Forums » The Monk

DPS Monk vs Rogue

    • 129 posts
    February 25, 2021 5:12 AM PST

    This isn't a post to anger Rogue mains, but I've been watching some of the rogue streams lately and it seems rogues will have far more utility in Pantheon vs say a rogue in EQ1 or 2.  

    This added utility will make them far more attractive to a group versus a Monk, who also appears to be heading towards being a DPS class who can also pull, and "maybe" still off tank, though that may not be certain. Indeed, until we get to play-test the Monk a lot of this is admittedly pure speculation.

    I think I'd like to see a couple of things improve for the Monk class to make them a viable choice versus a Rogue in a group that needs DPS, considering the Rogue has so much more added utility.

    First I'd like to see the Monk class bring some sort of additional buff to the group, something that really didn't happen in EQ until late in the monk's career, and even then was more suited to just raids.  I'm not entirely sure on what that buff would be, but I think it should be a passive Chi feature.  Maybe much more dodge/parry for fellow melee-ers in the group,  and a reduction in mana costs for casters due to the monk's tranquility?  Or maybe a group Feign Death, which sounds good but would largely never be used unless a certain group wipe. The Enchanter can ADD/regen mana, maybe the Monk could reduce its usage cost?  Whatever is selected I do think a benefit should be given to the entire group, melee and casters both.

    Second, and this may be controversial, I think the Monk's DPS should noticeably exceed that of a Rogue's, a change from EQ's late-life, now taken as gospel, huge mistake, and in fact Monks should be the top melee DPS in Pantheon.  The Rogue can backstab for sure, and that should be a deadly attack...but the Monk is a highly trained martial artist who dedicates himself to combat...not to picking locks, setting traps, climbing via ropes, tossing cantrips...etc.  His focus is 100% upon combat, and has specialized attacks "his body IS the weapon" etc. etc.  We have Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, IP Man, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Steven Seagal, Donnie Yen, Jean-Claude Van Dam, Iron Fist, Batman, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Superman, the Hulk,the Bronze Tiger, the Black Panther and even Captain America (remember in EQ the monk-usable Shield of Rainbow Hues?) and just a slew of others with huge "no weapon but superb hand to hand combat abilities", with agility/dexterity/dodge/parry/block skills, and a very logical case could be made that ALL of these names could be in the Monk class in Pantheon.

    Its worth recalling that originally,and for the first six expansions, the Monk in EQ WAS the top melee DPS class.  SoE/Daybreak even has a post in their forums about this...search on Megathread: Top EQ DPS per EQ Expansion to see I'm being honest here.

    Where are the famous rogues known for damage?  Reynard the Fox, Robin Goodfellow, and Ali Baba?  Puh-leeze.  And they do this high damage with the puniest weapon in the game, the dagger.   I guess the dagger would be best choice if you otherwise had only a rolled up pair of old socks, or an avocado.  :)

    I believe with a passive group buff, more DPS than any other melee-er, and the ability to pull the Monk would equal the benefit that Rogues will bring, making it a level playing field for group selection.

    Its high time to put the Rogue's damage output to a place they are more comfortable...in the back. (Tongue firmly planted in cheek)

    What do you think?

       

     

     (editted to add some things from the second post I could not post for some reason.)


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at February 27, 2021 5:20 AM PST
    • 2952 posts
    February 25, 2021 10:51 AM PST

    I think it is way too early to know, but certainly monk should not do more DPS than rogue. That isn't how this game is being balanced at all. All classes of the same role should have parity in performance of that role. No best in role classes. 

     

    Rogue bring some utility sure, but that doesn't mean monk don't/won't also bring valuable tools to a group. Monk already can lower the mana usage of the healers in the group based on old abilities found on the wiki by use of their own self healing, especially if they use some of those abilities while short term tanking the mob the group is fighting before using feign death so aggro goes back to the tank and monk goes back to full DPS. 

     

    Let's wait and see all of what the monk has in store before getting the pitchforks. 

    • 129 posts
    February 25, 2021 2:48 PM PST

    I agree to an extent Iksar.  But the monk in your scenario is really only helping the healer, and doing next to nothing for the other four members of the group.

    I'm requesting/hoping/begging for something we have innately that helps the entire group.

     


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at February 26, 2021 2:43 PM PST
    • 129 posts
    February 25, 2021 2:50 PM PST

    .

    I'm writing this AFTER Jothany's excellent post directly below this one, due my posting issues.  Jothany is 100% correct that we don't know yet what VR has in store for the Monk class.   But it doesn't hurt to show passion for the class in this section of the forum, at least I hope it doesn't hurt.

