Happy New Year Everyone!
I am curious as to why VR has choose to change the origional armor design concept to create such diversity in their armor types, with making specific light and heavy versions of armor material types i.e. HEAVY / LIGHT Plate, Chain, and Leather. Typically in game design it is best suited to keep the design as simple as possible, whilst adhering to your overall game principals and fundamentals. Creating these limiting varations of armor material types seems to me that it would be more detrimental than benefitial. Below is the breakdown of each armor type, and the associated class matched to the highest tier of armor they can wear.
As you can see, there is little to no overlap in classes and armor type diversity. Cleric, Dire Lord, and Ranger all have one specific type of armor that is the best in slot, while Cloth has three (four once Necromancers are added) in just one category. This creates some needless challenges that can arise in respect to loot drops. I feel that from a game design prosepctive, it would be much easier to revert back to the origional, more simplistic system of armor.
The reason I feel this is a better design option is as follows:
I know that the design was changed previously to the current state, but I do not recall ever seeing a detailed explination as to why this direction was taken. To me, the current system feels less efficient from both a design and player perspective, and reduces the players ability to mix and match armor types and styles making it feel too restrictive.
Please let me know if this was ever addressed in the past. I've been absent for awhile on the forums.
Thanks,
Shagg
You do realize that a class can wear all the armor for that class and any armor below it, yes? So the Warrior/Paladin can wear Heavy Plate, Light Plate, etc all the way down to Cloth. The most limited are the cloth wearers.
So the potential is, that any different times throughout the levels, what might be the best item for a given slot could vary amongst the armor types allowed for your class. If you really think about it, the Warrior and Paladin will have the greatest freedom if all the classes in picking items with the stats they want.
Oh, and you're completely missing all the non-visible slots which will also have an effect. We might just see that the freedom the Warrior/Paladin enjoy in their armor could be the opposite for the non-visible items while the Enchanter/Summoner/Wizard/Necromancer would have the widest range of items from which they can choose. The point here is that we just don't know as nobody has seen even rudimentary itemization of visibile and non-visible slots.
Yes, I am aware that the class can use all tiers below their maximum tier.
I'm just curious what was the decisioning behind this. Lets say this item drops..
Scale Coat of Ta'Sharr (Light Chain) - CLE, PAL, RGR, WAR, DIR
AC 18 Str +3 Con +1 Dex +5 Wis +2
Currently - Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Warrior and Dire Lord can all use this item. It has diverse stats, that would be decent for any of those classes. But, this item would likely be a mid tier item for any class except Rangers because the highest tier armor choice they have is Light Chain. Surely, if this was a raid drop, Cleric, Paladin, Warrior and Dire Lords would have better options, thus why even try for the item? It would likely just go to a Ranger.
Conversely - If you had Dire Lord, Ranger, and Shaman able to use "Chain" armor (no light / heavy) - then, it would make sense that all three classes would be interested in this item, while Paladin, Warrior and Cleric would sill be somewhat indifferent because much better drops are available for Plate armor.
The way I see it, there are pro's and cons to each approach. You are reducing competitiveness over gear, basically like "guiding" the gear towards a specific class. But at the same time, you're reducing the versitility of armor choice for all the classes.
Does that make sense? Maybe I'm just thinking about it wrong, but I just feel like the "heavy / light" characteristic for armor tiers is a needless complication and feels less organic.
Typically a guild or not-too-greedy group will agree that first priority on armour goes to the class for whom it is the heaviest available armour. Thus a finger-wiggler would always get cloth even though a tank can use it and even if the tank is so pathetically geared that a pice of cloth happens to be an upgrade. More realistically - a cleric would get light plate ahead of a warrior.
I disagree with the OP. To me having more choices is less restrictive not more restrictive.
Kangaroo leather is weight for weight the strongest light leather available.
