Forums » The Dire Lord

    • 245 posts
    April 4, 2021 1:50 PM PDT
    So the dire lord sounds like our flex is going to be DPS how do u feel if this is true and what do you think the other tanks might be?
    Personally I'd love to be the tank class with a slight higher dose thin the other tanks if that was the role I had to do
    • 1170 posts
    April 4, 2021 3:07 PM PDT

    Taking a quick look at the DL abilities I know about, I see 4 abilities that will do damage but 6 abilities that would fit a Support role. So I'm not convinced that DL would flex into DPS. (As much as I look and compare, I honestly see no real info to suggest that the DL will produce any more DPS than the other 2 Tanks.)

    I also see no reason to assume that the 3 Tanks (or the 3 Healers or 3 Support Classes for that matter) will necessarily flex into different secondary roles. 2 or all 3 Classes in a given role might flex into the same secondary.


    This post was edited by Jothany at April 4, 2021 3:10 PM PDT
    • 1920 posts
    April 4, 2021 5:45 PM PDT

    We will see if that whole "flex" talk becomes a reality.  It was basically an excuse for a rogue being able to CC so well.  I will be surprised if a DL, for example, does damage even close to a wizard or ranger.

    We haven't seen other classes perform secondary roles anywhere close to what the rogue is able to do with CC...and we have seen the DL plenty.

    I wouldn't get my hopes up that groups would generally be accepting of a DL in the dps role.  That doesn't seem likely.  

    • 1170 posts
    April 4, 2021 8:41 PM PDT

    philo said:I will be surprised if a DL, for example, does damage even close to a wizard or ranger.

     

    I wouldn't get my hopes up that groups would generally be accepting of a DL in the dps role.  That doesn't seem likely. 

    I agree. I'll be surprised and a little disappointed if any other Role does damage close to a DPS (that's in a group, solo vs. solo has enough variables that things might be different)

     

    I think any PUG that already has all 4 roles but only 5 members and wants to go play NOW will take almost any char of the right level to fill the group. Other than that, I think that anyone wanting to consistently play DPS role on a Tank had better have enough friends to make their own "League of the Off Spec" guild. Which might actually happen, who knows?

     

    • 245 posts
    April 4, 2021 8:49 PM PDT
    I think more is that's all there focus on they may hit 2/3 ,3/4 of that of the DPS class so not matched but something.
    In the last stream they where doing about 500-600 ish the DPS classes where doing 1k to 2600. But the dire lord was under geared to the other mele dps so that could have made some dps extra. And one stance the dire lord has is a crit stance
    • 200 posts
    April 5, 2021 12:47 AM PDT

    I'd settle for a "burst" kind of dps as long as it wasnt something that could be counted on to be in rotation.

    Though with a limited action bar that may take like half your slots.

    • 245 posts
    April 5, 2021 10:51 PM PDT
    I can see burst DPS also if you consider the crit stance That would fit with the DPS because crits are limited by a chance. And we still don't know the whole skill set that the dialer will get I don't see any group beneficial flex beyond DPS with the dire lord. But the paladin does have heals and some buffs. And the warrior has at least had banners that they drop that bad benefits to the group So out of all the tanks only the dir lord doesn't have anything beneficial beneficial to group. Other than if they had a DPS so I can see them flexing to DPS.
    • 1170 posts
    April 6, 2021 12:38 AM PDT

    Raidil said:

    I don't see any group beneficial flex beyond DPS with the dire lord.

    So out of all the tanks only the dir lord doesn't have anything beneficial beneficial to group.

    Among the known DL abilities so far are:

    Deafening Whisper -- silence an enemy for a short time.

    Dusk -- reducing an enemy's Magic Resist by 2 and destroying 10% of their Mana.

    Baleful Severing -- putting an enemy in a helpless state. Attacks against this enemy will not miss and cannot be dodged, parried, blocked,  counter attacked, or resisted.

