Forums » The Bard

The Bard

    • 11 posts
    April 1, 2021 8:31 PM PDT

    Group Role: Support
    Combat Resource: Slickness
    Available Armor: Leather, Lambent
    Available Weapons: Blunt, Dagger, Sword, Lute, Drum, Horn, Flute

     

    edit- plz use "Slickness"

     


    This post was edited by Neal at April 1, 2021 8:44 PM PDT
    • 1108 posts
    April 3, 2021 12:04 PM PDT

    So what is "Slickness" and how might it work?

    • 11 posts
    April 3, 2021 7:44 PM PDT

    -"verbal misrepresentation intended to take advantage of you in some way"

    -"a kind of fluent easy superficiality"

    -"a slippery smoothness" (my personal favorite)

    -"hanky-panky, hocus-pocus, skulduggery, trickery, deception, deceit"

    TBH I don't care what it stands for, I just want it called that...nothing lame, like "derpdurance" or some nonsense.


    This post was edited by Neal at April 3, 2021 7:46 PM PDT
    • 11 posts
    April 3, 2021 8:01 PM PDT

    How it would work?  Full bar when doing nothing, 90% if doing something, 80% (or some other %redux to do other things), still don't really know what dungeons/raids look like!

    I just want a specific bar for things that are mez'd, and not to be worried I can't twist all the songs I need without perfect latency.

    • 11 posts
    April 3, 2021 8:03 PM PDT

    Or really anything else.  Looking forward to the enchanter in the upcoming tests.

     

    Bards should be able to mez at least as many mobs as an enchanter can, at any single time, and be able to do something else to buff the group whilst doing it.


    This post was edited by Neal at April 3, 2021 8:36 PM PDT
    • 1108 posts
    April 4, 2021 8:46 AM PDT

    Neal said:

    -"verbal misrepresentation intended to take advantage of you in some way"

    -"a kind of fluent easy superficiality"

    -"a slippery smoothness" (my personal favorite)

    -"hanky-panky, hocus-pocus, skulduggery, trickery, deception, deceit"

    TBH I don't care what it stands for, I just want it called that...nothing lame, like "derpdurance" or some nonsense.

    I'm sorry, I wasn't very specific in my question. I understand the term 'slick' when applying it to a person in real life. That definition just isn't one that I've ever associated with Bards.  I can see now from your answer the connection you're making between a Bard's CC ability and the idea of manipulating others.

    But the real life meaning of 'slick' includes a fairly negative judgement about the person's character. I've never felt that deception, deceit and skullduggery were essential parts of my Bard's identity as I played one. That seems to me much closer to the lore of a Rogue than a Bard.

    Now that I understand the connection, I have to disagree with you. I don't like the idea of a Bard's resource being defined as 'slickness'.

    • 43 posts
    April 5, 2021 9:28 AM PDT

    Bard's should use the resource Swagger.

    • 612 posts
    April 7, 2021 11:44 PM PDT

    Yes because we all know that Poets are well known for their Swagger.

    • 1108 posts
    April 8, 2021 12:43 AM PDT

    A Bard is a musician. His first instrument is his voice, but as he progresses he learns to use others. So what makes sense to me is that a Bard's resource should be his Rhythm. Not a particular speed of music, but his ability to STAY ON beat.

    When his Rhythm is weak, his music is herky-jerky, wavering and weak. And so are the effects of it.

    When his Rhythm is strong, he nails that beat no matter the din of battle and the screams of dying foes. Keep the Rhythm strong and his music is powerful and reliable.

     

    Well, that's my 2cp.

    • 612 posts
    April 8, 2021 6:25 AM PDT

    Jothany said: "A Bard is a musician."

    This statement is false.

    Some Bards are Musicians.
    Some Musicians are Bards.

    These 2 statements are True.

    It should be noted that while Everquest suggested that a Bard was synonymous with Singer/Musician, this is actually not the case. The word Bard actually means Poet or sometimes Story Teller. William Shakespere is very commonly referred to as 'The Bard' as he is most often considered to be the 'epitome' of the title. Yet I think you would be hard pressed to convince anyone that William Shakespear was in any way a Musician or Singer.