    I'm passionate about this because it seems LOTS of classes will be pullers in Pantheon, which while honestly a VERY good thing, may eliminate a "monk role" as predominate puller.   Thats ok because I hate pulling for raids :)

    The "off tank" role is gone from the new website, but as with several things in the revamp, that doesn't mean that role is gone either. 

    So I'm making a case that the Monk's primary role should be DPS, and due to focus, lack of distractions (other utilities) and core nature of the training/monastary backstory on Monks, with Sifus, Sensei's and GrandMasters, they should be at top of DPS output. 

     


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at February 26, 2021 2:57 PM PST
    • 1334 posts
    February 25, 2021 3:35 PM PST

    Nagasakee said: This added utility will make [Rogues] far more attractive to a group versus a Monk,

    I agree with your assesment, though not necessarily with the solution.

    I think that for whatever reason, the Monk's arsenal has been much less developed (or less revealed to us) than the Rogue's. And at this point I agree that the Monk isn't nearly as attractive to a full group as Rogue. If that imbalance is intentional, then I would agree that Monk should do more DPS than Rogue.

    Part of my assesment is because, with the 4th group role of CC in Pantheon, I don't see off-tank as nearly as important as it would be without a dedicated CC role.

    A DPS & off-tank class might shine in high end or raid situations as much better than having an actual 2nd Tank (whose DPS would not be near as good when his tanking wasn't needed), but since endgame is stated by VR as not as much of a focus in Pantheon as in other games, that's questionable as well.

    I also don't see self healing as a hugely useful group role either. Though on the other hand, a DPS with self healing might be a standout solo class, and with Monk's tanking skills might be highly useful as a '2-3 person group' class. Which would be good, but still wouldn't address the issue of not being sought out for full groups, which is obviously intended as a major part of gameplay in Pantheon.

     

    I agree that it's currently rather early to make a conclusion about this situation. There may be way more Monk abilities revealed before release than Rogue abilities, which could change the balance in different way. It's still a pertinent question to raise.

    • 98 posts
    February 26, 2021 1:31 AM PST

    Nagasakee said:

    Second, and this may be controversial, I think the Monk's DPS should noticeably exceed that of a Rogue's, a change from EQ's mistake, and in fact they should be the top melee DPS in Pantheon.  

     

    Yayyy, popcorn time :-) I am neutral lol

    • 1107 posts
    February 28, 2021 11:38 AM PST

    I can't speak to desirability based on class' utilities (because it would appear that all melee DPS will be capable pullers), but I can say that the Rogue will likely be highest melee DPS in the game due to their dependency on other classes to optimize DPS (assuming that the rogue DPS will be reliant on backstab).  I would say that each "role" will have a "best" of that role based on independence/dependancy of the class to perform their roles.  Warrior, Cleric and Rogues likely won't have the ability to "efficiently" solo even the easiest of NPCs that others within the same role could solo - so they will likely be better within their respective roles for that reason... but I simply hope that doesn't make them the most desirable (like it does in every other MMO I've ever seen).

    • 11 posts
    May 17, 2021 3:59 AM PDT

    Nagasakee said:

    ...until we get to play-test the Monk a lot of this is admittedly pure speculation...

    This.

     

     

    • 50 posts
    June 30, 2021 7:28 AM PDT

     

    forums=speculation

    the more ideas for the devs to ponder the better. keep on speculating.

     

    • 9 posts
    July 3, 2021 3:01 PM PDT

    Personally i would gladly sarcrifice being the top dps to rogues if it meant that you can be a reliable group tank and not just a fill in for an afk/incapacitated tank. I absolutely loved tanking in groups as monk in Kunark and Velious. I would like us to sit just where we did in eq, great dps, slightly worse than a rogue but more than made up for by being able to tank group content. I would hate to be the one trick pony that rogues were in EQ. What i see so far in terms of design looks great but i wouldn't push the Top dps thing if it means losing utility.

    • 1334 posts
    July 5, 2021 12:28 PM PDT

    voldraxx said: Personally i would gladly sarcrifice being the top dps to rogues if it meant that you can be a reliable group tank and not just a fill in for an afk/incapacitated tank. I absolutely loved tanking in groups as monk in Kunark and Velious. I would like us to sit just where we did in eq, great dps, slightly worse than a rogue but more than made up for by being able to tank group content. I would hate to be the one trick pony that rogues were in EQ. What i see so far in terms of design looks great but i wouldn't push the Top dps thing if it means losing utility.

