Forums » The Monk

DPS Monk vs Rogue

    • 121 posts
    February 25, 2021 5:12 AM PST

    This isn't a post to anger Rogue mains, but I've been watching some of the rogue streams lately and it seems rogues will have far more utility in Pantheon vs say a rogue in EQ1 or 2.  

    This added utility will make them far more attractive to a group versus a Monk, who also appears to be heading towards being a DPS class who can also pull, and "maybe" still off tank, though that may not be certain. Indeed, until we get to play-test the Monk a lot of this is admittedly pure speculation.

    I think I'd like to see a couple of things improve for the Monk class to make them a viable choice versus a Rogue in a group that needs DPS, considering the Rogue has so much more added utility.

    First I'd like to see the Monk class bring some sort of additional buff to the group, something that really didn't happen in EQ until late in the monk's career, and even then was more suited to just raids.  I'm not entirely sure on what that buff would be, but I think it should be a passive Chi feature.  Maybe much more dodge/parry for fellow melee-ers in the group,  and a reduction in mana costs for casters due to the monk's tranquility?  Or maybe a group Feign Death, which sounds good but would largely never be used unless a certain group wipe. The Enchanter can ADD/regen mana, maybe the Monk could reduce its usage cost?  Whatever is selected I do think a benefit should be given to the entire group, melee and casters both.

    Second, and this may be controversial, I think the Monk's DPS should noticeably exceed that of a Rogue's, a change from EQ's late-life, now taken as gospel, huge mistake, and in fact Monks should be the top melee DPS in Pantheon.  The Rogue can backstab for sure, and that should be a deadly attack...but the Monk is a highly trained martial artist who dedicates himself to combat...not to picking locks, setting traps, climbing via ropes, tossing cantrips...etc.  His focus is 100% upon combat, and has specialized attacks "his body IS the weapon" etc. etc.  We have Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, IP Man, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Steven Seagal, Donnie Yen, Jean-Claude Van Dam, Iron Fist, Batman, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Superman, the Hulk,the Bronze Tiger, the Black Panther and even Captain America (remember in EQ the monk-usable Shield of Rainbow Hues?) and just a slew of others with huge "no weapon but superb hand to hand combat abilities", with agility/dexterity/dodge/parry/block skills, and a very logical case could be made that ALL of these names could be in the Monk class in Pantheon.

    Its worth recalling that originally,and for the first six expansions, the Monk in EQ WAS the top melee DPS class.  SoE/Daybreak even has a post in their forums about this...search on Megathread: Top EQ DPS per EQ Expansion to see I'm being honest here.

    Where are the famous rogues known for damage?  Reynard the Fox, Robin Goodfellow, and Ali Baba?  Puh-leeze.  And they do this high damage with the puniest weapon in the game, the dagger.   I guess the dagger would be best choice if you otherwise had only a rolled up pair of old socks, or an avocado.  :)

    I believe with a passive group buff, more DPS than any other melee-er, and the ability to pull the Monk would equal the benefit that Rogues will bring, making it a level playing field for group selection.

    Its high time to put the Rogue's damage output to a place they are more comfortable...in the back. (Tongue firmly planted in cheek)

    What do you think?

       

     

     (editted to add some things from the second post I could not post for some reason.)


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at February 27, 2021 5:20 AM PST
    • 2872 posts
    February 25, 2021 10:51 AM PST

    I think it is way too early to know, but certainly monk should not do more DPS than rogue. That isn't how this game is being balanced at all. All classes of the same role should have parity in performance of that role. No best in role classes. 

     

    Rogue bring some utility sure, but that doesn't mean monk don't/won't also bring valuable tools to a group. Monk already can lower the mana usage of the healers in the group based on old abilities found on the wiki by use of their own self healing, especially if they use some of those abilities while short term tanking the mob the group is fighting before using feign death so aggro goes back to the tank and monk goes back to full DPS. 