I copied/pasted the above. Looking at things as limitations is not always what it seems. Instead of just saying 'leather', they said 'light leather' and 'heavy leather'. Nothing about that seems limiting even when they are just for one class. We have to look at the totality of what is being done and not just the direct topic. If you're interested, spend some time reading some of Nephele's thoughts on crafting. It will be a lot more involved than I realized with depths to it I hadn't considered. Crafting, Harvesting and the other game systems play a role in them choosing the Armor design they did. For example(not actual things said by VR though) light leather can consist of all the types of leather I listed initially. Those types of light leather could all have different stats or qualities depending on which animal you kill. Add magical creatures and their different stats to the mix and you expand what light and heavy leather means.
In your scenario we just have leather.
Until we learn more about it I wouldn't so concerning. Like I said before, Pantheon is looking to change how we view gameplay and the systems and designs we are used to. There could very well be more variety for a Ranger to choose from or even the same amount of choices you have under your 'leather' type.
When I became a vegetarian/vegan folks used to always say my diet was so limited because I eliminated meat. The actual experience of being a vegatarian/vegan proved the opposite. I became much more knowledgeable of different types of food I would not have explored if I didn't research how to get my daily protein and such. One very clear example is milk. Most of us drink cow's milk. I found out about and tried almond, soy, oat, hemp, cashew and other milks. There's even goat milk that the average person has never tried. Different flavors, weight, textures and such. Something I would not have done under my social conditioning of a mainstream diet.
Not all perceived limitations are actually limitations.
A few threads have been created before in the Classes forum regarding this and it is potentially a bit of a concern. Perhaps not so much at the endgame depending on how obvious certain items are geared towards certain classes.
But certainly while levelling up; and potentially at all levels too due to the goal to make all stats meaningful to all classes in different ways.
The fact is that Paladins and Warriors have a far larger number of armour and weapon choices available to them than the others; Druid, Monk, Enchanter, Wizard, Summoner look to have the fewest armour and weapon options available.
Heavy Plate - Warrior / Paladin
Light Plate - Warrior / Paladin / Cleric / Bard
Heavy Chain - Warrior / Paladin / Cleric / Bard / Dire Lord
Light Chain - Warrior / Paladin / Cleric / Bard / Dire Lord / Ranger
Heavy Leather - Warrior / Paladin / Cleric / Bard / Dire Lord / Ranger / Rogue / Shaman
Light Leather - Warrior / Paladin / Cleric / Bard / Dire Lord / Ranger / Rogue / Shaman / Druid / Monk
Cloth - Warrior / Paladin / Cleric / Bard / Dire Lord / Ranger / Rogue / Shaman / Druid / Monk / Enchanter / Necromancer / Summoner / Wizard
I'll be interested to see the itemisation, drop rates, crafting routes etc that help to make the planned system into one of benefits rather than drawbacks.
Dikenzu said:Kangaroo leather is weight for weight the strongest light leather available.
I copied/pasted the above. Looking at things as limitations is not always what it seems. Instead of just saying 'leather', they said 'light leather' and 'heavy leather'. Nothing about that seems limiting even when they are just for one class. We have to look at the totality of what is being done and not just the direct topic. If you're interested, spend some time reading some of Nephele's thoughts on crafting. It will be a lot more involved than I realized with depths to it I hadn't considered. Crafting, Harvesting and the other game systems play a role in them choosing the Armor design they did. For example(not actual things said by VR though) light leather can consist of all the types of leather I listed initially. Those types of light leather could all have different stats or qualities depending on which animal you kill. Add magical creatures and their different stats to the mix and you expand what light and heavy leather means.
In your scenario we just have leather.
Until we learn more about it I wouldn't so concerning. Like I said before, Pantheon is looking to change how we view gameplay and the systems and designs we are used to. There could very well be more variety for a Ranger to choose from or even the same amount of choices you have under your 'leather' type.