    You don't actually need to be the one who recites the Poem. You can just be the composer of the Poem to be considered a Bard. It's very likely that William Shakespear himself never actually performed his works, but since he was the composer, he is still 'The Bard'.

    Some Bards would use instruments to accompany their Poems and Stories to help them create suspense or emotion, but this does not mean that all people who play Instruments are Bards. Musicians who only play instruments, and do not compose, recite or sing lyrics of any kind are not Bards.

    The opposite is true as well. People can Recite poems that they do not write and still be Bards.

    Singers who compose and/or recite Lyrics can also be considered to be Bards, as they Recite poems in song form. It doesn't matter if they actually play an instrument or not... if they sing or recite lyrics they can be called a Bard even if they themselves didn't write the Lyrics.

    So therefore, some Musicians are Bards and some Bards are Musicians... but not all.

    Some sourcing of Definitions of the word 'Bard' in relation to a person. (There are non-person meanings of the word Bard that are totally seperate.)

    From Dictionary.com:

    1. a person who composed and recited epic or heroic poems, often while playing the harp, lyre, or the like.
    2. one of an ancient Celtic order of composers and reciters of poetry.
    3. any poet.

    From dictionary.cambridge.org

    1. A Poet

    From merriam-webster.com

    1 a : a tribal poet-singer skilled in composing and reciting verses on heroes and their deeds
       b : a composer, singer, or declaimer of epic or heroic verse
    2 : poet


    This post was edited by GoofyWarriorGuy at April 8, 2021 6:30 AM PDT
    • 1108 posts
    April 8, 2021 2:49 PM PDT

    Holy Cow! Goofy, I didn't mean to upset you. Did I say something offensive?

    This thread is about the Bard class in Pantheon, and the Bard's I've played in RPG's have all been musicians or singers.

    Your definition is not wrong, but neither is mine.

     

    I really wasn't trying to start a debate on etymology.  But since it bugs me when someone tells me I'm wrong.... I will point out that the statement "a bard is a musician" is not the same as claiming that "ALL bards are musicians".  My statement IS true, because a bard is more than just one thing.  A bard is a poet, a composer, a singer, a storyteller, a musician, a minstrel, a geneologist, a wanderer - and a class of imaginary character in MMO games. Every bard isn't all of those things, but I didn't claim that.

    Most definitions of Bard you find will include singing and music as part of the core identity of bards. And if you look at the history of the word itself, the meaning of Bard as just a poet has come about in the past few hundred years, since Shakespeare. The word bard goes back much further than him. The further back you go, the more emphasis you will find on singing and playing instruments.

    Shoot, even 2 of the 3 definitions you posted define bard as singing or playing music BEFORE they define him as 'a poet'.

    • 11 posts
    April 8, 2021 7:28 PM PDT

    Oof, this started out as an April Fools joke, and went wildly off-tracks.

     

    Sorry!

     

    edit- I'm still going to, respectfully, request Slickness

    edit edit- There's always been a "carnival-worker-type-sketchiness" to traveling Actors/Musicians/Troupe of any sort...they literally travel around to avoid their reputations, and get them farmers daughters preggers.

    edit edit edit- Apologies to any carnies...I meant "unscrupulous"?


    This post was edited by Neal at April 8, 2021 7:49 PM PDT
    • 1108 posts
    April 8, 2021 7:48 PM PDT

    Neal said: Oof, this started out as an April Fools joke, and went wildly off-tracks.

    There's an old saying that's only halfway a joke:

    "No good deed goes unpunished"

     

    b.t.w., I like the jester avatar.

    • 11 posts
    April 8, 2021 8:16 PM PDT

    I always kind of considered Rogues to be the chaotic-evil archetype, Monks to be the chaotic-good archetype, and Bards to be chaotic-neutral.

     

    edit- played too much EQ, and player personalities may have skewed my view.


    This post was edited by Neal at April 8, 2021 8:17 PM PDT
    • 612 posts
    April 9, 2021 7:13 AM PDT

    Sorry Jothany I didn't mean to come off as angry or anything. That was not my feelings at the time; and my response, while it quoted you, was not specifically trying to target you.