    Splatter -- Spreads 1 detrimental effect on an enemy to 4 additional enemies

    Leaden Blood -- slowing an enemy's Movement Speed by 40% for 5 seconds, then rooting them in place for an additional 5 seconds.

    Dire Mark -- mark another player, 25% of their damage will be redirected to you.

     

    • 245 posts
    April 6, 2021 6:48 AM PDT
    Deafening whisper is limited use and dusk so unless your in a place with mostly caster I don't. See this as a flex it's just an extra part of the dire lord being a caster tank as it let's them tank a caster better.
    Baleful severing gose right to the possibility of being the DPS tank flex as it would allow burst DPS during that time
    Splatter is going to be extremely limited use as the need for cc in the game. Most are spells will be hardly used. Or useful.
    Leeaden blood standard snare like eq userull as a tank not a flex skill
    Dire mark could be considered both flex or normal tank but in it's current state almost useless it last for 2 sec on person cast I don't see this really being used that often or at all. If it was a 5 min buff or 10 with it only transfer 2 second worth of damage once the pc been hit I can see it used more. Or if it lasted 5 to 10 min and only transfer to the dire lord 25% worth of the damage to the dire lord's based on bthe dire lord's max hp aka if a wiz had this on him and he took damage and the dire lord's makes hp is 100 thin only 25hp worth of damage would be move to him and it dad's off the wizard so ever time the wiz is hit only 25%of that damage is moved and max that can be moved is based on the dire lord's hp. So currently in the 2sec State not useful but in a raid.
    • 1170 posts
    April 6, 2021 12:26 PM PDT

    I'm sorry. I was foolish to try to have a rational exchange with you. I just won't engage with you any further.

    Good Luck in the Game.

    • 1920 posts
    April 6, 2021 7:19 PM PDT

    @ Joth

    Let's be honest, just because a class can root and silence doesn't put them anywhere near the rogues CC as far as an alternative role.  

    I'll believe in the "flex" roles when they show us any other class that can perform a non-primary role as well as the rogue can CC.  

    A wizard should be an easy one because they obviously can't heal...and likely can't tank even for a short duration so their "flex" role has to be CC the same as the rogue.  Not only do I not expect wizards to be able to CC like the rogue has done but I don't think that's what people playing a wizard want.  

    A bit off topic rambling (not directed at you Joth):
    I don't want to hear silly statements about how support is not CC, CC is the most important part of support in a game like this.  Everyone should understand the holy trinity was always Tank/Heal/CC originally before games became dumbed down and did away with CC being necessary.  Some people with limited gaming experience think the trinity is tank/heal/dps because that's all they know.  The quaternity that has been talked about in regards to Pantheon has always been Tank/heal/damage/CC....not support, cc.  Regardless of whether VR changes the name of the role late in development or not they are still making a game where CC matters.  The fact that they changed the role of the enchanter from CC to support does not fit in with Brad's vision of what the quaternity is/was.  If it did there would be no reason to change the name of the role.


    This post was edited by philo at April 6, 2021 7:38 PM PDT
    • 245 posts
    April 6, 2021 8:32 PM PDT
    Well said philo My point of the post was mainly how are we going to be used in flex because obviously if a rogue is cc like they do or other classes are when you have a second tank you'd expect them to be an off tank. It annoyed the crap out of me and EQ when gear got so well that monks were off taking and there was no reason to have my Shadow Knight unless there was not another tank and they needed to tank maybe I'm one that just wants to see everybody stick straight within their class lines and no flex. And you know the comment of well you would have to wait for someone in that class to log in Well if you have three classes that are able to CC three classes that are able to tank three classes that are able to heal and you have 4 for DPS possibly It shouldn't be that hard to find anyone in those class If not add extra other classes and make it work
    • 245 posts
    April 6, 2021 8:33 PM PDT
    Personally the only role I see for a dire lord for a flex based on skills that I've seen and we have skills are definitely need to be worked on is DPS. With us having dual wield as a primary and and crit as a stance in our healing properties are based on crits and DPS...
    • 1170 posts
    April 6, 2021 8:40 PM PDT

    @Philo

    Actually I agree on everything you posted. I don't think DL will be able to flex to support. I only made the point because I currently count only 4 abilities we know of that are damage-dealing, and I count the 6 abilities listed above as fitting a Support role if they were used when not Tanking. There are obviously more abilities to be revealed, but if I tried to get my DL in a non-Tanking spot in a group right now, I'd be offering Support/DPS.

