Forums » The Summoner

Is Grapple the end of /pet taunt ?

    • 105 posts
    February 17, 2021 7:57 AM PST

    Elemental Greetings, fellow future summoners !

    I am worried about the ability of our arcamentals to taunt. The Titan gets a spell-like ability called Grapple  ("Your Titan lays hold of your enemy for X duration, forcing the enemy to attack the Titan" says the class description) which is basically a no-fail duration based Taunt. Does that mean the three other arcamentals won't be able to taunt ? Does that mean there won't be a toggable melee taunt for pets ?

    In a game like EQ, /pet taunt is a toggle. All pets at all levels attempt to taunt their opponent every few seconds (they do a taunt roll exactly as would a melee character), and the pet owner can toggle this abitlity on/off with the slash command which can of course be hotkeyed for quick use. This is a core feature which has a great impact on :

    • Pet control ;
    • Pet aggro management ;
    • Pet owner aggro management ;
    • Offtanking an add ;
    • Snapping aggro from a healer or a crowd controller who just got jumped by a mob.

    I really would like to know -if the devs have already reached this point in regard to pets- whether there will be or not a toggable pet taunt mechanism. It will have an important impact on our gameplay -especially our utility role and group desirability : will a summoner be able to quickly jump in to intercept an add with his pet ? To grab aggro with his pet from a healer or a crowd controller who has a mad mob on him/her and buy him/her therefore precious seconds ?

    Please feel free to give your input, I am very interested in hearing your thoughts on that topic, which, in my opinion, is pretty important:-)

     

     

    • 2973 posts
    February 17, 2021 9:42 AM PST

    I would imagine that grapple is their taunt, it gives a few seconds of total control but otherwise its up to the pet to generate enough threat from the other attacks it has. If it previously had no threat on the mob in question then there possibly a good chance that after the few seconds the mob continues back to beating on the healer or whomever else, requiring another solution to be used as follow up. 

    • 1388 posts
    February 17, 2021 12:54 PM PST

    In my opinion, an arcamental with an effective taunt seems much more like a skill for soloing than for group utility. I don't think you will get one. I offer a few details - some of which I'm sure you already know - for perspective on why I think that:

     

    While many non-CC classes have a CC ability like root or snare, the only one that has an actual taunt is the Monk, which is the only class whose description lists 'off tank' as a secondary group role (DPS is primary, of course).

    The classes in the CC role are really the first line of defense when a Tank looses agro.

    Pantheon is strongly focused on group play. While VR isn't doing anything to make solo adventuring impossible, they aren't doing much to encourage it either.

    As VR often reminds us, Pantheon isn't EQ.

     

    But.....we're still in pre-Alpha and anything could change by release.

     

     

    • 105 posts
    February 17, 2021 11:00 PM PST

    Iksar said:

     If it previously had no threat on the mob in question then there possibly a good chance that after the few seconds the mob continues back to beating on the healer or whomever else, requiring another solution to be used as follow up. 

    Exactly, that's what I am worried about, I think there should be a fair chance after a few seconds for the pet to grab aggro.

    • 105 posts
    February 17, 2021 11:23 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    In my opinion, an arcamental with an effective taunt seems much more like a skill for soloing than for group utility. I don't think you will get one. I offer a few details - some of which I'm sure you already know - for perspective on why I think that:

     

    While many non-CC classes have a CC ability like root or snare, the only one that has an actual taunt is the Monk, which is the only class whose description lists 'off tank' as a secondary group role (DPS is primary, of course).

    The classes in the CC role are really the first line of defense when a Tank looses agro.

    Pantheon is strongly focused on group play. While VR isn't doing anything to make solo adventuring impossible, they aren't doing much to encourage it either.

    As VR often reminds us, Pantheon isn't EQ.

     

    But.....we're still in pre-Alpha and anything could change by release.

     

     

     

    Thanks for this input, I was not aware of the fact the Monk would be the only class to get taunt (did I understand that right, not even Warriors ?? Sounds odd to me). However, I would not qualify Taunt in general or /pet taunt in regard to pets as a CC ability, it's just the ability to generate a sufficient amount of hate in a single row to be on top of a mob's hatelist, and it does not work every time, and it would be dangerous on certain mobs, so it's far from being an out of the jail free card.