    It was more that I have seen many people consistantly refer to Bards as Musicians as if the two were synonymous and then go on to describe how they feel Bards in Pantheon should thus sing or play instruments, because Bards are Music makers in their minds.

    My post was to point out that while some Bards include some music, this was historically not what the title of Bard was.

    You said: "The further back you go, the more emphasis you will find on singing and playing instruments."

    The origional Bards were Celtic composers of Eulogy and Satire.

    Now Eulogy is most commonly thought of as the Speach given at a Funeral about the dead, but in reality it is any speach meant to Praise somebody else, which of course is usually what people want to do when speaking of the recently departed. Yet those origional Bards were those who told the stories and deeds of their heroes and honoured personages.

    Satire of course is the complete opposite, which is to say it is really just words meant to redicule another, usually by pointing out their vices or lack of intelligence or wits with the use of Irony or Exaggeration, in a humorous manner. Which those Bards used to humble those people who seemed to think of themselves as the heroes and honoured personages when really they didn't deserve those honours.

    Bard was actually a normal profession back then. The purpose of these Bards was actually to remember history, since back then they really didn't keep records since almost nobody could read and write. Bards were the oral historians of the Lower class, while those who performed a similar role for the Elite class were called 'Filidh' (Scottish Gaelic) or 'Fili' (old Irish). Filidh were more closely tied to the Christian Church. In Modern times we don't usually don't use the word Filidh anymore and just refer to all of them as Bards.

    Bards only started to be associated with song and singing later on as most of these kinds of oral histories had a cadence to them that leant very well to singing. They were also much more easy to remember when they ryhmed and were sung. Bards also started to be accompanied (either by others, or themselves) by Lutes or Lyres or drums. It wasn't music in the same way we think of it today, where the Poem is a specific Melody that goes with the music, but rather think more like having background music in a movie that adds to the feelings you get when you hear the dialogue.

    Enter the word 'Minstrel' which started out meaning any Entertainer, but eventually settled on 'Specialist entertainer who sang songs and played musical instruments'. Since a singing and/or playing Bard fits this description, this word also started being used Synonymously with Bard, which is why many people today just assume they are the same thing.

    A Minstrel can be a Bard, and a Bard can be a Minstrel. But these are still two very different concepts and are not the same.

    Since we don't use Oral Poems to maintain our history anymore, Bards today are basically just normal Poets; both those who write and those who recite them. And since most Lyrical music are Poems (remember not all poems need to ryhme), they count too. So those who write or perform lyrical songs can be considered Bards as well.


    To bring it back to MMO's and the Bard class. When EQ created Bards, what they really created were Minstrels and then mislabeled them as Bards, since it is a common mistake to believe that they are the same thing. Perhaps they did have original plans to make Bards more Poet like than simply song singers, but the class as it ended up in the final version fit more as a Minstrel.

    So as we look forward to the Bard class in Pantheon... it is my hope that they make more effort to make them truely Bards rather than simply Minstrels.

    Neal, I apologize that I sidetracked your origional post (yes I am Canadian so I am compelled to apologize *wink*).

    • 1108 posts
    April 9, 2021 12:31 PM PDT

    All is good.

    Thanks for the clarification. Do you possibly have a link that goes into detail about that perspective? I ask because I've done a couple different google searches, and most of them seem to include singing/music as equally fundamental to composition. I'm aware that history is often mis-characterized, even in history books and I'd like to investigate to learn the truth.

    Also, I've never played EQ at all. My first Bard was in D&D back in the paper & pencil days, and I definitely tortured my group with improvised battle songs performed A capella :)


    This post was edited by Jothany at April 9, 2021 12:32 PM PDT
    • 612 posts
    April 9, 2021 8:15 PM PDT

    Well you could of check out: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bard.

    Some specific quotes from this site:

    "In Celtic cultures, a bard was a professional story teller, verse-maker, music composer, oral historian and genealogist, employed by a patron (such as a monarch or noble) to commemorate one or more of the patron's ancestors and to praise the patron's own activities."