When I became a vegetarian/vegan folks used to always say my diet was so limited because I eliminated meat. The actual experience of being a vegatarian/vegan proved the opposite. I became much more knowledgeable of different types of food I would not have explored if I didn't research how to get my daily protein and such. One very clear example is milk. Most of us drink cow's milk. I found out about and tried almond, soy, oat, hemp, cashew and other milks. There's even goat milk that the average person has never tried. Different flavors, weight, textures and such. Something I would not have done under my social conditioning of a mainstream diet.
Not all perceived limitations are actually limitations.
While I am not sure what your dietary choices have to do with this, I agree with what you said about the multiple types of leather armors. Even just plain old cow's leather has different "hardnesses" of leather depending on various things, even how it's processed.
Rufious said: Honestly, I think it all comes down to this... If it were a raid item gained from a raid, then it would all depend on how your guild distributes raid drops. (i.e. through dkp, or whoever could benefit the most, or however loot is handled by the guild who got the loot drop.) If you are talking about a group kill and drop, then it just depends on the agreement made within that group prior to any loot dropping. In the example item you gave, only 5 of the 12 total classes could use it, so its already better chance of obtaining it than an item thats all/all classes.
Yea, this makes sense to me also. In a guild DKP is whats going to determine everything right.
Just like if im a Dire Lord and a Light Leather Bracer drops ... It may be a super good upgrade for me, so I would want to DKP roll on it but it could be Best In Slot for a Rogue or Shaman. Maybe not BEST in slot for the Dire Lord but could be like 2nd or 3rd best which is nothing to shy at.
I just can't shake the confusion as why their is such direct relation to class and armor types. It just seems like an unnecessary thing.
Either way - I have tremendous faith in VR. Very little about the game to me does not make sense this is just one of the few things.
dorotea said:Typically a guild or not-too-greedy group will agree that first priority on armour goes to the class for whom it is the heaviest available armour. Thus a finger-wiggler would always get cloth even though a tank can use it and even if the tank is so pathetically geared that a pice of cloth happens to be an upgrade. More realistically - a cleric would get light plate ahead of a warrior.
I disagree with the OP. To me having more choices is less restrictive not more restrictive.
Actually we agree then my friend. I stressed that, to me, the current system seems more restrictive, and allows fewer choices. :)
ShaggNasty said:I just can't shake the confusion as why their is such direct relation to class and armor types. It just seems like an unnecessary thing.
Either way - I have tremendous faith in VR. Very little about the game to me does not make sense this is just one of the few things.
This is just a guess on my part, but consider that VR is working hard to make the Crafting part of Panth a cut above many other games' version of it. Dividing the armor up into more categories makes a lot more recipes. With the rich variety they say they are working with, that could lead to a huge choice of bonuses and affects that could be crafted into armor. I'm planning on having a Leather Armor Crafter myself, as I expect to play 3 or 4 characters who will wear it. If you have any trouble getting well equipped in leather, hit me up in game. I'll make ya some sweet gear :)
I imagine the distinction has a bit to do with itemization as well as feeling/aesthetic. If everyone could use anything they'd likely default most often to picking the highest AC/stat items, fewer items overall would be desired among classes as most would chase the same smaller set of items. In a sense you are always going to chase the highest tier available.
As for armor class, I wouldn't be surprised if in terms of mitigation it ended up going: Heavy Plate> Heavy Chain > Light Plate > Light Chain > Heavy Leather > Light Leather > Cloth
The choices VR is going with don't really seem that odd to me when considering stat types.
Heavy Plate - Warrior, Paladin - Pure Tanky and strongman stats.
Light Plate - Cleric, (Bard?) - Healing + other supporty stats. Paladins may use in some slots to get some supporty stats.
Heavy Chain - Dire Lord - These will also be mostly Tanky but different due to DL style of Tanking.
Light Chain - Ranger - Pure physical DPS stats. Dire Lords may use in some slots to get dps stats.
