I've been hearing a lot of discussions on add-ons lately. I'm curious to know what this community thinks about them, and their place, if any, in Pantheon.
If you do want to see add-ons in Pantheon, where would you draw the line in what's unacceptable? Would you like for them to be supported in-game or be completely third party?
I'll give my opinion. I will usually get a dps parser (even as a healer) from a low level to see how I can improve myself. I love them despite knowing the toxicity it can bring to some games' communities.
As for other add-ons? I think most can be eliminated with a highly customizable UI. The ones used to help defeat tough content by telling you what's coming I feel take away from that feeling of accomplishment. I could go without those, but understand why they're so popular.
Strongly dislike them all, though some are worse than others.
Dislike them all, because *any* will change the way players play and perceive the game which, to a greater or lesser degree, degrades the shared experience than an MMORPG should be at its best.
Play with someone using a quest tracker and they will rush in straight lines from one objective to another with no thought for the others dragged with them except as helpers. No exploration. No story-telling. No immersion.
Other 'spoiler' type add-ons that give loot tables and abilities of encounters, even showing enemy ability timers and whatnot are even worse for ruining the fun. No point having a challenging game if you constantly 'cheat'. No more exploration and mystery. No more surprise or excitement.
I dislike meters almost as badly, since, as the OP says, they do bring toxicity, along with judgement and elitism. They actually warp the way the game is played, too, with players aiming at raw statistical targets of 'excellence' even though they are often a massive over-simplification of limited use in many situations. They are a barrier to social interaction and diversity of gameplay.
Even if you don't use them personally, it still ruins the game as they become de facto to 'the average' player, who doesn't want to feel left behind by friends who use them and even if you have the strength of character to resist when peers use them, you find yourself left out anyway, as those that use them lose patience with you reading quest text or exploring where there are no known POIs or not using the 'known' tactics for a boss fight or whatever else aspect add-ons simplify and ruin.
I hope VR work out some technical way to severly limit them. I hope they make a EULA that makes them a bannable offense making them harder for streamers or others with influence to popularise and making it clear that it is not cool. I certainly hope they don't straight up allow them like some games do - I seem to remember at one point the add-on screen was one of the first things you saw in WoW, even if you didn't have any?
I know there will always be Wikis and third-party sites, but they tend to get used when players are struggling, not as an integrated, easy-to-install-and-use, default option that add-ons become once popular.
People should at least have a chance to enjoy the game in the challenging and exciting state it is meant to be so they might actually realise it is best that way and resist any add-ons that do become possible to use.
Disposalist, those are excellent points. I didn't even consider stuff like quest trackers affecting the social experience, but I think you're spot on with that example. The only way I see add-ons not being a thing is if VR is very strict with banning for using them. There are games where elitism is less noticeable because calling players out for things like their dps is a bannable offense.
disposalist said:
I know there will always be Wikis and third-party sites, but they tend to get used when players are struggling, not as an integrated, easy-to-install-and-use, default option that add-ons become once popular.
I think this is completely different. I'm all for Wikis, especially if they are player created. As long as it's not integrated into the game itself then it's impossible to stop the sharing of information. I feel this is a separate discussion though, and has way less of an impact on the gameplay compared to add-ons.
Feastycentral said:I think this is completely different. I'm all for Wikis, especially if they are player created. As long as it's not integrated into the game itself then it's impossible to stop the sharing of information. I feel this is a separate discussion though, and has way less of an impact on the gameplay compared to add-ons.
Yeah, as I said, they tend to get much more limited use and only when players struggle. I'm going to be sorely tempted to try and make a Wiki for Pantheon that gives help is cryptic hints that encourages exploration rather than just provides explicit maps, stats and spoilers.
I would hope that would be a popular thing... But maybe not.
For me it's a case-by-case thing, some add-ons are definitely good and won't aversly affect the game. Nowadays it even feels like some developpers rely on modders/ add-on makers to save time and resources and spend them on other aspects of devlopmen,t (which can be both a good or bad thing depending on who you ask). Often modders because they're passionate about game come up with add-ons QoL things that developpers may not have imagined.
I like the approval system Fatshark tried to implement for Vermintide 2. Unfortunately they abandonned it due to lack of time/manpower/resource/whatever. Basically their initial idea which I really liked was that, in the official realm (where you get loot/rewards/achievements) you can only to play with approved add-ons meaning add-ons that were sanctioned by the devloppers Fatshark. In the modded realm where you don't get any rewards/loot/achievements however, anything goes, you can mess with the game any way you like and play with any mods, add-ons.
I'm fine with add-ons but I think an exhaustive vetting process is necessary. If such a system is too hard to implement then I think it's better to hold off on allowing add-ons altogether.
It depends. As long as they only show informations, which are already in the game or they help to remove the clutter from the UI, i have no problem with them. But it goes too far, IMHO, when they start to make and show decisions. Or they estimate things, which are not visible in the game.
But it is also important, that the standard UI does show all informations, the players need to overcome the challenges ingame.
Cheers
VR has said more than once that part of the game structure they have/are building keeps the player's client as 'dumb' as possible and gives as little independent control as possible to the player's client, for the purpose of deterring 3rd party add-ons as well as various types of hacks or cheats.
Their intend to make the Game's UI as movable/adjustable as possible, with almost any part of it able to be toggled off or on as a player wishes. They also seem ok with 'purely cosmetic' UI mods that change its appearance. They are against add-ons that offer functionality that is not already offered by the built-in UI.
I would suggest checking out one or more of these previous threads where many points of view on this subject have already been posted by others.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8772/add-ons-yay-or-nay/view/page/1
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2628/third-party-add-ons/view/post_id/37031
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2326/dps-meter/view/page/1
Jothany said:VR has said more than once that part of the game structure they have/are building keeps the player's client as 'dumb' as possible and gives as little independent control as possible to the player's client, for the purpose of deterring 3rd party add-ons as well as various types of hacks or cheats.
Their intend to make the Game's UI as movable/adjustable as possible, with almost any part of it able to be toggled off or on as a player wishes. They also seem ok with 'purely cosmetic' UI mods that change its appearance. They are against add-ons that offer functionality that is not already offered by the built-in UI.
I would suggest checking out one or more of these previous threads where many points of view on this subject have already been posted by others.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8772/add-ons-yay-or-nay/view/page/1
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2628/third-party-add-ons/view/post_id/37031
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2326/dps-meter/view/page/1
Thank you, mate!
Add ons have been mentioned a lot, please click one of these links to read through, catch up and continue the discussion please.