    "With the decline of a living bardic tradition in the modern period, the term has loosened to mean a generic minstrel or author (especially a famous one)."

    Hence why people make the mistake of assuming that Bards are just Minstrels, when traditionally this was not the case.

    "In medieval Gaelic and Welsh society, a bard (Scottish and Irish Gaelic) or bardd (Welsh) was a professional poet, employed to compose eulogies for his lord. If the employer failed to pay the proper amount, the bard would then compose a satire (c.f. fili, fáith). In other Indo-European societies, the same function was fulfilled by skalds (Norse), rhapsodes (Greek), minstrels (throughout Europe) and Scops (Germanic, Old English), among others." - of note, the word 'Scoff' (when you deride or mock somebody) is derived from the word Scops as they like Bards often mocked people with their poetry. Skald from Old Norse is where we get the word 'Scold' (when you rebuke somebody) again because of the use of Poetry to rebuke people. The Greek word rhapsōidein means 'to sew songs together' as the Greeks tended to chant or sing much of their poetry.

    This is also why people often mistake Minstrels as Bards because in other societies Minstrels often performed the same job. In fact many people seem to use the term Bard as a catch all word for all of these similar titles from various cultures. Thus it broadens the meaning in many peoples mind because they lump all of these different groups together and just call them Bard.

     

    From the Minstrel page: "Late in the 13th century, the term minstrel began to be used to designate a performer who amused his lord with music and song. Following a series of invasions, wars, conquests, etc., two categories of composers developed. Poets like Chaucer and John Gower appeared in one category, wherein music was not a part. Minstrels, on the other hand, gathered at feasts and festivals in great numbers with harps, fiddles, bagpipes, flutes, flageolets, citterns, and kettledrums. Additionally, minstrels were known for their involvement in political commentary and engaged in propaganda. They often reported news with bias to sway opinion and revised works to encourage action in favor of equality."

    This link between Bards and Minstrels having overlaping job descriptions is why many people link Bards to music more than they traditionally were.

    Travelling Poets, referred to as Itinerant Poets and often called 'Gleeman' was a wandering minstrel, bard, musician, or other poet common in medieval Europe but extinct today. From a lower class than jesters or jongleurs, because he did not have steady work. He instead roamed about to make his living.

    As Bards were sometimes Gleeman and Minstrels and Musicians were also Gleeman again this connection was made and people started to associate Bards with those who travelled around singing and making music for people, even though they were more often not involved with music but rather as Story Tellers and Reciters of Epic verse.

     

    A lot of the Mythology of Bards in Fantasy comes from this part:

    "The early history of the bards can be known only indirectly through mythological stories. The first mention of the bardic profession in Ireland is found in the Book of Invasions, in a story about the Irish colony of Tuatha Dé Danann (Peoples of Goddess Danu), also called Danonians. They became the aos sí (folk of the mound), comparable to Norse alfr and British fairy. During the tenth year of the reign of the last Belgic monarch, the people of the colony of Tuatha Dé Danann, as the Irish called it, invaded and settled in Ireland. They were divided into three tribes—the tribe of Tuatha who were the nobility, the tribe of De who were the priests (those devoted to serving God or De) and the tribe of Danann, who were the bards. This account of the Tuatha Dé Danann must be considered legendary; however the story was an integral part of the oral history of Irish bards themselves."

    This linked Bards to the Fae or Fairy folk which connected them with mystic forces and so forth...

     

    "Irish bards formed a professional hereditary caste of highly trained, learned poets. The bards were steeped in the history and traditions of clan and country, as well as in the technical requirements of a verse technique that was syllabic and used assonance, half rhyme and alliteration, among other conventions."

    "The best-known group of bards in Scotland were the members of the MacMhuirich family, who flourished from the 15th to the 18th centuries ... The family was at first chiefly employed by the Lords of the Isles as poets, lawyers, and physicians ... Members of the family were also recorded as musicians in the early 16th century, and as clergymen possibly as early as the early 15th century ... In Gaelic-speaking areas, a village bard or village poet (Scottish Gaelic: bàrd-baile) is a local poet who composes works in a traditional style relating to that community."

