Forums » The Wizard

Wizard damage concern

    • 6 posts
    March 5, 2021 2:51 PM PST

    I watched the latest stream with Minus, Bazgrim, Nathan Napalm, Therek and Roenick. Looks great and loved seeing some new stuff and can't wait to get into Alpha! I know things are still in development and there's a lot of class tuning that still needs to be done but I do have a question/concern. As a person who always plays a wizard I was naturally watching to see the damage a wizard would do. After all, that's what wizards do .... damage. Maybe a little support with roots, snares or an interrupt but our role is damage. That's what we do. We're squishy and go down quick but we do DAMAGE, lol! I watched Minus who was playing the rogue do an awesome job of CC. My concern however was he was also way outdamaging Therek on most of the mobs when he wasn't CC'ing. Like, not by a little, by a LOT.

    Was there a level difference between Therek and Minus that would account for this? Not trying to be offensive, but did Therek need to change his rotation or spells, not have the right spells or mastery? I'm concerned that wizards are going to be under-powered and not wanted in groups or relegated to being port whores like what I've seen in other MMO's. If rogues can stealth, pull, CC plus out damage wizards why bring a wizard along?

    Are there going to be other things wizards bring to the table to make them wanted/needed and not just ... Well, we've got everything covered and have an open spot I guess we can take the wizard along.

    Thanks for listening, and please realize this isn't meant to be a rant or anything negative. Maybe I missed something and am seeing things that aren't there and if so please let me know!

    -E

    • 2010 posts
    March 5, 2021 5:19 PM PST

    To answer your questions it isn't balanced yet, but also Minus had played a rogue before and I believe Therek hadn't played a wizard so that might have had something to do with it.

    I understand where you are coming from based on the stream.  One thing I wonder is if spell weaving is still planned?  That should make a significant difference in a wizards damage if so. 

    They were only lvl 20ish right?  I usually see wizard type classes have a large damage increase later in their progression. 

     

    • 1452 posts
    March 5, 2021 6:43 PM PST

    Experience playing a class previously could make a big difference in how well one spends a pile of Mastery Points as well.

    I agree about the starting damage, it has a sharp curve from minimal to impressive.

    • 1714 posts
    March 6, 2021 4:04 AM PST

    It isn't balanced yet for sure, as it is still pre-alpha.  But also, Minus took the time at the beginning to craft some nice weapons for himself.  It may be possible that had the wizard had some nice gear that helped his intelligence or what-not, he may have done more damage than he did.

    • 25 posts
    March 6, 2021 6:09 AM PST

    I also will main a wizard and I was also concered.  I cannot wait to see the video therek should be releaseing from the wizard perspective.  Hopefully he can shed more light on on the class.  I did notice on the recap video, therek said first part of the video he was very very conservative on the wizard because he was scared of being out of mana for next fight, and did not fully understand his powers and how to use them.  As time progressed he got more familiar with his mana, spells, etc and was hitting very hard at the end of the dungeon.  

    • 6 posts
    March 6, 2021 6:32 AM PST

    I'm looking forward to Therek's video stream as well. I also did a little research and it looks like he usually plays a ranger so that had an impact I'm sure. I know it's tough to get class balance right and there's a lot of things to consider and someone is always going to complain. It sounds like Minus also did a lot of his homework beforehand.

    Just remember Dev's ... no one should outdamage a wizard at full burn, lol!!!

    • 399 posts
    March 7, 2021 7:32 AM PST

    I'll try to alleviate some of the concerns expressed here, with my full Wizard breakdown video going into this more in depth when it is finished (soon*). 

    My overall impression of the Wizard was that it is very powerful, with the ability to fully control your damage output. What I have seen in other feedback is some of the same things said here - the Wizard should out DPS the rogue in every battle. If it eases your concerns I can tell you, that had I chosen to do so, I could have easily outdamaged him. The Fire Focus spells in particular, had the potential to deal upwards of 2300 damage in a battle, which is higher than the Rogue ever achieved my by recollection. Had I spent all my mana in in every battle, that is what you would have seen. 

    But its imortant to consider the context here. We had to move at a brisk pace given we were on a timeline and wanted to get to Hyoket (and beyond). As such, I needed to have mana available to provide consistent damage rather than burst. Had I tried to obliterate every mob we saw, this would have resulted in me being completely out of mana every other battle. So my approach was to initially get a feel for the mana pacing and regen capabilities for the first little while, and once I had a feel for it, I could judge when to go full out and when to hold back. You will see as the stream progresses that the after battle reports reflect this approach. 

