if it's an integral intentional meaningful part of the game, great.
Not for their own sake. If you want a puzzle, trivia or other game, then play that. It seems like a waste of dev time.
If the devs have done it for fun in their downtime, as I think is often the argument, then *shrug* fine as long as it doesn't detract from the lore/atmosphere, but then, if you take a lot of effort to make it appropriate to lore and theme, then it will be hard to justify the 'it was just downtime fun' argument.
I'm not a fan of fluff. It's often not ignorable - it gets up your nose.
Do we need 'gems' in Pantheon? Did we need it in EQ? Most people have a mobile phone or even a second screen these days, if they are bored of the main game?
If you are talking about dodging 7 falling rocks on the left, 2 in the center, and 5 on the right while climbing a wall, heck no, I can't stand those kind of puzzles.
If you are talking about inserting the correct runes in the correct combination in order to open an ancient door that was created by a long dead outcast gnome tinkerer kind of puzzle, then yes.
If you are talking about beating an NPC in a board game in order for him to give you some item needed for a quest, then yes.
Whatever it is, either a puzzle, trivia or a game, it needs to serve some purpose in terms of lore. It needs to be obvious that it was created by a race/faction/entity to serve some purpose.
I don't want to see these types of things thrown in just for kicks, where they feel completely disconnected from the story.
They also need to be somewhat rare.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Puzzles, trivia and games in MMORPGs, are you for them or against them and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Against, vehemently. Puzzles are only ever a puzzle the first few times you face it, then you've learned it and then on its just a waste of time. Skyshrine, in EQ1 had 2 mazes, a small one from the entrance from Wakening Lands and the larger one up near the top. Each was only ever a puzzle for a very very short period of time. Then you could run it with your eyes closed.
That's the problem with all these things: They only ever remain interesting the first few times, then it's an annoyance best avoided. What are you going to do, create a unique maze every time someone goes through it? Change the puzzle every you go back to it? No, you won't. So just leave them out.
And I think you've asked this question before.
Vandraad said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - Puzzles, trivia and games in MMORPGs, are you for them or against them and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Against, vehemently. Puzzles are only ever a puzzle the first few times you face it, then you've learned it and then on its just a waste of time. Skyshrine, in EQ1 had 2 mazes, a small one from the entrance from Wakening Lands and the larger one up near the top. Each was only ever a puzzle for a very very short period of time. Then you could run it with your eyes closed.
That's the problem with all these things: They only ever remain interesting the first few times, then it's an annoyance best avoided. What are you going to do, create a unique maze every time someone goes through it? Change the puzzle every you go back to it? No, you won't. So just leave them out.
And I think you've asked this question before.
I don't entirely disagree. In-game puzzles like that can be a wasted opportunity and just a chore, ongoing.
A Rubik's Cube is still tough, though, even with a guide book. Some puzzles can still be a challenge if they have a random beginning point and a physical element.
Throw in a timed element and they can be devious.
Even a 'static' maze can still be a challenge, if there's a monster chasing you and a part that spins you around.
How about a maze that gives you perception pings to tell you which route doesn't have magical teleporters that send you into lava? And, yes, those teleporters are placed differently depending on time of day and moon phase and the last of the dragon kings that was killed and the pings vary accordingly.
And, yes, you would be chased by monsters while navigating it.
Keepers would suddenly be more popular! (leaving aside that being a keeper was supposed to be 'optional'. Just an idea hehe)
Puzzles can be as dynamic and complex as desired, surely.
Not everyone *likes* that kind of thing though, for sure.
I think they're a must for a game. they add challenge to the game, some intrigue, and a sense of accomplishment to the player. Players feel good being able to help a new person though them as well. Even simple ones like the entrance to the Circle of Unseen Hands in Qeynos. You go through a false wall, down a winding path then you fall into a pit. Ok, go through a false wall, down a winding path, then through another false wall to arrive safely exactly where you need to go. Can't tell you how many times I fell into that pit until someone showed me the second false wall. It makes for good memories of the first time you did "x".
The longevity of the challenge is moot in my opinion. Most puzzles are attached to content which is attached to lvl ranges. So you're only going to be participating in it for a short time. I've never understood the mindset of things in video games being cumbersome and annoying once you do them a few times. Everything in a video game is like that. Zones are the same, camps are the same, drops are the same. You'd have to RNG everthing in the world to get away from that. Example: First time you run through Dagnor's Cauldron on the way to Unrest is super scary and you most likely die and it takes foreveer running through that canyon. By the 5th or 6th time running it, you've pretty much mapped out the best route. Do you then complain that the run is tedious and inefficient and demand the canyon be taken out? How about move the entrance to Unrest right next to entrance to BB. How about the player stand still and we funnel mobs directly to them. That would be efficient. Hit the Unrest mobs button and they spawn one at a time for your group at the entrance to Dagnor's Cauldron.