    "A number of bards in Welsh mythology have been preserved in medieval Welsh literature such as the Red Book of Hergest, the White Book of Rhydderch, the Book of Aneirin and the Book of Taliesin."

    These books are some of the oldest histories and prose and poetry in the Welsh language.

    "The (Welsh) Laws of Hywel Dda, originally compiled around 900, identify a bard as a member of a king's household. His duties, when the bodyguard were sharing out booty, included the singing of the sovereignty of Britain—possibly why the genealogies of the British high kings survived into the written historical record."


    "The tradition of regularly assembling bards at an eisteddfod never lapsed, and was strengthened by formation of the Gorsedd by Iolo Morganwg in 1792, establishing Wales as the major Celtic upholder of bardic tradition in the 21st century."

    An Eisteddfod is, according to Martha A. Davies, "a Welsh festival with adjudicated competitions for poets, musicians, and others." The term "Eisteddfod", which is formed from two Welsh morphemes: eistedd, meaning "sit", and fod, meaning "be", means, according to Hywel Teifi Edwards, "sitting-together." Edwards further defines the earliest form of the Eisteddfod as a competitive meeting between Bards and minstrels in which the winner was chosen by a noble or royal patron.

    The Gorsedd is a secret society of modern-day bards. Gorseddau exist to promote literary scholarship and the creation of poetry and music. As part of this, their most visible activity can be seen at Eisteddfodau – Welsh language festivals.

     

    The title of Bard has mostly been attributed to Poets and some Authors. Some of the notible ones:

    'The Bard of Armagh' is Martin Hearty
    'The Bard of Avon,' 'The Immortal Bard' or (in England) simply 'The Bard' is William Shakespeare
    'The Bard of Ayrshire' (or in Scotland, simply 'The Bard') is Robert Burns
    'The Bard of Bengal' is Rabindranath Tagore
    'The Bard of Olney' is William Cowper
    'The Bard of Rydal Mount' is William Wordsworth
    'The Bard of Salford' is John Cooper Clarke
    'The Bard of Twickenham' is Alexander Pope
    Australian bush poets such as Henry Lawson and Banjo Paterson are referred to as 'bush bards'

    Also of note the following Musicians have been titled as Bards:

    Bob Dylan, Jim MacCool and the band Blind Guardian.

     

    "Popular Culture
    From its Romanticist usage, the notion of the bard as a minstrel with qualities of a priest, magician or seer also entered the fantasy genre in the 1960s to 1980s, for example as the 'Bard' class in Dungeons & Dragons, 'Bard' class in Pathfinder RPG—Paizo, Bard by Keith Taylor (1981), Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish by Morgan Llywelyn (1984), and in video games in fantasy settings such as The Bard's Tale (1985).

    As of 2020, an online trend to cover modern songs using medieval style musical instruments and composition, including rewriting the lyrics in a medieval style, is known as bardcore."


    This post was edited by GoofyWarriorGuy at April 9, 2021 8:25 PM PDT
    • 1108 posts
    April 10, 2021 4:24 PM PDT

    Lots of cool stuff to investigate. Thanks Goofy.

    • 810 posts
    May 1, 2021 2:15 PM PDT

    Have been absent for a bit - but having seen GWG mention Eisteddfod in a bard thread (even if originally an April Fool's joke, sorry Neal for wandering even further from your slickness topic), it reminded me of a three year old composition (it wasn't easy using Eisteddfod in a sonnet!) about an odd pair of bards. And yes, these two are musicians, but I agree that traditionally poet/composer is more appropriate:

    Ningannel

    To sing at Eisteddfod her life’s desire
    Her song of loss affecting tears and sighs
    Each note played perfectly upon her lyre
    Before the gathered crowd she won first prize

    Upbeat she braved the trail through Darkling Wood
    Growling he blocked her path all fangs and hair
    Beneath the moon a monster minstrel stood
    Exquisite harp was clawed by crazed bugbear

    All night they crafted beastly rhapsodies
    Releasing savage rhythms so intense
    By dawn exhausted bards now felt at ease
    And with respect they traded instruments 

    Regard this tale as more than just mere sham…
    Do not pass up a chance to Monster Jam!