Heavy Leather - Rogue, Shaman - Split physical DPS and Healing stats. Rangers may use in some slots for supporty stats.
Light Leather - Druid, Monk. Split physical DPS and Healing stats. Rogues may use in some slots.
Cloth - Enchatner, Summoner, Wizard, (Necromancer?) - Can be pure spell dps stats.
It's likely none of the other classes than the Spell casters will use much Cloth even in earlier levels. This means that each armor type will usually only have 2-3 classes they will compete with. Cloth will likely have 4 once Necromancers come but it's likely that Enchanters and Necro's being CC/Support archetypes will have slightly different Stat priorities. So we will likely see a broader spread of stats on Cloth. Some that will favor Wizard and Summoner and some that will favor Enchanter and Necromancer.
Some other points to keep in mind:
1) From hints we have seen in the past, it's quite possible that Cleric's will actually contribute dps in a Melee way rather than having Damaging nukes (other than vs Undead of course). We may see them having self-buffs that give them damage proc's on their weapons and maybe even splash healing when they Melee. This means that sharing items with Paladins and sometimes Warriors may actually fit well.
2) Both Rogues and Shamans will have Toxic and/or Poision types of attacks. Them sharing armor types allows them to put stats that boost those dmg types on the Heavy Leather.
3) We don't know for sure if Druids and Monks will have similar dmg types. Although called 'Verdenfire Lance' uses fire in the name, it's actually Nature dmg. And the only Non-Physical dmg type we've seen for Monks so far is Fire based. But being that Monks use Chi which is often considered a Natural or Spiritual force it's possible that Monks may have some Nature type attacks, and Druids could still have some Fire based attacks. So there may be cross-overs we just don't know about yet. Wait and see I guess.
I thought I would respond to a few of ShaggNasty's points.
ShaggNasty said:As you can see, there is little to no overlap in classes and armor type diversity ...
Having a broader range of accessability for a classes armor choices, allows the player more freedom to adjust their stats via their armor choices ...
Creates a more equally distributed balance of competition for armor drops ...I know that the design was changed previously to the current state, but I do not recall ever seeing a detailed explination as to why this direction was taken. To me, the current system feels less efficient from both a design and player perspective, and reduces the players ability to mix and match armor types and styles making it feel too restrictive.
These are all fair points. Although I will rebutt that there is actually a little more diversity than it may appear. Warriors could wear some Light Chain when they will be prioritizing DPS. Rangers and some Dire Lords will likely compete a bit with Rogues and Monks for Dex and Agi based leathers. Druids may diversify into some cloth if some of their dmg might benefit from those types of stats.
But your points are still valid and yes they could have chosen to do things more simply like you suggested.
I will also reiterate @Jothany's point regarding Crafting:
Jothany said:This is just a guess on my part, but consider that VR is working hard to make the Crafting part of Panth a cut above many other games' version of it. Dividing the armor up into more categories makes a lot more recipes. With the rich variety they say they are working with, that could lead to a huge choice of bonuses and affects that could be crafted into armor.
We know from what Nephele has shared with us that Crafting will involve building stats into items based on the componant types used. These componant types will also likely effect the types of armors made. For example we might see Silver being too soft for any of the Plate Armors, but could be blended into Chains or studded into Leathers. So the bonuses that Silver might bring could be limited to those Armor types. The opposite could also occur where a mythical metal type like an Adamantite is just too dense to be made into small links of Chain and so will only be useable in the Plate type armors. Thus the bonuses from this Metal type would be limited to those armor types.
Anyway... interesting discussion.
I think it is more of a pre end-game feature. leveling up can be a bit slower for tanks classes because that's what they do, slow things down, so they atleast can choose from a wider variety of armor.
obviously in end game raids people will want their bis and only their bis, but until then, having more armor types to choose from is probably nice.
It also works well with the weather system, warriors will probably be the most important in the group to be able to handle the climate, and being able to equip a wider variety of things might help with that.