    Another thing to consider is that I wanted to try and utilize all the spells available to me to try and show them being used. Of course, this is going to result in some lesser damage output as the Cold and Arcane focus spells offer more utility (slowing movement speed, interrupt, silence) and less damage. You can see in the stream instances where I was focused on interrupting casters, and casting mana regen spell consecutively to get back to full mana near the end of a fight in anticipation of the next battle to come. Again, I had control over my damage output. There is a strategy to playing the Wizard, in my opinion, that goes beyond just doing the most damage in every battle. 

    Having said all that, there is no doubt that I didn't play the Wizard as optimally as possible. In the 3 hours we were given, I did the best I could to learn how the spells functioned and make choices about how best to utilize them. Learning a class fully should take more than 3 hours and I certainly feel like the Wizard is a class that requires this. How to build focus efficiently, when to sacrifice focus for spell variety, and lots of other intricacies you will see when I show the spells and mastery upgrades in the forthcoming video. I really wanted to do justice to showing the Wizard class as much as I could, so I hope you enjoy what you see. 

    And yes, while I am a Ranger at heart, I still got to play a DPS class so I was happy! Cheers :)

     

    • 6 posts
    March 7, 2021 11:30 AM PST

    Thanks for the clarification, Therek! I meant no disrespect to you or the game and am really looking forward to your stream from the Wizard perspective. I'm happy to hear that you were holding back and it makes sense that you would do so. It was difficult to tell what everyone is doing in a stream like that and the only feedback you get are the damage/healing meters which don't tell the whole story.

    • 1452 posts
    March 7, 2021 2:51 PM PST

    Thanks Therek. A very nuanced examination of the Wizard, and it makes me want to play one even more!

    (I'll also be playing a Ranger - can't wait to see your take on it)

    • 399 posts
    March 7, 2021 4:50 PM PST

    Ennluris said:

    Thanks for the clarification, Therek! I meant no disrespect to you or the game and am really looking forward to your stream from the Wizard perspective. I'm happy to hear that you were holding back and it makes sense that you would do so. It was difficult to tell what everyone is doing in a stream like that and the only feedback you get are the damage/healing meters which don't tell the whole story.

     

    None taken! I couldn't agree more. Meters don't tell the whole story, well said. 

    • 325 posts
    March 8, 2021 9:56 AM PST

    Wow its almost like dps meters lead to bad assumptions...

    • 6 posts
    March 8, 2021 2:13 PM PST

    I think we agreed on that! DPS meters can be useful but I wish there was a way to show utility also .... stuns, mezzes, stuff like that. As I said before, they don't tell the whole story and I think in many cases they are not used for good reasons. I actually hate when in a group and after every  fight someone lists the damage meter. I'm hoping that once the game goes live that it isn't automatically listed. I'll use them for myself to try and better my rotation and damage output but in a group as long as the mobs are going down and you're not wiping who cares. If someone appears to be underperforming help them get better don't kick them out of the group!

    I think that's probably a discussion for another post, though .... DPS meters, good or bad and why  do you use them!

    • 333 posts
    March 8, 2021 4:55 PM PST
    Ps the highest the wiz damage on the stream got to was 2300 the rogue got to 2800. I think there dose need to be some adjustments made possible a little fasters mama regen for wiz as well as battle medding. And probably a 15% increase in damage a spell dose would probably do it.
    • 2010 posts
    March 9, 2021 3:28 PM PST

    Raidil said: Ps the highest the wiz damage on the stream got to was 2300 the rogue got to 2800. I think there dose need to be some adjustments made possible a little fasters mama regen for wiz as well as battle medding. And probably a 15% increase in damage a spell dose would probably do it.

    Can you link where the rogue did 2800 for comparison please?

    Hopefully that 2300 from the wizard wasn't full burn to oom?

    • 6 posts
    March 12, 2021 6:25 AM PST

    After watching the streams from Therek and Minus I do feel better, thanks guys! I saw that Minus made some good daggers and also spent a bunmch of mastery points which helped greatly I'm sure. I'm looking forward to seeing more of the wizard with better gear and more mastery before I call for a rogue-nerf, lol!! Nahh, nerf the rogues!