    You said "Regardless of whether VR changes the name of the role late in development or not they are still making a game where CC matters.  The fact that they changed the role of the enchanter from CC to support... " is where I disagree and it's purely semantics. I don't believe they changed the reality of 'the role' in any way. CC is what the role is all about, from beginning till now. I think you were right the first time, they changed the NAME of the Role. I believe they did it purely for PR reasons, to make the role more appealing to a wider group of potential players. Such is what one does when one has to sell a product to the public in the world we live in.

    Once the game released, I'll be calling that role "My Bard"!

     


    This post was edited by Jothany at April 6, 2021 8:43 PM PDT
    • 245 posts
    April 7, 2021 11:09 AM PDT
    Yeah I don't think the dire lord will be a continual DPS but we'll have an occasional burst flex probably slightly above the other tanks mainly due to most dialers of primarily going to be dual wielding. And with the right makeup of group it'll really increase their DPS if you have a shaman and warrior that have their added skills that would greatly increase the DPS ability of a dire lord. Really The dial lords are selfish class and beyond that they don't normally typically add too much to a group. Can't wait to actually get in there and play and hopefully find some skills that they haven't shown us.
    • 245 posts
    April 19, 2021 8:51 AM PDT
    So just listen to the latest rewind and joppa said we would have the highest burst DPS to help gain argo and sounds like we will be a DPS tank hopefully not the new ranger....
    • 1077 posts
    April 23, 2021 9:59 AM PDT

    I'd bet money that the Paladin will be just as high burst DPS with forced crits and a good 2H.  Just because the rogue can "flex" CC, doesn't mean that the DL will be able to fulfill DPS as a "role".  Every class will be able do damage, but that doesn't mean they will be in the DPS role.  Every class can "Tank" (for a second) but they won't be able to replace one of the 3 classes with defined Tank roles.

    With that said - I hiighly doubt that the rogue will actually "flex" just like the Monk won't flex as a tank (although they will likely be the "tankiest" melee not with the tank role).  What I mean by that is, nobody will invite a rogue to their group "solely" for the purpose of CC (or a monk for the sole purpose of tanking).  In a clutch, having the capabilities to briefly fulfill a role will be beneficial (or while soloing) but in a group situation, a class will be desired for their primary role.  

    Like others have said, if a group already has a tank, healer and CC they will likely be able to invite any other class to fulfill "participation" of DPS... because at the end of the day, every class can deal damage (not every class can tank/heal though).  (This is why I rarely play DPS roles in a game that relies on a "trinity" (or quadrintity).

    • 1920 posts
    April 23, 2021 10:49 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    I'd bet money that the Paladin will be just as high burst DPS with forced crits and a good 2H.  Just because the rogue can "flex" CC, doesn't mean that the DL will be able to fulfill DPS as a "role".  Every class will be able do damage, but that doesn't mean they will be in the DPS role.  Every class can "Tank" (for a second) but they won't be able to replace one of the 3 classes with defined Tank roles.

    You could be right?  It seems like the a better flex for a pally would be healer. 

    We will have to see but it seems logical to me if pally had heal flex and cleric had tank flex.  I'm still unsure if "flex" roles will end up being a viable option across the board, or if it was just an excuse for the OP'd rogue cc.  I'm curious to see how it plays out.

    • 200 posts
    April 23, 2021 11:20 AM PDT

    I could see Pally flexing into DPS vs undead but if it was me I'd flex them into Healing.

