Yes, they have talked about making all stats matter for all classes.
Abilities will have modifiers based on a variety of stats. One example was str can increase fireball DMG for a wizard. You can check the wiki and see a list of potential spells/abilities and their modifiers.
Granted, everything is subject to change. At one point we were told int = +mana for arcane casters and wis= +crit for arcane casters (and the reverse for divine casters). Since then offensive spell crits have been removed.
We've also been told that attribute numbers will be low relative to the average MMO and more akin to D&D where we will start with single digit stats and aspire to double digit, while all items won't have direct attribute increases, making a +1 to an attribute very meaningful. (Items will have other bonuses to skills and utility, but direct attribute increases will supposedly be rare).
This is a good question. In the past they introduced the idea of 'Modifying Attributes' on abilities. This was shown in the tooltips of the Abilities/Spells so that you could see which Attributes effected your abilities and by how much. In the most recent in game videos where we saw Ability tooltips we no longer see any reference to Modifying Attributes. So we don't know if thay have abandoned this system, or if it's just not shown as they have been updating the UI. Or perhaps they want it to be hidden so that players need to figure it out on their own if and how their attributes will effect individual abilities.
I guess we will need to wait and see when we next have an in game footage stream where abilities are shown. Perhaps this will be a good question to ask them on those streams.
It seems obvious that attributes will affect a character's abilities -or else there would be no point in having atts ingame - and from what VR has told us, they appear to be making that relationship fairly complex so that no ONE att will be the TL:DR answer to what a given Class should spend points on. This is an interesting challenge that I look forward to figuring out.
To get an understanding of what helps what, I plan on crafting some pieces of armor, all for the same slot, with each piece having a bonus to a different att. I'll equip each piece on my character in turn, and check what stats go up. Then I'll go get into combat and log the affect of each of my abilities to see how much it has been improved. When done, I'll swap out the piece for a different att bonus, rinse and repeat. When I've tested the benefits of all the atts, I'll start over on a different character (I'm an altaholic)
while it won't reveal everything, the testing should give me a good idea of which are the most important atts for each character, at least to start. And hopefully some ranking of most to least useful.
Thank you all for your replys,
I am glad varying attributes will have an actual affect on game play. I am currently playing a game where only certain stats have an affect on game play.
On a seperate note I noticed that they suggested Str will affect Fireball damage. This doesn't make sense to me, usually ranged attacks are affected by Dex.
I think it would be more approptiate for a caster to have:
Int: to affect intensity of spell and base damage.
Dex: to affect to hit modifer and possibly crit range
Str: range in which the caster could hurl the fireball.
And similar restrictions/benefits for other classes.
Tahoe said:On a seperate note I noticed that they suggested Str will affect Fireball damage. This doesn't make sense to me, usually ranged attacks are affected by Dex.
I think it would be more approptiate for a caster to have:
Int: to affect intensity of spell and base damage.
Dex: to affect to hit modifer and possibly crit range
Str: range in which the caster could hurl the fireball.
I agree with most of your suggestions, especially strength. For dexterity, I agree with to hit but would substitute cast time decrease for crit range.
Tahoe said:On a seperate note I noticed that they suggested Str will affect Fireball damage. This doesn't make sense to me, usually ranged attacks are affected by Dex.
I could be wrong, it was a long time ago that I heard it. But in the stream where Joppa mentioned strength affecting a Wizard's Fireball, he was explaining how they intend to make most stats be significant for most Classes so that we can't just figure out the 2-3 important stats for our character and then ignore all the others. When he described the Strength helping the Wizard, my sense at the time was that it was more of a made-up example than a confirmation of a particular mechanic.
This is in contrast to where - in that same segment - he gave us what sounded to me like a confirmed plan (at the time) that:
For Offensive Casters: Intellect affects Spell Power and Mana Pool, Wisdom effects Spell Critical chance.
For Healers: Wisdom affects Spell Power and Mana Pool, Intellect effects Spell Critical chance.
Of course things can change and as Philo pointed out above, since getting this info we've been told that offensive spells won't crit. I don't believe that limitation extended to Healing, but that's my opinion. I don't know of VR specifically saying it. I still expect the rest of what I posted above to be the plan, until I hear otherwise.