Point is, anything you put in the game that gives a moment of accomplishment adds to the richness of the experience of playing a game which is why they are played in the first place. RL XP.
Puzzles. Please no puzzles or challenges involving manual dexterity or ability to finish something within a short time frame. Not unless they are entirely optional. I never could jump well in MMOs and my speed and dexterity have not improved with age. Something optional - for a title, let us say, is fine with me I just won't do it. But a major quest line blocked by a puzzle or timed challenge or jumping test is infuriating. I have left at least two MMOs when they pulled that nonsense and refused to pull back on it despite a plethora of protests on the forums by the vision or dexterity challenged.
Trivia - real world trivia can break immersion though a not too blatant easter egg is not offensive. Lore-based trivia is better though "Name the fourteenth dwarf queen - answer within 30 seconds or this quest line will be permanently blocked - be careful not to misspell the 23 letter unpronouncable name" would be another matter entirely.
Games - I tend to like minigames if they are not mandatory and just give a bit extra. Or just a title. If I have to play a minigame every time I harvest a node of iron I will go batty - well, battier, quite fast.
Puzzles, riddles, trivia, and such are all great...for the first time. I love doing these types of things in real life and I love being able to give my mind a workout outside of books; but after a few times, you start to memorize them and then they lose their appeal. Puzzles, actual jigsaw puzzles, can be repeated because it's almost near impossible to memorize each piece and where it goes. Riddles and mazes can be memorized, especially if they never change. In any game, whether it be an MMO or a solo game such puzzles and riddles, even trivia, can be memorized and then distributed to everyone else and then they become just a hassle to click or run through. Answers will be easily found on the internet somewhere and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. For how much I love such things, I have to admit they are useless when it comes to video games as they never change; and there is no real possible way to have them be completely different for every single person that is on the server. I would have to say that they are a waste of time, effort, and money.
As others have said, if it's part of the lore of the game, makes sense in progression terms and it is character skill based rather than player skill based, then I can live with it. But as disposalist pointed out, once puzzle and trivia have been solved, then the solution will become available online and makes the game somewhat less of a challenge.
Theoretically, you could have a quest to find the offender of a crime (for instance). The quest could randomly select several local NPCs to take part and select one to be the criminal. It could also choose from a selection of crimes. So if you had say 10 NPCs with 6 dastardly deeds then you could have 60 different experiences. However you would need to have different locations for the clues presented to the player and contents of those clues would also need to intelligently change too. So the more complex the who-done-it engine, the better for the players, however, the more development time will be required to get it into a working, non-buggy state. The only way to ensure the longevity of a puzzle is to make it as variable as possible, so it becomes hard to have a solution written down.
At the end of the day, solutions will always be obtainable. A lot of players might attempt the puzzles, but as soon as they get stuck, its off to Wiki they go. The question is always; is the effort to create the puzzle (etc.) worth more than implementing something else that can also enhance the game; is it more valuable to have a puzzle implemented over a new disposition? Is it better to have a trivia game implemented over having a new crafting line of recipies?
No right or wrong answers, just shades of what people enjoy.
The key is choosing the "right"puzzle or game. One where the rules are easily learned, and for which there are multiple positive outcomes.
like:
1. Prisoner's Hats: 3 prisoners. 4 hats, 2 black and 2 white hats. Guard plays a game and says whomever can guess what hat they wear, can go free. Rules are they all face forward, and cannot move, so prisoner at rear can see first two, middle prisoner only the one ahead, and the first one, none. The guard wears one hat, and places the hats on prisoners heads. (prisoners can be players- rooted, immobilized) and they have 30seconds to solve or die. Prisoners cannot see guards hat. Only thing prisoners can say is solution.
2. "not that leverrrrrrr!" 3 gnomes walk into a dwarven bar, bartender asks, do you three want a beer? A: "I don't know", B: I don't know", C: "Yes we do!". C could not answer without knowing what A and B wanted, A could not answer without knowing B & C's stance. I could see this expanded to intersect or split quest lines, "do you all want to sacrifice?" yes, yes, yes, no! - DUDE... now the NPC is going to pull that leverrrrrrr - argh! (lol)
3. one guard tells the truth, the other always lies<- not sure how that can be incorporated, maybe some basic text prompts with a little perception hint?
Or even simple counting sequence related to existing RL things, like a Fibonacci sequence? and isn't it neat how you can use that to quickly sort out kilometers to miles? 5m is roughly 8km, 8m is roughly 13km and so on :) X marks the spot, to get a good measurement you have to dial down the quested tool based on the learned number sequence 5 is 8, 8 is 13! to get the right distance, or something.