    From that point I would also flex the Warrior into a CC/support role with a "command the battle field" idea in mind.

    • 1077 posts
    April 26, 2021 11:38 AM PDT

    I agree @Gintoki88 and Philo.  I know PRotF is not supposed to have classes fill other roles "intentionally" but I "personally" think it would be a terrific idea for classes to either have 2 roles or be very clearly superior at their single role than the classes that have "options".  I don't mean having two "specs" to switch back and forth from, but instead I mean be viable options to perform alternate rolls if they have the gear for it.  Like a Paladin wearing armor that a cleric would wear would have greatly improved heals, a Druid in robes or perhaps a DL wearing gear that a Ranger would normally use...  If they were to use that (very hypothetical) theory, I would like to see something like:

    (Again - hypothetical)

    Class > Alternate

    DL    >   DPS 
    PAL   >   Heals 
    WAR >   No Alternate (But superior Tank)

    DRU > DPS 
    SHM > CC 
    CLR  > N/A (Superior Heals)

    MNK   > Tank
    ROG   > CC
    RNGR > N/A (Superior DPS)

    SMNR > CC
    WIZ   > Superior DPS

    ENC   >  Superior CC
    BRD   >  DPS
    NEC   >  Heals

    • 1170 posts
    April 26, 2021 1:00 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    I agree @Gintoki88 and Philo.  I know PRotF is not supposed to have classes fill other roles "intentionally" but I "personally" think it would be a terrific idea for classes to either have 2 roles or be very clearly superior at their single role than the classes that have "options".  I don't mean having two "specs" to switch back and forth from, but instead I mean be viable options to perform alternate rolls if they have the gear for it.  Like a Paladin wearing armor that a cleric would wear would have greatly improved heals, a Druid in robes or perhaps a DL wearing gear that a Ranger would normally use...  If they were to use that (very hypothetical) theory, I would like to see something like:

    (Again - hypothetical)

    Class > Alternate

    DL    >   DPS 
    PAL   >   Heals 
    WAR >   No Alternate (But superior Tank)

    DRU > DPS 
    SHM > CC 
    CLR  > N/A (Superior Heals)

    MNK   > Tank
    ROG   > CC
    RNGR > N/A (Superior DPS)

    SMNR > CC
    WIZ   > Superior DPS

    ENC   >  Superior CC
    BRD   >  DPS
    NEC   >  Heals

    I just don't see how this would NOT wind up causing half the groups you find anywhere being composed of a Warrior, a Cleric, an Enchanter, a Ranger, a Wizard and... one of the 9 other Classes.

    • 245 posts
    April 26, 2021 3:07 PM PDT
    I think you will see a lot of groups where you'll have the primary main of every role AKA warrior cleric wizard enchanter and then a And then something else about least there would be with flex more More options. And drach I could see a list similar to how you have it there but I would expect that flex would be no more than 5/8 of the main class or so maybe even half of whatever class they flex into that is. Like you're looking at the on the tanks and they're flexing
    A direlord Good DPS but let's say a rogue does 2,000 on a mob an equally equipped dire lord would probably do no more than 12 or 1300 Wear a paladin or warrior would do 700-900. So I wouldn't expect even if the class flexed into another class area they would be nowhere near as good as the primary class.

    A great example of the overkill was the rogue cc In the last videos holding down the amount of mods he did with no issue. I would expect him to be able to do no more than one or two. We're an enchanter would be easily do four or five
    • 1077 posts
    April 26, 2021 4:45 PM PDT

    What @Raidil said, but that won't be for several months - a.k.a once the community has decided which classes are "better" (if not "best") for particular roles.

    @Jothany - we know that VR is trying to make every class viable, but there will be the meta crowd that will "best-in-role" every class if they are as different as VR is making them.  It will be inevitable that "eventually" the ideal groups will be composed of the 3 top classes, and then any other filler classes... with potentially the "LFM, except 'xyz' class because they are terrible after last patch".