     

    Let's wait and see all of what the monk has in store before getting the pitchforks. 

    • 121 posts
    February 25, 2021 2:48 PM PST

    I agree to an extent Iksar.  But the monk in your scenario is really only helping the healer, and doing next to nothing for the other four members of the group.

    I'm requesting/hoping/begging for something we have innately that helps the entire group.

     


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at February 26, 2021 2:43 PM PST
    • 121 posts
    February 25, 2021 2:50 PM PST

    .

    I'm writing this AFTER Jothany's excellent post directly below this one, due my posting issues.  Jothany is 100% correct that we don't know yet what VR has in store for the Monk class.   But it doesn't hurt to show passion for the class in this section of the forum, at least I hope it doesn't hurt.

    I'm passionate about this because it seems LOTS of classes will be pullers in Pantheon, which while honestly a VERY good thing, may eliminate a "monk role" as predominate puller.   Thats ok because I hate pulling for raids :)

    The "off tank" role is gone from the new website, but as with several things in the revamp, that doesn't mean that role is gone either. 

    So I'm making a case that the Monk's primary role should be DPS, and due to focus, lack of distractions (other utilities) and core nature of the training/monastary backstory on Monks, with Sifus, Sensei's and GrandMasters, they should be at top of DPS output. 

     


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at February 26, 2021 2:57 PM PST
    • 1127 posts
    February 25, 2021 3:35 PM PST

    Nagasakee said: This added utility will make [Rogues] far more attractive to a group versus a Monk,

    I agree with your assesment, though not necessarily with the solution.

    I think that for whatever reason, the Monk's arsenal has been much less developed (or less revealed to us) than the Rogue's. And at this point I agree that the Monk isn't nearly as attractive to a full group as Rogue. If that imbalance is intentional, then I would agree that Monk should do more DPS than Rogue.

    Part of my assesment is because, with the 4th group role of CC in Pantheon, I don't see off-tank as nearly as important as it would be without a dedicated CC role.

    A DPS & off-tank class might shine in high end or raid situations as much better than having an actual 2nd Tank (whose DPS would not be near as good when his tanking wasn't needed), but since endgame is stated by VR as not as much of a focus in Pantheon as in other games, that's questionable as well.

    I also don't see self healing as a hugely useful group role either. Though on the other hand, a DPS with self healing might be a standout solo class, and with Monk's tanking skills might be highly useful as a '2-3 person group' class. Which would be good, but still wouldn't address the issue of not being sought out for full groups, which is obviously intended as a major part of gameplay in Pantheon.

     

    I agree that it's currently rather early to make a conclusion about this situation. There may be way more Monk abilities revealed before release than Rogue abilities, which could change the balance in different way. It's still a pertinent question to raise.

    • 78 posts
    February 26, 2021 1:31 AM PST

    Nagasakee said:

    Second, and this may be controversial, I think the Monk's DPS should noticeably exceed that of a Rogue's, a change from EQ's mistake, and in fact they should be the top melee DPS in Pantheon.  

     

    Yayyy, popcorn time :-) I am neutral lol

    • 1060 posts
    February 28, 2021 11:38 AM PST

    I can't speak to desirability based on class' utilities (because it would appear that all melee DPS will be capable pullers), but I can say that the Rogue will likely be highest melee DPS in the game due to their dependency on other classes to optimize DPS (assuming that the rogue DPS will be reliant on backstab).  I would say that each "role" will have a "best" of that role based on independence/dependancy of the class to perform their roles.  Warrior, Cleric and Rogues likely won't have the ability to "efficiently" solo even the easiest of NPCs that others within the same role could solo - so they will likely be better within their respective roles for that reason... but I simply hope that doesn't make them the most desirable (like it does in every other MMO I've ever seen).

    • 11 posts
    May 17, 2021 3:59 AM PDT

    Nagasakee said:

    ...until we get to play-test the Monk a lot of this is admittedly pure speculation...

    This.