    Purely on the strength of your post count, I am leaping to the assumption that you may not know that at this point in development, the Monk has no chance of becoming a "reliable group tank". Off-tank was part of Monk's description early on, and even though we haven't seen that on this new website it's quite possible that is still part of its intended role. But Monk is primarily DPS and will fill that role when facing any serious, full-group-required content.

    A big part of Nagasakee's point is that Monk doesn't have - to our current knowledge - nearly the utility that a Rogue has.

     

    Sorry if I've completely misunderstood your point :)

    • 1898 posts
    July 6, 2021 2:44 PM PDT

    voldraxx said: Personally i would gladly sarcrifice being the top dps to rogues if it meant that you can be a reliable group tank and not just a fill in for an afk/incapacitated tank. I absolutely loved tanking in groups as monk in Kunark and Velious. I would like us to sit just where we did in eq, great dps, slightly worse than a rogue but more than made up for by being able to tank group content. I would hate to be the one trick pony that rogues were in EQ. What i see so far in terms of design looks great but i wouldn't push the Top dps thing if it means losing utility.

     

     

    I'd not loose any of the monk DPS to become a jack of all trades that is only usefull to a solo player like the Ranger was in EQ. Classes need an identity and not to be an easy button for players that do want to perform any role barely, as it solely serve solo and easy content and make the class completely irrelevant in serious cases.

     

    Jothany said:

    Purely on the strength of your post count, I am leaping to the assumption that you may not know that at this point in development, the Monk has no chance of becoming a "reliable group tank". Off-tank was part of Monk's description early on, and even though we haven't seen that on this new website it's quite possible that is still part of its intended role. But Monk is primarily DPS and will fill that role when facing any serious, full-group-required content.

    A big part of Nagasakee's point is that Monk doesn't have - to our current knowledge - nearly the utility that a Rogue has.

     

    Sorry if I've completely misunderstood your point :)

     

    I'd not say the monk is pale in comparison to the rogue utility as it's sole strong utility is smoke and mirror which is still up to changes. FD, mountain pose and backflip are powerfull tool depending of the situation than can be used to avoid requiring a CC completely or mitigating any previsible damage.

    • 3 posts
    July 17, 2021 8:19 AM PDT

    I would disagree with the monk out DPSiing a Rogue. Rogues pure function in to DPS, where a monk is has so many tools in their tool box. They can OT, heal, FD, and pull. Just the pulling alone will be needed for groups. A rogue cant do any of those things, their main role is to DPS. So out DPSing a Rogue, is out of the question for me. 

    • 129 posts
    July 17, 2021 12:37 PM PDT

     

    You certainly can feel that way Tormanator, we all have opinions and sometimes it’s really good when we disagree.   And I’m going to have to disagree with you on a few things.

    You mentioned a rogue cannot off tank, FD or pull or heal.  I think you are correct on Off-tank as I think the Monk is the only off-tank, when flexed, in the game, albeit only for a few seconds. This compares I’d guess with true tanks like warrior, dire lord, paladin etc who likely have less DPS. You are also correct on Heal too, but realize that the EQ Mend function has been drastically altered…no more the 50% (or at later levels 75%) heals, in Pantheon we get one attack with a cooldown that heals 5%.   Radically different and really only something to try and keep us in a tough fight.

    However I think everyone would disagree with you that Rogues can’t be the puller.   They have stealth/invisibility and this video shows Minus for three hours often pulling as a Rogue:  (66) EXCLUSIVE - Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Rogue PA5 Gameplay - YouTube   

    And that’s not even covering their, unique to Pantheon, Crowd Control Role!    Joppa mentioned in the Rogue preview that DPS will go down for the Rogue as they flex into the CC role, and I think that’s a very fair trade-off. In fact the general consensus was that the Rogue CC abilities might be OP. 

    But for damage?   Sticking a little dagger into a Mob (think giant, dragon, undead)  should not have the highest damage vs. other classes, (melee OR caster) it just makes no logical sense. Its a puny weapon and will always be whether from the front, the side or the back.

    You mentioned Monks as having another utility, Feign Death which may or may not be shared with the Necromancer when it comes out.  Note as well that FD which uses the Gate of Balance was ever so slightly "nerfed".  You can't just use it. You must make sure your the other Gates are not opened.  This may require Inner Fountain to be used BEFORE FD can be.  You may not always have time to use two abilities to save yourself.  I have always felt that FD ability was the Get Out of Jail key to avoid death, or the Bio-Break button, or the “if the Monk stays alive on a Raid he can rez a Cleric”.  But any normal group utility fight after fight after fight?  No.    And I was sad and frustrated about that. 

