Vexbrood I think this was less of a case of removal of 1 handed blunts, two handed blunts, fighting batons etc from Monk class and more a desire to simplify the class web pages.
I have no inside info at all, but I do think staves will be an integral part of the Monk weapon panoply. On the other hand Druids will be at best a pet type for Rangers... (sorry, just kidding.) I think the same will be true for the Druids, and all other classes: the text was simplified and reduced for the new web site. Perhaps, hopefully, VR could address this directly?
Nagasakee said: Vexbrood I think this was less of a case of removal of 1 handed blunts, two handed blunts, fighting batons etc from Monk class and more a desire to simplify the class web pages. ...I thought a big reason to move to the new site format was so that it was easier to update all the pages and to keep them up to date more easily?
Nagasakee said: "I think this was less of a case of removal of 1 handed blunts, two handed blunts, fighting batons etc from Monk class and more a desire to simplify the class web pages."
Well since the Warrior page lists every single weapon type individually, it does seem pretty deliberate that they did not include blunt weapons in the Monk page and not just a 'simplification' of the web pages.
I was thinking about this the other day because there are two major things to consider with the lack of the blunt weapon types for Monks.
1) Monks seem to have no 2-Hand weapon option. With only Martial Fists, Fist Weapons and Handwraps this means Monks combat will be more about fast multi attacks than large 2-hander slow swings. When I was going over the Dire Lord abilities they were showing on the Shake-up stream I noticed that the damage abilities were calculating off 'weapon damage'. For example Thresh does 200% weapon damage and Sanguine Blade does 150% weapon damage. Since the Dire Lord can use 2-Handed bladed weapons, this means that their 'weapon damage' would be higher while using 2-Handers and so these abilities will have higher values than when they use a 1-Hander.
If it will be standard for Ability damage to be linked to 'weapon damage' across all the classes and since Monks do not seem to have any 2-Hander weapons options anymore this means that their Abilities won't have the advantage of really high damage 2-Handers to get thier 'weapon damage' higher. To balance this, VR may make Monk abilities on slightly lower cooldown comparatively, or their Abilities might have a slightly higher % of weapon damage on them. Of course another option is that Dual Wielding could have an addititive effect on 'Weapon Damage'. So for example the 'weapon damage' could count 100% of your Main-Hand and 50% of your Off-Hand Weapon Damage when applied to Abilities.
Anyways it's something to keep in mind and we will need to see how they balance things.
2) There will be less Cross-Over in regards to weapons for Monks vs other classes. In EQ there were many weapons that Monks could use that were not specifically balanced for Monks, but it gave them some upgrade options to use in the mean time while they looked for more Monk optimal weapons. For example there were Blunt weapons that had decent Dmg/Dly that Monks could use but they had +wis +int rather than more Monk useful stats like Str or Agi. Monks could still use these weapons as they would be an upgrade from newbie weapons dmg/dly even when they were not optimal Stat wise. Of course this meant that there was competition for these items that might frustrate classes that those items would be better for. It would be difficult for a Cleric who might be excited to see that +wis mace drop, only for the Monk to snag it because it's a dmg/dly upgrade for him and there were very few Monk optimal weapons that drop at that level range.
With Pantheon not allowing Monks to use blunt weapons this means Monks will not compete for these weapon types with the other classes. But this will also mean that Monks may not have as many options for weapon upgrades as the other classes do. My guess is that to compensate there may be a tendancy for Monk weapon types like Fist weapons and Handwraps to be more common than you might expect across the game drops. Thus giving Monks upgrade options since they won't be able to dip into other classes weapon choices temporarily while they wait for that Monk specific weapon to come along.
When it comes to 'Staff' weapon types, this could also cut down on some of the Bloat in weapons since they can focus these weapons on 'Caster' type Stats rather than Melee damage dealer Stats. Yes Warriors may still be able to use Staff weapon type, but they are the only Melee class that can, but only because they can use every weapon type. VR may focus the Caster stats on Staves and just assume that Warriors will not complain much since they have every other weapon type available to choose from. It just means you might not see many Staff Melee animations in use.
Daggers and Maces/Clubs seem to be the only weapon type that is usable by an array of both Caster and Melee types and thus will require a large variance of Caster vs Melee Stats. Rogues being the most historically likely to use Daggers as a Melee although Ranger and Warriors can use them. Only Druids and Clerics for caster types cannot use Daggers.
Rogues actually do have lots of other options like Spears and Axes and Fist weapons but historicaly Backstab abilities have been tied to Daggers only. The Rogue class page does list Backstab and it's description reads: "Plunge your dagger deep into an enemy’s back, dealing high physical damage." Logically Backstab abilities should be useable with any weapon type that has a pokey-end such as Spears, Swords and maybe even Arrows. We will need to wait and see if VR wants to go this route or limit it to Daggers.