There is one other correlation I know of that was confirmed a while ago. Of course it could get changed before release as well. In March last year, VR had a Live Gameplay stream in Fortress DeViare. It was a few months before Minus the streamer was hired and became a Dev. He played a Rogue in that Stream. Either in the stream, or right afterward on a Pantheon+ stream, he told us what he had learned from equipping gear with bonuses. Minus told us that:
+1 to DEX gives +3 to Attack Power stat
+1 to AGL gives +2 to Attack Power stat
+1 to STR gives +1 to Attack Power stat
I'm not sure if we know exactly what Attack Power does, but it was unexpected to him that STR was the least useful stat to help it for a DPS.
Jothany said:He played a Rogue in that Stream. Either in the stream, or right afterward on a Pantheon+ stream, he told us what he had learned from equipping gear with bonuses. Minus told us that:
+1 to DEX gives +3 to Attack Power stat
+1 to AGL gives +2 to Attack Power stat
+1 to STR gives +1 to Attack Power statI'm not sure if we know exactly what Attack Power does, but it was unexpected to him that STR was the least useful stat to help it for a DPS.
It makes sense to me that a Rogue's AP scales off attributes in that exact order. I would have to assume that AGI would scale the same for all DPS, but STR and DEX could/should scale according to class... ie.:
a WAR could scale:
+1 STR = +3 AP
+1 AGI = +2 AP
+1 ALL OTHER ATTRIBUTES = +1 AP
And maybe the RNG/MNK could scale:
+1 STR = +2 AP
+1 AGI = +2 AP
+1 DEX = +2 AP
+1 ALL OTHER ATTRIBUTES = +1 AP
Then Maybe an INT caster AP scaling could be something like:
+1 INT = +3 AP
+1 WIS = +2 AP
+1 ALL OTHER ATTRIBUTES = +1 AP
Just my guess based on how they have said that they want all attributes to be valued by all classes but certain classes will prioritize some attributes over others.
(The same can be said for a Tank attribute scaling with Stamina/Constitution should be higher than other classes)
Any of your examples are reasonable, until we know for sure how things will work out.
For me DEX should be the most important stat for a DPS who does martial arts like the Monk, so I can see it scaling higher for his AP than for any other DPS. The whole 'your body is your weapon' trip (even though they are getting hand weapons lol). My very limited experience with martial arts long ago was enough to understand that strength was less important than accuracy of aim and quick reflexes (thru endless training). DEX covers both of those more than any other character stat we have.
I think DEX should scale highly for Ranger's archery AP - or whatever the equivalent secondary stat is. For ordinary melee attacks by Classes other than Monk, STR, DEX & AGI should be roughly equal IMO.
Something I try not to forget is that diminishing returns is something VR has chosen to make use of in other areas and has a good chance of being involved in stat bonuses. So boosting one stat might make a big difference at first, but once a critical level is reached, other stats could become the 'limiting factor' of one's performance. So the scaling factor like what Minus reported won't necessarily stay the same under all circumstances and all levels.
The big picture is that VR wants to make it difficult to figure out what stats are 'best' for our character's overall success. And are try to make most if not all stats of SOME value to all Classes.
So it will be an interesting challenge to start figuring this out.
Edit for poor proofreading.
I'd prefer if we got away from DEX = Damage. It can affect crit and/or accuracy, maybe some additional effect scaling for certain spells/abilities. I don't know if it came about for games with weak itemization/stats using it as an attempt to create a "different" damage character or what.
Realistically archery, throwing, hitting, etc are all strength based in terms of potential damage output. Dexterity serves to help hit the mark.
Iksar said: Realistically archery, throwing, hitting, etc are all strength based in terms of potential damage output. Dexterity serves to help hit the mark.
I'm all for STR being most important for damage with any weapon you hold in your hand.
But for damage at range, "hitting the mark" is more important to your average DPS. A weak hit that lands does some damage, but missing the mark at range does zero damage. It doesn't take many misses to drop your DPS to something less than a '90 pound weakling' hitting with a dull sword.