    The problem I see is that if the Titan is the only pet which can taunt, it makes this pet much more desirable than the Zephyr and the Fury (Undine is another matter of course). Many Summoners will stick to Titan & Undine (once mastery is achieved) because Taunt is just too important both in solo and in group situations. It takes away some flexibility of the class imho.

    But you are right, we don't know much for now, I just hope the devs will take this in consideration. 

    • 1900 posts
    February 18, 2021 1:31 AM PST

    Adonhiram said:

     

    Thanks for this input, I was not aware of the fact the Monk would be the only class to get taunt (did I understand that right, not even Warriors ?? Sounds odd to me). However, I would not qualify Taunt in general or /pet taunt in regard to pets as a CC ability, it's just the ability to generate a sufficient amount of hate in a single row to be on top of a mob's hatelist, and it does not work every time, and it would be dangerous on certain mobs, so it's far from being an out of the jail free card.

    The problem I see is that if the Titan is the only pet which can taunt, it makes this pet much more desirable than the Zephyr and the Fury (Undine is another matter of course). Many Summoners will stick to Titan & Undine (once mastery is achieved) because Taunt is just too important both in solo and in group situations. It takes away some flexibility of the class imho.

    But you are right, we don't know much for now, I just hope the devs will take this in consideration. 

     

    I don't think it will be a serious issue tbh. Most games in the last decade have used pet over the standard quaternity : One that tanks, one that deals damage, one that control somehow and one that do some backup healing. While control has had it's uses, other than damage dealing pets usually fall back due to their poor managing of the role they copy, as they are vastly under efficient compared to a player of a similar role.

     

    I highly doubt any group or even summoner itself would dig having threat management screwed by a pet who would ultimately get stomped by ennemies and leave the summoner petless (or close to).

    If all pets deals the same kind of damage with only having their toolkit a bit different, that might be an issue.

     

    If they have passive stats that separate them from each other, meaning the tank pet would deal underwhelming damage, then it sure won't be an issue.

    • 697 posts
    February 18, 2021 2:57 AM PST

    Adonhiram said:

    In a game like EQ, /pet taunt is a toggle. All pets at all levels attempt to taunt their opponent every few seconds (they do a taunt roll exactly as would a melee character), and the pet owner can toggle this abitlity on/off with the slash command which can of course be hotkeyed for quick use. This is a core feature which has a great impact on :

    • Pet control ;
    • Pet aggro management ;
    • Pet owner aggro management ;
    • Offtanking an add ;
    • Snapping aggro from a healer or a crowd controller who just got jumped by a mob.

    Having played a magician in EQ for a long time, I get where you come from. But from memory, the very first thing you did in any group was to ensure to "/pet taunt off". Because you DIDN'T want to interfere a pet with aggro. You would normally only use "/pet taunt on" if you were soloing.

    If the earth arcamental will be the only summoner pet with a taunt, then I think that forces you to make a choice when joining a group: Is there a risk of adds? Do I anticipate that the healer (or casters) might need mobs peeled off them? Is is a group without offtank, or with only little CC? If any of these apply, then you could make the decision to use the earth pet right from the start, to support with CC.

    As to its taunting capabilities: We simply don't know at this time. Grapple might be on a short enough timer to use it every few moments. And maybe it has some innate hate generation too. I would hope that the earth pet can be used as a reliable "off tank".

    Another thing to consider: We still have no idea how long it will take to summon a pet. If it is quick enough, it might be possible to keep the "Summon earth pet" action on your hotkey bar and drop the current pet and summon an earth pet quickly if needed. In that case, you would have to make a choice if you wish to block one of your hotkey bar slots for the summon action.

    • 2973 posts
    February 18, 2021 12:21 PM PST

    Adonhiram said:

    Exactly, that's what I am worried about, I think there should be a fair chance after a few seconds for the pet to grab aggro.

    ...

    Thanks for this input, I was not aware of the fact the Monk would be the only class to get taunt (did I understand that right, not even Warriors ?? Sounds odd to me). However, I would not qualify Taunt in general or /pet taunt in regard to pets as a CC ability, it's just the ability to generate a sufficient amount of hate in a single row to be on top of a mob's hatelist, and it does not work every time, and it would be dangerous on certain mobs, so it's far from being an out of the jail free card.