It's even possible that Backstab will just be 1 of several attack of opportunity types that can be performed by Rogues. Perhaps if you use a Blunt weapon they could have a 'Headcrack' type ability that has a Stun or Dazed effect. Or if you use a Sword or other Edge type weapon they might have a 'Hamstring' ability that causes a Snare or slow effect. Thus your weapon choice denotes which Opportunity attack you have available. This would give Rogues options that don't need to tie them to only using Daggers to be optimal. Using it as an 'attack of opporunity' like this could also play into the synergy where other classes may cause an effect that grants Rogues these attack of opportunity from any direction as the target is distracted and vulnerable rather than only when Behind the target. Or they could still require you to be behind your target, but when the synergy happens (target is vulnerable) these attacks of opportunity are more potent (ie more damage and/or longer stun/daze or stronger snare/slow).
Anyway, these are just 2 of the things to consider why they choose to take away weapon types from certain classes. It helps them balance classes and helps reduce on weapon bloat requiring so many different specific weapons to spread stat options across these weapon types.
For info: mallocfailure made a Spreadsheet that he posted in a thread: Armor & Weapons by class here on the forums. Here is a link to that Spreadsheet: Pantheon Armor & Weapons by Class (I hope you don't mind mallocfailure)
@GoofyWarriorGuy
Fairly possible. In most mmo's I played 2 handed vs two weapon fighting allways was a mess to balance unless weapons were reduced to mere stats stick. We've already seen the ranger having no 2 hander options and I would not be surprised if they did it partially to allegiate the complexity of making both styles competitive with one beeing slightly harder to gear due to requiring two drops instead of one.
I suppose you could say nunchucks are 2-handed weapon; a light, monk-friendly, 2-handed weapon perhaps. But not sure how far into ancient/classic/fantasy Asian weaponry you want to go.
If staffs became more druid-y I could be on board with that, I could see a druid absent-mindedly stabbing her staff into the ground to hold it steady whil eshe does something else and coming back to finding it- planted and rooted to the ground and sprouting buds.
I'm ok with the Druid losing Scimitars (if that was the intention). I was REALLY conflicted by the association of the D&D Druid being raped by EQ using some kind of weird hybrid rules in a sad attempt to make their own version. D&D Druid's primary strength was (and still is) shapeshifting... and their iconic weapon of choice was a scimitar (for some bizarre reason). You would think that they would 'prefer' metal or no armor (over having to skin and mutilate animals and trees) too... because nothing is more of the earth than metalic minerals that were never once alive... but whatever. (You can actually wear metal armor in 5th ed for this very reason per Jeremy Crawford - the rules say that Druid "prefer" to wear leather, not that they can't wear metal).
Add: I still think PRotF missed a huge opportunity to really make the Druid appearance amazingly unique. So much that could've been done with quest lines for Druids to be able to shift into different beasts... every Druid really could've had their unique appearance if they wanted. Instead the Enchanter will likely get "illusions" that somehow change your anatomy too(?) "Illusions" that let you fly or breath water and regenerate? Huh?
Iksar said:Shapechanging wasn't a major part of druid until D&D 3e and moreso beyond that. At the time EQ was made druid was still very much a priest class that could change into basic animals at higher levels a couple times a day.
In relation to GoofyWarriorGuy's points about staffs with caster stats: I wouldn't see that as an argument to remove those weapon types from monks (or druids). It should be fairly easy to ensure that there are crafted alternatives available for all level ranges.
I guess this is more about what VR envisions their monk to be, and that isn't neccessarily a 1:1 copy of the EQ monk :)
Based on the Feb 2022 update, it appears the staff is in for Monks (even though it isn't on the class page) ;)
• Created animation concepts for Monk staff special attacks.
I'd have to also echo the previous statements folks have made about ridiculously large fist weapons...my personal preference would be mma-like gloves with metal plates or even studs instead of blades, if those are options. (dual wielding 1 hand blunt as well - 2 beer steins)
As far as sharing gear with other classes, I don't think that many Warriors would choose a staff over a lot of other DPS weapon choices they have (although is possible), and while it could possibly take up space on a loot table for magic user staves, those wizards and summoners are also potentially using Daggers and an off hand, which would then take up loot drops that could be non-caster daggers for rogues and rangers (or warriors?). So they do have to share staves, but are sharing with other classes on other weapons and have their own gear slot with the off hand (which generally isn't for tanks or melee or non magic ranged dps).
Super excited to get more class info soon (hopefully!) :)