Jothany said:Iksar said: Realistically archery, throwing, hitting, etc are all strength based in terms of potential damage output. Dexterity serves to help hit the mark.I'm all for STR being most important for damage with any weapon you hold in your hand.
But for damage at range, "hitting the mark" is more important to your average DPS. A weak hit that lands does some damage, but missing the mark at range does zero damage. It doesn't take many misses to drop your DPS to something less than a '90 pound weakling' hitting with a dull sword.
Which comes back around to having many/all attributes being important (to varying degrees and builds) for all classes.
I would suggest mandatory majority limited allocations to main stat and survival stat. That would probably balance easier.
Gaining boosts to mainstat that can't be adjusted and are always higher than other stats. It's always been benefitial to put everything into mainstat and just enough into survival stat, and nothing into circumstantial stats. It's punishing when you build for one zone at the risk of necessary use. "At the risk of necessary use" is the critical part.
Example:
Level up!
You gain +10 to STR (Primary Attribute)
You gain +10 to STA (Survival Attribute)
You gain 5 Secondary Attribute Points
I would appreciate a critique of this suggestion. Something feels off about it.
It's not as clear cut where points should go, at least at release and each expansion. We don't know how many (if any) points players will ever get to allocate themselves be it only at character creation or otherwise.
The general idea people jump to is dump into "primary class stat" but that isn't always the best. If there are soft/hard caps for stats (last we heard that was planned) then it might be easy enough to cap out on the main stat meaning those points "should" go into a secondary or tertiary stat, or perhaps something even more rare to find itemized for.
Znagol said:I would suggest mandatory majority limited allocations to main stat and survival stat. . . Gaining boosts to mainstat that can't be adjusted and are always higher than other stats.
There are too many variables we don't yet know about this. (Pre-alpha testers may know more, but they can't post details due to NDA).
F.Y.I. In the May devstream, Joppa announced ALL characters would start with 1 point in all attributes. Not counting racial bonuses and the starting points you get to spend at creation.
Beyond this, we don't know how many points we will receive for leveling up, nor do we know how many - if any - will be assigned by game. Very unlikely that we won't have a choice over some of them, but we might get to choose all of them.
VR has told us that they are making a concious effort to make many different stats useful to every character. There likely will be one stat that is most helpful generally for a given Class, but could easily be another 1 or 2 that is so important that neglecting them will soon start to diminish that characters effectiveness in their group role. Other stats are likely to have some affect on situational abilities as well.
My biggest critique of your suggestion is that A. seeing what the game puts our stats into may tell us something we might not already know about how to spend our points and B. the more points the game assigns for us, the more it encourages a 'meta' build and discourages creative efforts to build a non-standard character to attempt "emergent gameplay", which has been stated as a good thing by VR.
Jothany said:Znagol said:I would suggest mandatory majority limited allocations to main stat and survival stat. . . Gaining boosts to mainstat that can't be adjusted and are always higher than other stats.
There are too many variables we don't yet know about this. (Pre-alpha testers may know more, but they can't post details due to NDA).
F.Y.I. In the May devstream, Joppa announced ALL characters would start with 1 point in all attributes. Not counting racial bonuses and the starting points you get to spend at creation.
Beyond this, we don't know how many points we will receive for leveling up, nor do we know how many - if any - will be assigned by game. Very unlikely that we won't have a choice over some of them, but we might get to choose all of them.
VR has told us that they are making a concious effort to make many different stats useful to every character. There likely will be one stat that is most helpful generally for a given Class, but could easily be another 1 or 2 that is so important that neglecting them will soon start to diminish that characters effectiveness in their group role. Other stats are likely to have some affect on situational abilities as well.
My biggest critique of your suggestion is that A. seeing what the game puts our stats into may tell us something we might not already know about how to spend our points and B. the more points the game assigns for us, the more it encourages a 'meta' build and discourages creative efforts to build a non-standard character to attempt "emergent gameplay", which has been stated as a good thing by VR.
"A. seeing what the game puts our stats into may tell us something we might not already know about how to spend our points and B. the more points the game assigns for us, the more it encourages a 'meta' build and discourages creative efforts to build a non-standard character to attempt "emergent gameplay", which has been stated as a good thing by VR."