I'm not a big fan of tile slider type puzzles, too time consuming
I am mostly against them, if for no other reason than they rarely really add meaningful value to the game. 9/10 times, they either simply end up being an inconvenience to the group, or are something you "have fun figuring out once" then just becomes trivial.
Also, don't forget that the overwhelming majority of the time, people just google "how to solve X".
So, again, unless you feel a particular puzzle really brings legitimate value to the experience, don't waste the resources.
I enjoy all of them, think they add strategy and challenge to the game, especially if you don't cheat and look things up. I thought Vanguard's crafting mini-game where you had X amount of points to spend on various actions and complications while trying to build durability and quality was excellent. I thought Rift and EQ2's "shiny" collection systems were fantastic, especially Rifts and trying to find all the hidden spots things could spawn. I loved Vanguard's diplomacy system, which is essentially a mini-game as well. Love all the dice and card mini-games found in other games like Witcher's Gwent. I remember on some of the SWToR raids at launch they had puzzles as part of the raid zone events, loved Razorgore in BWL in WoW, which was also kind of a puzzle raid event. Trivia I haven't seen a lot of, and it seems easy to cheat and look up answers, but I personally would find it fun.
In my humble opinion, puzzles would be a waste of development time and resources. Puzzles are not puzzling if you can just launch a video to show you how to do it (or even if you don't, after the first time, it's not puzzling anybody no more). It makes them a mild annoyance. A severe one if you have to repeat it several times as part of your normal play session. If they are a one time thing, people are still going to check on Youtube to see how to do it. It's just human nature. And then if you make the puzzles requiring manual dexterity and/or with time limits, you will alienate some of your fanbase who will just give up in frustration of not being able to complete it. Since in 2021 some of the key terms are "for everyone" and "accessibility" I can't see those being viable.
Trivia I'm indifferent about. It definitely can add something to the game, and would ensure people have to pay attention to what's going on if they want to be able to succeed at trivia. Most trivia games have time limits to prevent the user from Googling everything, so that would take care of that.
Games I'm more open to, for sure. I loved Vanguard's crafting mini game, and loved the diplomacy system as well. Lots of different things you can add. Something that would be neat would be an Arena where monsters would fight each other - you get to bet money/currency/items/tokens/whatever and at set times Monsters attack each other. Would need for players to pay attention, just like with trivia, but would add a different kind of minigame that I don't believe another MMORPG has ever done (to my knowledge, I could obviously be wrong). All with their different odds of winning...that would be different for sure.
I like all of these as long as they fit within the game or are entirely optional. A few examples:
Puzzles - Project Gorgon has chests that require you to find the right combination of runes to open. It would be similar to trying to open a lock with a dial of numbers that have to be in the right order. I also like more zone wide puzzles that the puzzle opens up access by either giving you a key or flag. I wouldn't want to have to do it everytime I was in the zone and I prefer puzzles not automatically require 5-6 people at once in case I want to go back and complete the puzzle as a higher level later.
Trivia - I like the idea of fitting trivia in with the Perception system and possibly requiring you to know certain trivia/facts to access different quests. This seems to fit nicely with what you have described the perception system already and could be implemented with that in mind. With as complex of a system as you've described, you may be able to avoid simple walkthrough videos that detail what the NPC is requesting to answer the trivia. My thoughts would be a question or riddle that would require a perception ping or the character to examine certain items to progress through to the next trivia item.
Games - I think games are enjoyable in small doses. I like the idea of incorporating games into seasonal/special events or holidays where the game makes sesnse and fits with the lore of Terminus. I don't really want a "whack a mole" type game to pop up as part of a boss encounter. I also like the idea of Games being used in a casino/arena type environment and could possibly be used as a money sink (just like the real thing!). Add in a few cosmetic rewards, quests, titles, consumables, major jackpots, etc and it could be a fun thing that could be enjoyed by multiple levels.
So long as they aren't jumping puzzles that turn it into a platformer, I don't mind puzzles assuming they make sense in context and aren't simply static obstacles that become stale and annoying after solving. Unlike the internet culture of the early 00s, every solution to every possible puzzle will be only a quick duckduck away to all but the first few players to encounter them. That allows players who want the challenge of solving on their own to do so while giving those who hate puzzles the ability to just look up the steps on some mediawiki somewhere.
Yes to all 3. I want VR and their world builders to fully flesh-out this world.