    The problem I see is that if the Titan is the only pet which can taunt, it makes this pet much more desirable than the Zephyr and the Fury (Undine is another matter of course). Many Summoners will stick to Titan & Undine (once mastery is achieved) because Taunt is just too important both in solo and in group situations. It takes away some flexibility of the class imho.

    Well that all depends on how long the mob has been around and what kind of aggro healers or others have generated. Taunt is not the get out of jail free card it is in other modern MMOs, that places the taunter at the top of the hatelist. From what I understand of it for Pantheon is that taunt only temporarily locks hate to the user and it is in that time they have to work to climb up to the top, likely with a bonus to hate generated in that timeframe. Taunts that auto place the user at the top of the hatelist I feel are bad design so I am looking forward to this working different in Pantheon. 

     

    Monk are not the only class with taunt, no. As far as we know they are the only non-tank class that will have it. They used to be listed as "off-tanks" but that has since been changed, but they do still have some off-tank abilities meaning they can likely fill in as a tank for short periods of time based on cooldowns. 

     

    I imagine the titan pet will mostly only see use when attempting to solo. With the focus on killing single mobs at a time there is little need for it in a group with a tank. 

    • 217 posts
    February 20, 2021 1:59 AM PST

    In the September 2019 newsletter Joppa expanded on the Summoner to state that the Fury would be about 70% of a Summoner's overall DPS.

    We can likely expect the same or more from a Zephyr.

    It's therefore unlikely that when solo you would pull aggro from either of these summons with your remaining DPS.

    In a group setting you should either take a dedicated Control class or an offtank. Summoner pets acting as regular offtanks is an unlikely option in a group setting, perhaps some temporary tanking but not a sustainable option for a healer + Summoner to keep a pet up at the same time as a dedicated tank.

    We will see.

    • 105 posts
    February 20, 2021 7:37 AM PST

    Thanks guys for your expert and interesting replies.

    I won't reply individually to each of you, which would cannibalize the thread.

    If I summarize your comments, none of you sees the Summoner as a secondary CC class.

    This is one point of view I totally understand. Maybe I am too much influenced by my past EQ experience over 20 years, but as a mage in that game I did use my pets quite often in a CC perspective. It was very important in my gameplay to snap aggro quickly, with the air pet it worked the best of course. But I understand that not everyone agrees with this perspective, after all mage was primary a dps class and not a CC class.

    However, the thing with quick aggro snapping, if used wisely (do not do it if there is already an offtanker in the group for obvious reasons), it adds to flexibility and to group desirability. It also shows your comrades you control your pet and do know when to jump in to help saving these crisis or emergency situations. I like the idea of emergency management with your pet.

    • 680 posts
    February 22, 2021 7:02 AM PST

    Adonhiram said: "Does that mean the three other arcamentals won't be able to taunt ? Does that mean there won't be a toggable melee taunt for pets ?"

    This is correct. There should be no need for the other Arcamentals to ever Taunt.

    One thing I think needs to be mentioned is that each Arcamental is designed to have it's own niche.

    The Titan(Earth) is the Tank
    Undine(Water) is a healer
    Zephyr(Wind) is a Melee DPS
    Fury(Fire) is a Ranged DPS spell caster.

    So it only makes sense that only the Titan will have a Taunt ability. Just like you won't want a Rogue or Wizard tanking, you won't want your Undine, Zephyr or Fury getting agro, since they will likely just get 1-2 shot like your Rogue or Wizard would.

    Adonhiram said: "will a summoner be able to quickly jump in to intercept an add with his pet ? To grab aggro with his pet from a healer or a crowd controller who has a mad mob on him/her and buy him/her therefore precious seconds ?"

    Only if you are using your Titan Arcamental.

    And since I know that you'll probably be thinking: "Yeah but what about those times when we are running away and I want my Zephyr to keep the enemies attention while we get away."

    This is just one of the things that are balanced differently than in EQ, where you could use any/all pets as a last ditch sacrifice to give the group a few extra seconds as they flee to the zone. In Pantheon, unless you have your Titan active, you'll just have to hope you have somebody in the group with a stun or something to buy you those extra seconds.


    It should also be noted: Since we haven't yet seen the Summoner in action yet, we do not know how easily/quickly the Summoner will be able to switch Pets, nor do we know if you will or won't be able to switch pets during combat. It may be possible that if there are adds in a fight the Summoner may be able to Dismiss his DPS pet and Summon the Titan pet in order to start off-tanking the extra enemies. We just don't know yet if this will be possible or how long it will take if it is.