Thank you. That makes sense.
Intelligence should increase to-hit chance almost as much as Dexterity in some weapons. Wisdom should reduce your chance of being hit since not falling for feints, traps, etc is a big part of martial combat. Fencing is often called "physical chess" because of how important smart actions and strategy are, so this suggestion is actually realistic and not an arbitrary effort to add balance.
There should be enough need for all stats that anyone who ignores one will have meaningful consequences.
Tahoe said:Thank you all for your replys,
I am glad varying attributes will have an actual affect on game play. I am currently playing a game where only certain stats have an affect on game play.
On a seperate note I noticed that they suggested Str will affect Fireball damage. This doesn't make sense to me, usually ranged attacks are affected by Dex.
I think it would be more approptiate for a caster to have:
Int: to affect intensity of spell and base damage.
Dex: to affect to hit modifer and possibly crit range
Str: range in which the caster could hurl the fireball.
And similar restrictions/benefits for other classes.
I would replace Str with Endurance. Just because in my mind the fireball is manifested from the elements by the casting of the spell through force of will and ritualized gesticulation (Int), Range would be determined by how long the wizard can concentrate- or endure- to keep that level of concentration up to keep the spell cohesive. Like how a champion chess player can show the same biometrics as a marathon runner: same cardio-vascular stress, same levels of fatigue management, etc.
Counterfleche said:Intelligence should increase to-hit chance almost as much as Dexterity in some weapons. Wisdom should reduce your chance of being hit since not falling for feints, traps, etc is a big part of martial combat. Fencing is often called "physical chess" because of how important smart actions and strategy are, so this suggestion is actually realistic and not an arbitrary effort to add balance.
There should be enough need for all stats that anyone who ignores one will have meaningful consequences.
That leans a bit more toward homogenous building of characters/classes. If certain stats are less universal but still important toward more specific goals/ability sets/"builds" then it creates more unique gearing and horizontal gearing gameplay from one class to the next.
Iksar said:Counterfleche said:Intelligence should increase to-hit chance almost as much as Dexterity in some weapons. Wisdom should reduce your chance of being hit since not falling for feints, traps, etc is a big part of martial combat. Fencing is often called "physical chess" because of how important smart actions and strategy are, so this suggestion is actually realistic and not an arbitrary effort to add balance.
There should be enough need for all stats that anyone who ignores one will have meaningful consequences.
That leans a bit more toward homogenous building of characters/classes. If certain stats are less universal but still important toward more specific goals/ability sets/"builds" then it creates more unique gearing and horizontal gearing gameplay from one class to the next.
That's a valid criticism though the way I envision it is that it's better to specialize in a specific attribute strategy then keep everything too balanced. And multiple strategies are viable. For instance, a Warrior could choose to go heavy on Intelligence as part of a to-hit focused build that also is geared and spec'd for to-hit.
I don't want to see garbage attributes for classes nor a standard philosophy that if you are class X, you only care about attributes Y and Z. When a choice has such a lopsided result, there really isn't any choice at all. This also makes for homogenous builds.
Getting the balance right will take time and lots of data.
To Counterfleche's point, I think I'm good with whatever the devs come up with as long as we don't have homogenous builds (with attributes OR skills). One thing that always bothered me in D&D was how the "power attribute" was Dexterity. You could play any martial class and aside from your minimum required stats for a class, you could dump all of your points into Dexterity and be successful. It added to your initiative, chance to hit, damage (of some weapons) and to your armor class, as well as some of the most highly used skills like stealth...
If I find gear that really boosts my AGI as a warrior, I want to be able to have the "choice" to use it without completely disregarding it because it doesn't have STR as its highest stat or my STR score goes down; or have to automatically hand the item over to a Ranger simply because it has AGI. I want some thought to go into my equipment choices other than looking for one or two attributes. With that said, it is a game ending event for me if I have to carry around and swap out seventy-eight pieces of armor/weapons for different situations... having multiple attributes contribute to the same skills (in varying degrees) may also be a way to mitigate this inevitability that would come with single stat stacking to achieve a specific goal (maximizing crit chance, or block chance, soft cap ceiling hitting etc).