I want your world to define how I play the game. VR's world, physics, Lore, puzzles, etc....
in my opinion the nay sayers are only trying to protect then prefered play style, worried that VR will implement something they don't like.
disposalist said:Vandraad said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - Puzzles, trivia and games in MMORPGs, are you for them or against them and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Against, vehemently. Puzzles are only ever a puzzle the first few times you face it, then you've learned it and then on its just a waste of time. Skyshrine, in EQ1 had 2 mazes, a small one from the entrance from Wakening Lands and the larger one up near the top. Each was only ever a puzzle for a very very short period of time. Then you could run it with your eyes closed.
That's the problem with all these things: They only ever remain interesting the first few times, then it's an annoyance best avoided. What are you going to do, create a unique maze every time someone goes through it? Change the puzzle every you go back to it? No, you won't. So just leave them out.
And I think you've asked this question before.
I don't entirely disagree. In-game puzzles like that can be a wasted opportunity and just a chore, ongoing.
A Rubik's Cube is still tough, though, even with a guide book. Some puzzles can still be a challenge if they have a random beginning point and a physical element.
Throw in a timed element and they can be devious.
Even a 'static' maze can still be a challenge, if there's a monster chasing you and a part that spins you around.
How about a maze that gives you perception pings to tell you which route doesn't have magical teleporters that send you into lava? And, yes, those teleporters are placed differently depending on time of day and moon phase and the last of the dragon kings that was killed and the pings vary accordingly.
And, yes, you would be chased by monsters while navigating it.
Disentanglement puzzles offer a similar amount of difficulty as well, especially when distracted by one's surroundings which should be easily accomplished in an MMO with NPCs, but even more so in Pantheon with atmospheres. Try navigating this labyrinth filled with undead—now try doing the same amid unnatural darkness, guided only by lightning strikes which could kill you if low health. Being disoriented, those trying to solve the puzzle wouldn't know where all of the pieces were at all times, so it would rarely ever be put together the same exact way again. The order might be the same or similar, but the time required and number of interruptions would vary based on group cohesion and human error. The less complex the puzzle, the more interference from the environment and its inhabitants. The more isolated and safe a player feels, the easier it will be to concentrate and solve the puzzle, eventually leading to it becoming predictable and tedious. IIRC there was mention in one of the dev streams of a puzzle requiring a certain number of players position themselves on a massive pressure pad/platform of sorts; even better if it accounted for the weight of one's character, giving the large races (who are something of a liability in cramped dungeons) an indirect racial bonus.
Though both can be frustrating when lag is an issue, well-placed arc axe traps and swaying bridges add uncertainty and tension to dungeon crawls. Lay down an icy surface and suddenly it becomes more humorous than frustrating. The reward comes from reaching the intended camp in zone and not being considered the weakest link of your group, with the risk always being there whenever you revisit the dungeon. Maybe the previous xp session everyone ribbed the cleric because they fell (were knocked/pushed) into the pit of snakes or murky pool of acid. And then, this time around, every other player falls in except the cleric. Some of the best puzzles could in fact be zone layouts with moving pieces and a few pieces missing by design, which the players would have to fill with crafted, looted, or summoned objects, or the corpses of NPCs. It's exciting to see what all is possible now compared to 20 some odd years ago.
finsternis said:So long as they aren't jumping puzzles that turn it into a platformer, I don't mind puzzles assuming they make sense in context and aren't simply static obstacles that become stale and annoying after solving.
I am in the exact opposite boat here man. Having a quest item at the top of some hard to reach climb would be awesome. I agree jumping puzzles for daily / weekly events are not great but that is the repetition effect I mentioned before. If you need to do the same puzzle every hour, day or week or whatever it gets real old. If you simply can just walk everywhere what is the point of the climbing skill? I hope they give us some nice challenges with it.
The idea of climbing up or down some cliff side to reach a near impossible to outcrop only to find a passage leading to a cave or shack sounds like tons of fun. Find some obscure lore, a quest item, the bones of the deceased adventurer from 100 years ago would be fun to find. Make it require climbing gear and high skill check as well. I hope there is at least one really out of the way place like this in every zone to find for various reasons.
What I fear is they will say oh that hard to reach place? Just come back at lvl 50 and climb up it like you are spiderman because just how defense turns low level swords into feather dusters, climbing skill turns low level cliff faces into a walk in the park.
1) I would like "trivia" questions as part of some quests (to add even more text flavour and a chance for even better rewards that you'd normally get by simple clicking through text) and some events with dev.
2) Puzzles as a way of making exploration more entertaining - definitely - some requiring specific stats, some correct action, some finding hidden button - DDO had this so right
3) Games? I rarely play in-game games, but there were exceptions: Gwint from Witcher 3 or Pazaak from KOTOR - I wouldn't mind have something like them in taverns - hardly a prioryty though - could come in handy in later expansions, when players starts getting momentary "overplayed" status effect.