    • 333 posts
    March 15, 2021 10:26 PM PDT
    Okay so it's a little off It wasn't 2,800 It was pretty much 2,700
    @1:12:46 he dose 2160
    @1:25:12 he dose 2029
    @1:17:29 he dose 2682
    Essentially if you want a DPS and not do anything else he was way out damaging the wizard even when the wizard did full burn and did 2,300. I'm pretty sure he probably could have even hit higher numbers.
    • 333 posts
    March 15, 2021 10:26 PM PDT
    And that's on Roenick stream
    • 333 posts
    March 15, 2021 10:27 PM PDT
    Also if you watch the wizard stream you can see that he maxed all this mastery points in his spells so realistically he should have been doing massive damage because of that. Granted stats are supposed to help damage as well but he did have the most drops throughout the whole entire stream and by the end of it he had the top armor So really that should have added more damage to for the wizard.
    • 333 posts
    March 15, 2021 10:28 PM PDT
    Also if you watch the wizard stream you can see that he maxed all this mastery points in his spells so realistically he should have been doing massive damage because of that. Granted stats are supposed to help damage as well but he did have the most drops throughout the whole entire stream and by the end of it he had the top armor So really that should have added more damage to for the wizard.
    • 333 posts
    March 15, 2021 10:30 PM PDT
    Just FYI I plan on playing a dire lord I'm just here rooting on you guys I really hope the wizards become something admired for DPS
    • 14 posts
    August 30, 2021 12:16 AM PDT

    After recently watching that video I had the exact same concerns. I just wasn't seeing much damage output on the wizard. I think my main concern though was that both rogue and monk add very good utility to groups while also having that high dps. Right now on EQ wizard suffers because they add nothing to group other than dmg and melee classes dont run out of mana. So people always take melee or classes like enchanter which add dmg through charm but also add lots of utility with buffs/mez. I wasn't seeing any utility added by the wizard or any burst damage. They had interupts but it seems most classes are going to have some form of interupt. They will get root but thats not near as good as mez/sleep. I just didn't see any reason you would want a wizard in your group over other classes.

    • 1135 posts
    October 7, 2021 8:46 PM PDT

    I hate DPS meters for this exact reason.  There are a few factors not being taken into consideration.  Just to point out a few:
    Wizards can deal damage from a relatively safe distance, not requiring being positioned behind a target (that may not always be susceptible to backstab).
    Wizards can hit multiple targets at once
    Wizards' spells in most MMOs ramp hard end game

    I hope that VR has their own DPS meter that includes a way to parse out spells/skills used and "rate" them with a "contribution" value that counts toward healing/damage (like dispeling a DoT that would've done 500 damage would count as a 500 heal, or interrupting an enemy heal would count as damage).  Otherwise, we will just have people posting relatively arbitrary damage parsers (that wont accurately portray the player's contribution) and people will start playing to please the parser posters instead of enjoying the game.

    • 1452 posts
    October 9, 2021 3:58 PM PDT

    Darch said: playing to please the parser posters

    Boy howdy that's a mouthful you said there!

    :D

    • 3276 posts
    October 23, 2021 10:41 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    I hate DPS meters for this exact reason.  There are a few factors not being taken into consideration.  Just to point out a few:
    Wizards can deal damage from a relatively safe distance, not requiring being positioned behind a target (that may not always be susceptible to backstab).
    Wizards can hit multiple targets at once
    Wizards' spells in most MMOs ramp hard end game

    I hope that VR has their own DPS meter that includes a way to parse out spells/skills used and "rate" them with a "contribution" value that counts toward healing/damage (like dispeling a DoT that would've done 500 damage would count as a 500 heal, or interrupting an enemy heal would count as damage).  Otherwise, we will just have people posting relatively arbitrary damage parsers (that wont accurately portray the player's contribution) and people will start playing to please the parser posters instead of enjoying the game.

      Well said..I am a long time wizard gamer.   Rogues outdamaging wizards happened back in EQ too..to the point the groups would not find wizards useful other than their teleports etc.   I learned how to kite and solo in those days due to this reason.   Damage meters are all about damage meters..and ego,  not enjoying the game itself.  Work as a team...if the fight is all about you ..and your numbers,  then I don't want to group with you lol. Hopefully VR limits this sort of distraction...I would rather enjoy the game and my team then spend time competing with some doorknob and his damage meter.

     

    Cana