesting enough, but they all still have the same uninspired questing and other mecahnics from every other similar MMO. But, again, folks criticize Pantheon's graphics and ignore the unimaginative gameplay and systems that their MMO has. They seem like they are forcing themselves to accept their games many shortcomings becasue the game looks good. That wears off after awhile and they move on to the next graphically fantastic looking MMO.
I'm happy that VR is focusing on the world, class identity, gameplay and systems first, and will beautify the game once they are closer to release. It is a development process that no other game is doing that I'm aware of. I admit it's challenging when trying to get others onboard, but that just helps sift out the masses who are only interested in visuals vs those who want a deep gameplay experience. It exposes the superficialness of far too many modern MMO players. But, I believe that there is more than enough folks looking for something more profound. I also think that those who will only acknowledge Pantheon once the 'beautification' takes place will be in awe of the entirety of the game once they play for some time.
I will not be playing with groups who have a rush or endgame mentality, at least not on a regular basis. You are bound to encounter them at some point. I will be intentionally looking for adventurers and explorers. As some have already said, this is, probably, my last hurrah with MMOS. I may give AoC a try, but I'm not going into it with any expectations because, although interesting, they have not equalled the depths of gameplay, combat and immersive systems that Pantheon has. Too many are falling into that mesmerizing trap of UnReal 5 graphics and other superficial things, and not enough attention to deep and meaningful gameplay and systems. We will see as time progresses though. AoC might surprise us.
Pantheon seems to be the first modern MMO that will combine decent visuals with profound and deep systems, while most modern MMOS only offer visuals. Pantheon will be unique in that aspect and will shake up the MMO scene when released.
Dikenzu said:I always laugh when folks say that (insert current MMO) will make folks forget about Pantheon. I pay alot of attention to new MMOS and not a single one of them has what Pantheon has. Their primary draw is that they look good. Folks get mesmerized by graphics primarily and still think that graphics magically equates to good, immersive gameplay when we all have seen that it does not.
You know what's really weird about that assumption (that good visuals = good gameplay), it seems to be predominantly in MMOs and FPS game types. People will play other games with bad graphics if the game is undeniably good. But I think that sentiment carries over to MMOs a little bit a least. I mean look at WOW, it's still going, and that's definitely dated.
Thorndeep said:[...]
The point about Youtube and spoilers is well taken. As someone who plans on streaming Pantheon, not to instruct people how to play but as a form of storytelling, there is just no way around all that info will be out there. I certainly don't plan on watching spoilers and I also want to surround myself with players who want to discover Terminus with me without such aids. As others have mentioned, we will have to just surround ourselves with like minded players and hopefully there will be enough people who feel the same way to insulate from all the information that will be available. That will be a daunting task but well worth the effort.
[...]
*blorp* My idea! give me credit and accolades and encouragement forever! being: If you stream as a form of storytelling - ooh!- I would say stay in character in discord or twitch, and make sure all your players in group do, too. If you wanted to get fancy, you may need someone to manage camera angles to pivot to faces as another speaks or pivot out to third person (pre-reqs would be everyone would need to know all the emotes), but thats a style choice because then- you'd be Critical Role but instead of on a table top? IN GAME living what only DnD players imagine on the table top. and instead of character pics and stats down below in the margin, maybe RL pics and small details - HA! remember, the view is the game, you all are on the margins- and a mod to monitor the chat:) bonus days where maybe you have played the encounter but are doing it again for stream unbeknownst to the audience and you can stop at times you know are good and...take audience suggestions as to what to do next and act upon them :D Like, you've been to the TotRM, all spires and know named and mini-bosses they may be juuuust a bit too tough for you. You go in and suddenly the Dire Lord skar breaks the fourth wall and asks where you should go next. Cacophony in the chat, someone thught they saw a named pass by, chat screams named, you all, in character, react to chat at such a choice but go ahead anyways :) I imagine it could be cool, for shut ins or those looking for a kind of entertainment.
Manouk said:Thorndeep said:[...]
The point about Youtube and spoilers is well taken. As someone who plans on streaming Pantheon, not to instruct people how to play but as a form of storytelling, there is just no way around all that info will be out there. I certainly don't plan on watching spoilers and I also want to surround myself with players who want to discover Terminus with me without such aids. As others have mentioned, we will have to just surround ourselves with like minded players and hopefully there will be enough people who feel the same way to insulate from all the information that will be available. That will be a daunting task but well worth the effort.
[...]