    Compare that “selfish” class defining ability to the Rogue’s set traps, defuse traps, pick locks utilities that a Rogue has, and are their class-defining abilities.  I’d submit those skills will be far more valuable to a group than my personal FD.  And that was my point of the whole original post…until this new Monk video…I did not see ANY Pantheon group utility from a Monk in a normal grouping situation.  So I asked for/hoped for top melee DPS.

    Now I have seen a good reason!   The Monk’s charged Blazing Fist ability, which looks a LOT like Marvel's Iron Fist's ability BTW,  knocks a mob down for approximately 6 seconds, a tremendous group benefit that can used in every fight.   Finally I see a reason for a group to want a Monk, having a very long stun as it were, besides a Monk's huge DPS and pulling, (which they enhanced with the Chi Spear and the Chase The Wind abilities). 

    However I was gladdened to see that pulling is not actually designed as the Monk’s main role.   It appears to be: single target melee damage dealing. I say this due to the two recent Monk videos released: we now are finally starting to see the vision Chris and team have for the Monk class.  It seems I’ve gotten my wishes: both group value and “sustained high level DPS”.

    Here’s ((66) Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Monk Preview Bonanza! - YouTube) he says “we wanted the Monk to be a very rapid attacker” and later around 8:50 into the video says “monks are focused upon Fist fighting AND AS SUCH [empasis mine] Monk weaponry will boast the fastest weapon speeds out of the itemization pool”.

    With abilities like Chi Burn, Joppa says [16:43] the Monk, as a damage dealer, “becomes an absolute powerhouse!”  and at [33:05] says “When it comes to their Main Role [mine again], … when it comes to executing their damage dealing

    I’m thrilled about this and cannot wait to test it in the next PA.   See you all there!  I’ll be playing a…Monk


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at July 26, 2021 3:23 AM PDT
    • 673 posts
    July 19, 2021 11:27 AM PDT
    @tomanator

    Rogues have a lot of utility, like smoke and mirrors, traps, and more.

    I hope Monk, Rogues and and Rangers are some what similar in DPS. But a good Monk can out DPS any of the two and vice versa.

    So i dont think Rogues or any class Will be pure anything. They All Will have some flavor to them.
    • 1334 posts
    July 19, 2021 3:41 PM PDT

    BamBam said: @tomanator Rogues have a lot of utility, like smoke and mirrors, traps, and more. I hope Monk, Rogues and and Rangers are some what similar in DPS. But a good Monk can out DPS any of the two and vice versa. So i dont think Rogues or any class Will be pure anything. They All Will have some flavor to them.

    I agree with all of  this.

    • 129 posts
    July 20, 2021 1:29 PM PDT

    good post both Bam Bam and Jothany!   I agree with you both too.  Can't wait until 7/31! 

    • 126 posts
    July 31, 2021 4:59 AM PDT

    with LAS i really hope, that i depends mostly what skills the classes have loaded. so if a group is missing an enchanter and rogue goes for mainly CC, then the dps of him should suffer for that. on the other hand, if group is missing a tank and a monk is loading more a defensive set of skills his damage should be lower than a rogue that focus mainly on dps. if they both focus on DPS only, the dmg should be about equal.

    • 766 posts
    August 15, 2021 10:57 AM PDT

    "It's not about who does the most damage, it's about how well you play your class."  - It's a quote, but I can't find who said it, or if it's exactly word for word haha, but in the stream the other day someone said it well!!  If youtube had the transcript up I'd find it easily, but for some reason there is no transcript for that video.  

    • 45 posts
    August 29, 2021 9:57 AM PDT

    I'm not overly excited about the Monk because of the "most" qualifier for feign death. Doesn't seem fun to die repeatedly because one of the things you were trying to feign death didn't fall into the "most" category.

    • 1107 posts
    August 29, 2021 10:23 PM PDT

    I know the boat has already sailed on the class roles, but reading through this thread made me wish and wonder how cool it would be to have the MNK and DL roles swap... Having a Monk tank and DL DPS role would've been sweet.

    • 2952 posts
    August 30, 2021 9:51 AM PDT

    Zircon said:

    I'm not overly excited about the Monk because of the "most" qualifier for feign death. Doesn't seem fun to die repeatedly because one of the things you were trying to feign death didn't fall into the "most" category.

    I imagine you will know beforehand (or at least be able to learn) due to disposition or specific mob type. 

    • 22 posts
    September 1, 2021 12:51 AM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    "It's not about who does the most damage, it's about how well you play your class."  

    *thumbs up*