    • 1388 posts
    February 22, 2021 4:00 PM PST

    Adonhiram said:

    Thanks for this input, I was not aware of the fact the Monk would be the only class to get taunt (did I understand that right, not even Warriors ?? Sounds odd to me).

    My apologies, I should have said "while many non-CC classes have a CC ability, the only *non-Tank* class with Taunt...."

     

    The other thing I didn't make clear is that I see the Grapple ability as a Rescue. To me, a Taunt is a melee or ranged affect that only increases Hate but doesn't force the Mob to change targets UNLESS it happens to change who is on top of the Mob's Hate list. A Rescue forces target change no matter the Hate list.

    It seems acceptable to me for a Summoner to have a Rescue ability as a last ditch chance to escape death.

    However, giving Summoners a Taunt as well as a Rescue gives them a set of abilities that I perceive as much more useful for soloing than for group play. Abilities that I don't see any other class - except Monk - having in their arsenal. And which I wouldn't expect VR to give to any class because of the Game Tenet of promoting group play and not promoting solo play.

    I could be wrong on that, but it's how it looks to me with the current set of class abilities that I know of.

    • 1120 posts
    March 2, 2021 4:37 PM PST

    Something else to keep in mind is that the Summoner is not a "tank role"

    • 105 posts
    March 6, 2021 12:57 AM PST

    Thanks again, very interesting input from all of you.

    I like the explanation of GoofyWarrior who thinks only the Titan will be able to taunt and that the Summoner, if he has another pet out, in a group situation, will have to dismiss his current pet and resummon a Titan if he wanna jump in as emergency tank to buy the group some time to escape or regain control of the situation.

    This raises indeed the question of casting mechanisms (casting time, change of spell, pet chaining, etc.) in battle, and we just don't know enough at this stage to make further theories or assumptions.

    To comment Darch's reply, I beg to differ, the Summoner has a secondary utility role which includes emergency offtanking with the pet ; what is the point of having a pet if it tanks only when soloing. It should be a less efficient tank than player tanking classes, but it should be a viable side-option when needed in emergency or in unconventional groups.

    • 20 posts
    June 30, 2021 9:53 AM PDT

    Our Pet dies during /grapple that could mean we'll be a grease spot soon after. I'm assuming of course that the aggro will naturally come to us as the summoner of the pet.

    We always need to be aware of our aggro status whether pet or spell induced and /grapple sounds like we climb that list "right now". It sounds like a rescue move to a) save a tank or b) save a cleric which going to hurt us if the mob doesn't die before our pet LOL We don't don't have a casting time for our pets so chain casting a pet could be a option.

    • 37 posts
    June 30, 2021 2:58 PM PDT

    Rift Elementalist spec'd mages had an instant summon ability.  Basically you had your any other pet out and if you needed to intant summon your earth pet which had a taunt and I believe a root to escape or peel a mob off temporarily in a dungeon setting. In normal soloing you had the earth pet out anyway to tank for you as the others did not have the Defense or HP to take much damage.

     

    Same with the Ranger spec'd Rogue boar (Tank pet).  Your wolf was PvP and your raptor was DPS only.

     

    I've seen this with other pet classes in other games as well.

     

    I'm guessing Pantheon will be close to this.


    This post was edited by MalFelis at June 30, 2021 3:06 PM PDT
    • 6 posts
    July 1, 2021 7:00 PM PDT

    I think it's a decent tradeoff to have, you can either do extra damage OR have an emergency CC. 

    In groups with a dedicated cc class, you won't need the earth pet to CC. having a melee DPS Pet that can instantly snap agro seems kinda OP in my opinion. 

    I don't want this to be like Everquest where literally a mage can solo the entire game with little help from anyone else. If every pet can snap agro, and you have a decent healer, you have no trade off between damage and utility like you see in other classes like rogue.

    • 105 posts
    September 14, 2021 4:20 AM PDT

    laraiz said:

     


    I don't want this to be like Everquest where literally a mage can solo the entire game with little help from anyone else. 

    Sorry being late, but I can assure you at least that this is not true anymore since Kunark :-) No mage can solo the entire game and mage is not even the best solo class either.