*blorp* My idea! give me credit and accolades and encouragement forever! being: If you stream as a form of storytelling - ooh!- I would say stay in character in discord or twitch, and make sure all your players in group do, too. If you wanted to get fancy, you may need someone to manage camera angles to pivot to faces as another speaks or pivot out to third person (pre-reqs would be everyone would need to know all the emotes), but thats a style choice because then- you'd be Critical Role but instead of on a table top? IN GAME living what only DnD players imagine on the table top. and instead of character pics and stats down below in the margin, maybe RL pics and small details - HA! remember, the view is the game, you all are on the margins- and a mod to monitor the chat:) bonus days where maybe you have played the encounter but are doing it again for stream unbeknownst to the audience and you can stop at times you know are good and...take audience suggestions as to what to do next and act upon them :D Like, you've been to the TotRM, all spires and know named and mini-bosses they may be juuuust a bit too tough for you. You go in and suddenly the Dire Lord skar breaks the fourth wall and asks where you should go next. Cacophony in the chat, someone thught they saw a named pass by, chat screams named, you all, in character, react to chat at such a choice but go ahead anyways :) I imagine it could be cool, for shut ins or those looking for a kind of entertainment.
This is exactly what I am working towards. I've had this vision for years now and have been working on gathering a group of players with the willingness and skills to pull it off.
Manouk said:As far as PtW, people talk about whales, but there is far little evidence to support they exist except for the insistence of people to say that they do yet cannot provide public documentation to support except their assurance- my attitude is almost like an athiest observing the evangelistic faithful. (<-I didn't specify...) In fact the only evidence a savvy person was able to obtain on these forums in a past post, showed that based on the records available, a "whale" is someone- or rather it is observed- that the average total amount spent by a player is 250USD total over the life of their gaming tenure of that game. This included Fortnite. Your disposable income may vary and I have no problem with people doing what they want after all it is disposable. I do have a problem with those telling the emperor the fabric they are making the clothing from is the finest in the land and only the smart people can see it, but the idiotic masses cannot see it at all. I dont think a game should be designed with the intent to imply that deception. Unfortunately, that business model worked initially and it is being chased down, still.
Thorndeep said:Manouk said:Thorndeep said:[...]
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This is exactly what I am working towards. I've had this vision for years now and have been working on gathering a group of players with the willingness and skills to pull it off.
Woot! do it! I would imagine there would be some logistics to coordinate. I hope you find a "groove" where the team can improv on the fly.
Desryn said:
I highly recommend looking into some interviews/talks with Chris Wilson from Grinding Gear Games. They've been very open about their F2P model and have clearly identified and factualized the existence of whales in their game, which has an almost completely cosmetic approach to a cash shop. I'm not one for extrapolating, but you can guess how that works out when progression/advancement might be involved.
Also Googling the topic produces resources that show "0.15% of mobile players account for 50% of mobile games revenue" to 2% of all FTP accounting for over 50% profits.
@Desryn, @Iksar
Awesome, thanks. I always wondered why the business model pointed to seeking out this narrow income source and I could not find any documentation- like annual reports showing data-that were able to itemize such a large percentage of income coming from a narrow margin of consumer. I'll check it out. I would also be interested in its sustainability.
Thorndeep said:Manouk said:Thorndeep said:[...]
The point about Youtube and spoilers is well taken. [...] As others have mentioned, we will have to just surround ourselves with like minded players and hopefully there will be enough people who feel the same way to insulate from all the information that will be available. That will be a daunting task but well worth the effort.
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*blorp* My idea! give me credit and accolades and encouragement forever! being: If you stream as a form of storytelling - ooh!- I would say stay in character in discord or twitch, and make sure all your players in group do, too. If you wanted to get fancy, you may need someone to manage camera angles to pivot to faces as another speaks or pivot out to third person (pre-reqs would be everyone would need to know all the emotes), but thats a style choice because then- you'd be Critical Role but instead of on a table top? IN GAME living what only DnD players imagine on the table top. and instead of character pics and stats down below in the margin, maybe RL pics and small details [...]
This is exactly what I am working towards. I've had this vision for years now and have been working on gathering a group of players with the willingness and skills to pull it off.
This is a fantastic idea and could make for great fun, especially if everyone really goes all-in on voice acting their characters.
I would love for Pantheon to support this by offering an in-game stream view that hid the GUI and allowed for each player's character's face to appear in a small window. The players would be able to set emotional states and emotes to add vibrancy. Allow the main camera to jump between various character views and have the whole thing controlled separately by someone who's not playing a character but is logged in as a Director. Livestream roleplay could be the next big trend and the first game to really support it stands to get a lot of exposure.
Add talking emotes to the game and we could make some great videos.